Can we blame Vogel?

NashDishesDimes

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I cant figure out if we need to blame Vogel or look elsewhere

Reasons to blame Vogel: Seems like no real offensive system, defense can be really bad at times, team just seems not ready to play, not sure players respect him

Or, do you more blame: lack of effort from players, bad roster contruction with no point guard, lack of time together, completely new roster, lack of player leadership

I think its always the safety valve for fans to blame the coach cuz we dont want to admit the team sucks. Knowing that, i still want to blame Vogel mostly. Coaches like Ty Lue get james harden midseason, look like trash, then he figures it out. The fact i dont see any improvement in their areas of deficiency is the main reason I have to look at Vogel. Most importantly, the fact durant is 35 makes the window very short and thus I understand giving Vogel the ax if things arent at least improving. The lakers championship had a coach on the floor with Lebron, in the bubble..
 

BirdGangThing

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offense wasn't the problem - we scored 129 pts tonight and still lost by double digits - we shot 59% from the field and 42% from 3 - the problem wass and has been defense and 4th quarters

defense should be there by now and it isn't - we were sold a fake bill of goods - dame picked us apart - portis dropped 19pts before vogel did anything about it and don't get me started on uncontested 3s

4th quarters are what kills this team tho - we should have offensive sets we can run in our sleep by now - im done with the isolation nonsense - between poor shooting performances and the league limiting the whistle it doesn't work - beal's the only one who can pull it off consistently yet he's the third option

good times
 
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NashDishesDimes

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offense wasn't the problem - we scored 129 pts tonight and still lost by double digits - we shot 59% from the field and 42% from 3 - the problem wass and has been defense and 4th quarters

defense should be there by now and it isn't - we were sold a fake bill of goods - dame picked us apart - portis dropped 19pts before vogel did anything about it and don't get me started on uncontested 3s

4th quarters are what kills this team tho - we should have offensive sets we can run in our sleep by now - im done with the isolation nonsense - between poor shooting performances and the league limiting the whistle it doesn't work - beal's the only one who can pull it off consistently yet he's the third option

good times

Not necessarily disagreeing but still lost the turnover battle and just simply didnt shoot enough threes. Is that because of a lack of offensive system? I dont know. I also think todays game was equally about the bucks just making everything, not sure if today is a good example of much
 

Raindog

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I blame both Vogel and James Jones. Vogel clearly has no idea what to strategically do with the players he has in order to maximize the team's chances of winning. And he certainly doesn't seem to be inspiring anyone to play hard for him.

But the lousy roster construction is on Jones, whose incompetence seems to often fly under the radar.
 

GatorAZ

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If you told me before the season the Suns would be 13th in defensive rating I would’ve told you Vogel is doing a great job. There seems to be lacking leadership as well as just poor roster construction by Ishbia.
 

Superbone

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I blame both Vogel and James Jones. Vogel clearly has no idea what to strategically do with the players he has in order to maximize the team's chances of winning. And he certainly doesn't seem to be inspiring anyone to play hard for him.

But the lousy roster construction is on Jones, whose incompetence seems to often fly under the radar.
I blame everybody. They all play a part in it. From owner on down to the players. I blame Ishbia more than Jones to be honest. We had a pretty balanced roster until he forced the KD trade. You could say it was a calculated risk but it backfired. Both Book and Durant are complementary players and this team is missing an alpha. We’d probably be better off with old Chris Paul. Take the Finals team and sub Nurk and Allen for Ayton and I think we’d really have something.

This team of mercenaries just don’t have it. The Suns lost their identity. Can’t put 4 solid quarters together. They think they’re better than they are or something. Missing the passion.
 
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NashDishesDimes

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I blame both Vogel and James Jones. Vogel clearly has no idea what to strategically do with the players he has in order to maximize the team's chances of winning. And he certainly doesn't seem to be inspiring anyone to play hard for him.

But the lousy roster construction is on Jones, whose incompetence seems to often fly under the radar.

Dont disagree but also hard to blame james jones because im sure Ishbia is a lot of it. If anything, james jones filled out the roster pretty well: Bol, nurk was a win, grayson was a win, eg not sure, royce was a win
 

Bufalay

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The whole team sucks including Vogel. Changing coaches is easiest way to improve things. Who knows how much things could actually improve with this roster though.
 

Mainstreet

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Dont disagree but also hard to blame james jones because im sure Ishbia is a lot of it. If anything, james jones filled out the roster pretty well: Bol, nurk was a win, grayson was a win, eg not sure, royce was a win

I'm not sure why it took so long for the Suns to learn they needed a rotation point guard and a more traditional backup center.

The blame falls somewhere.

However, it may be too late to fix it now.
 

Proximo

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I blame both Vogel and James Jones. Vogel clearly has no idea what to strategically do with the players he has in order to maximize the team's chances of winning. And he certainly doesn't seem to be inspiring anyone to play hard for him.

But the lousy roster construction is on Jones, whose incompetence seems to often fly under the radar.
How is it on Jones?

Ishbia did the Durant trade, and that's what all of our problems stem from. He gave up too much for him, more than Jones wanted to.

I didn't really like the Ayton deal at the time, but it's hard to say that it didn't turn out pretty great in retrospect. The Chris Paul/Shamet for Beal deal seemed like a good idea, and there was no way to dump their salaries because nobody had cap space willing to do so. It's true we signed up for a very hard to move contract, and it may ultimately not be a good deal, but it seemed at the time to be a good risk, so I don't blame Jones for that either.

The only other thing Jones could do was