Cards meeting today (3/19) in OK with Murray

Discussion in 'Arizona Cardinals' started by az jam, Mar 19, 2019.

  1. Krangthebrain

    Krangthebrain DPOY

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    One of the reasons I flipped.

    I just can't ignore how good most of his tape is.

    His release is elite right now. His touch is very good. He can make every throw, and make every throw without a ridiculous wind up. I like Rosen's arm talent last year coming out, but Murray's arm is even better.

    I havent even mentioned his running ability. Murray is the best player in the open field in this draft. Easily. It's not even close.

    His intangibles are what sold me on him. The kid is a winner, an achiever. He was built for this. His father was a college QB, and he taught him how to throw. Every coach I've heard talk about him has said he's an amazing young man. His competitive edge and will to be great are next level.
     
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  2. slanidrac16

    slanidrac16 Registered User Contributor

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    But still there’s the questions by many. I don’t remember the controversy’s when Manning or Luck we’re being drafted. There are people who say Murray is sliced bread and more yet there are some that are saying he will fail against nfl defenses. It’s probably the reason we are so divided on this.
     
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  3. Skeeber33

    Skeeber33 Free Agent

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    Dude is going to be primetime tv in the NFL....whether that's with the cards or another team.

    I am not sold at all on Rosen. He's Jay Cutler all over again. He's not elite and won't win a championship. Not saying Murray will either...but his upside is far beyond Rosens.
     
  4. slanidrac16

    slanidrac16 Registered User Contributor

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    Can you really say that Murray has a bigger upside than Rosen? If Brady was coming out in this draft he wouldn’t be rated in the top ten Qb’s. Nobody could tell Brady was going to be this good but he got into the right system and blossomed into the goat. No one can really say Either qb has a bigger upside. We can speculate. I think either qb could blossom in this offense and this offense will look different depending on who is the Qb. Rosen could look like Ryan or cutler. Murray could look like MaHomes or vick who was exciting but won nothing. It might be easier for us all if we knew exactly what this offense is going to look like and what it needs to excel.
     
  5. Crimson Warrior

    Crimson Warrior Always a Gentleman

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    From the mouth of babe! :)

    I've tried to stay away from this idea out of respect for Josh, but if we're being perfectly honest, Rosen is part of the reason we should draft Murray. That is, Rosen failed so spectacularly last year, that it's reasonable to conclude that he doesn't have the potential to be an elite, superbowl-caliber QB.

    Not saying he's a bad kid or anything, or that he doesn't have a chance to be a good QB. I'm pretty sure he does have a chance to be good.

    And I'll preface this next question by saying maybe I'm not being fair, but if Josh were really going to win a superbowl someday, wouldn't he have shown just a little bit more than what we saw from him in 2018? Even with the limited tools available to him, shouldn't he have made a few more plays than the handful that we saw during his miserable rookie campaign?

    Or maybe won at least a division title at UCLA at some point in his college career? They finished fourth in the Pac XII South his last year in school. Really?

    In 2018, Murray took over games when his team needed him to. Just flat-out put the offense on his back, and willed them down the field. Can Josh take over a game?

    If JR is our QBOTF, great. I'll roll with it. I'll cheer like crazy for him on Sunday's. Maybe he will lead the Cards to championship someday. I can say with sincerity that I hope he does. I hope I'm completely wrong, the Cards don't draft Murray, and that Josh gets us a ring.

    But based on the current information we have about him, I would say his ceiling is 11-5, with a 2nd round loss in the playoffs, and that's not good enough.
     
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  6. Krangthebrain

    Krangthebrain DPOY

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    I dont hear anyone in the media or scouts saying Murray is going to fail. Its many Rosen fans on this board. That's about it.

    People summed him up by his height. If he was 6'2, a lot more people would be jocking him.

    Russell Wilson hasn't failed against NFL defenses, and I think Murray could actually be as good or better than Wilson.
     
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  7. BirdDroppings

    BirdDroppings Rookie

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    It only takes 1 person to start a rumor. Sports media makes rumors up out of their @$$ all the time.
     
  8. CardsFan88

    CardsFan88 Registered

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    One thing to think of is that as Cardinal fans, we've all seen a crap ton of bad years. We never got the #1 in the modern era. Until now. IF we are to suck with Rosen, it's far more likely we won't have the #1 pick, and thus not get the QB we want to replace him.

    In future years, guys like Tua or Lawrence are going to be #1 or very near it. If we don't have the #1, we are looking at giving up 3 first round picks to get them, perhaps even additional lower picks. Whatever it is, it's going to be a ton, and ONLY if that team already has its QB or isn't a division rival. We have the pick now, and if they feel Murray is the better QB and/or fit with what KK wants to do, I'll be fine with it, even prefer it.

    But people need to realize that the odds are, if Rosen isn't the guy, we're looking at the 3rd best QB, maybe 2nd best, in whatever year we want to replace him. People are just making the leap that it would be easy to get Tua or Lawrence. It won't be. If we're our historical 4-12 or 5-11 suckage, we'd likely pick 4th-8th.

    Whatever would happen with Murray, the risk and cost is a single pick, or less if we trade back. Either way he's ours if we want him. We can't say that about any QB in future years. A Murray in hand is worth Tua in the bush.

    We also do have a brand new coach, and I'd rather start KK off with a good fit from year 1 than wait until year 2 or 3 to draft a QB. By then KK will be getting a hot seat. It could be year 4 before a guy like Lawrence is in his 2nd year, and we aren't realistically getting him. This is the year to get everything aligned, with KK's first year and lowest expectations and most amount of time to have guys grow in his system.

    So here we are with the #1 pick, and the ability to choose whatever QB we want, and it happens to be a small, one year starter with electric ability our coach recruited out of high school. We need to take a long hard look because we're here and it won't cost us any additional picks. While history is replete with big and small QB failures, each guy is different, and the NFL and the rules are more amenable to smaller QB's then ever before. He has wow talent. If KK thinks Murray is a better fit, we should get him the guy he wants. If Murray hits, he hits big.

    Eagles won a Superbowl because they had two cheap, capable QB's on the roster. One was a vet from the depths, but there is no guarantee that Rosen would demand a trade or act a fool. I know the reporters had questions about his attitude, but those might be wrong since they never really had anything concrete to them, just seemingly assumptions.

    I'm fine with Rosen, Murray, Rosen+Murray, Bosa, Williams, trade down once or even twice as long as we get good value and end up with the best guys for our team.

    We don't know what we have in Rosen. Part of that is because we can excuse him on many things due to lack of talent around him last year. But he also produced almost nothing as a QB. Even in bad situations, rookie QB's often have a couple of breakout games in an otherwise miserable season. Rosen didn't. He didn't. I want Rosen to succeed, but I am absolutely not convinced he will be the QBOTF. He has a shot, but since we're not sure, we can't say we legitimately have one. He has some good traits, but they rarely showed up on game day last year. I was super underwhelmed by Rosen last year.

    Even my best friend picked up on my lack of passion for Rosen last season. He was like, you aren't sold on him. I had to be honest with myself, I wasn't, and told him so. I wanted him to show something, and he rarely did. The best stuff he showed as a QB his rookie year happened before the snap.

    I guess 4 games of over 194 yards out of 13 starts and 0 over 252 and only 1 Passing TD after Thanksgiving will do that. Matt Leinart had a far better rookie season. He was put in a bad situation, but rookie QBs often are, and many still have a couple breakout games. He didn't.

    I believe that If you aren't sure you have a QB, you need to keep looking imo. We don't even have to rest all our hopes of the next 2-3 years on Rosen, since we have the #1 pick. I hear all the time that this year isn't good for QB's, or that year isn't, and good to great QB's come out of that year. Occasionally there's a bum year or two, but as of recently, there's been a lot of talented QB's coming out the past few years, and whatever Murray's faults are, he clearly has some high level talents. Potential superstar talents.

    Bottom line is, we need to make sure we have a QBOTF or nothing else matters. Preferrably one that can lead an offense that can score 35-45 points on any given Sunday and can win a shootout.

    As Calvin Candie edited to say in Django Unchained.

    Calvin Candie: But one must not forget the most important thing in the gridiron game.
    Stephen: Mm-hmm.
    Calvin Candie: And that is a QB that can win games.
    Stephen: Mm-hmm.
    Calvin Candie: Now that should be your first, second, third, fourth, and fifth concern. Now, after you have that, and we don't know if we have that, then you can start to implement a grand design. In other words, first thing is first.

    [​IMG]

    Well, we don't know and we're sitting with the #1 pick. It's not a usual position, but here we are and convential wisdom needs to go out the window. We just fired a coach after one year, have the #1 pick, and hired a college coach. This isn't our year to be convential.

    To get back to #1 or otherwise get the #1 QB in any future draft, we're going to pay through the nose. Why not two bites at the QBOTF apple when its already in our hands? One that our coach can determine if he's the best fit for what he wants to do? Worst case, besides both flopping is we eventually have to trade one. But we secure the ability to find out if either of these guys can be our QBOTF. If we find one, who cares ultimately if Rosen or Murray gets traded for a 2nd round or 4th round pick? We could take the loss, and there's a possibility it might not be much of one, if the other one is decent.

    One way or another, Keim and the rest of the front office staff and scouts are going to be judged on whether they make the correct decision. As much as Keim trading Rosen could get him fired. Keim not selecting Murray or even Haskins could do it too. No matter what though, if it's 2020 and we don't have a legitimate QBOTF, after trading up for Rosen and then having the #1 overall pick, we've failed. It's a big boy decision and I hope we get it right whatever it is.
     
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  9. POISON

    POISON Formerly known as Okieguy

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    He couldn't be any worse than this trash QB we have now
     
  10. gamebird98

    gamebird98 Registered

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    Charlie Casserly posts on this board?
     
  11. Veer

    Veer Registered

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    It all comes down to if we have rated Murray higher than Rosen. If so, we can already run to the podium. Given his great accuracy, effortless release and once in a generation athletic ability for the QB position along with the unteachable feel to use it, it's honestly hard to see Murray being ranked below Rosen. Rosen was a top 10 pick in his own right, but is a prototypical pocket passer - found each and every year in the draft (Haskins) - who surpassed 60% completion just once in college (62.5%), and looked nothing special in the NFL, even when you consider the bad circumstances. For every Peyton and Eli, who "sucked" as a rookie but turned out a franchise QB, there are at least 20 or 30 Gabbert/Bortles type QBs who never get it and set their franchises back for years because they stick with them for too long.

    The Murray media hype is just a late reaction to him entering the NFL draft and committing to football. You couldn't realistically grade him or take him serious as a 1st round QB prospect when he was the 9th overall pick in the MLB draft and had no major success as a college QB up until just 6 months ago. I can only repeat myself, 6 months ago nobody - not even Kyler Murray - could have thought of being a 1st round QB selection, let alone a top 10 lock and favorite to go 1st overall!

    Lawrence, Tua... We don't know if they will still be rated highly next year or in two years. And even if so, will we have a shot at them? Considering how long it took us to finally have the 1st overall pick, I don't think so. Murray will cost just one pick. 1 pick! If we had beaten the Raiders at home - who probably sucked even worse than we did last year - we'd be talking about the 3rd or 4th overall pick. It's just one pick. If we draft well with the next two picks, I'm willing to take the risk on the highest upside player in the draft, who happens to play the most important position.

    I was pro Rosen at first. But the longer I think about it, Murray should be our pick. KK is the perfect guy to get the most out of his ability. If it was still McCoy running the offense, this would be another story. But KK has no ties to Rosen. SK will get the wild card by MB because nobody could expect Wilks turning out so bad and the Cards picking 1st overall.
     
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  12. Zeno

    Zeno Ancient

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    In what way is he Jay Cutler? It isn’t attitude or leadership that’s for sure.
     
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  13. RON_IN_OC

    RON_IN_OC http://ronevansrealty.com

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    I don't really give a poop about his lack of height or measurables...I do still care about his lack of personality, as seen in interviews, etc...and I won't be comfortable with the baseball option until he turns 30. And when Scott Boras is involved, trust nothing!

    This article was written basically a few weeks before Murray said he was all in for football.

    https://www.sfgate.com/athletics/article/Kyler-Murray-s-agent-A-s-pick-will-fulfill-13447657.php

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
  14. Veer

    Veer Registered

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    I think it's more about comparing their arm talent and what Cutler made out of it. Cutler, probably even more so than Rosen, had a big arm and could make all the throws in the world. However, he made too many crucial mistakes, too many missed opportunities on easy throws. Ultimately, he still made some "wow" throws each and every game and had a nice NFL career. But when it counted most, he would kill you with untimely picks, fumbles and easy misses. If we stick with Rosen and he turns out to be similar to Cutler, we won't win if we make the playoffs once in a while, while still being too good to pick the next franchise QB. Stafford and Bradford or somewhat similar in that regard, even though both were much better prospects than Cutler/Rosen.

    Settling for a Cutler or Dalton type QB is great if you are into 8-8 and some 10-6 seasons (only with a strong defense) with the odd playoff appearance and without much chance to win the Superbowl.
     
  15. slanidrac16

    slanidrac16 Registered User Contributor

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    Bucky brooks said it yesterday. If the cards or raiders don’t take Murray he’ll probably drop out of the top 10. If That were to happen would that be proof that not everyone believes he is all that is being said. We don’t know. Maybe the phones are ringing off the wall to trade up.
     

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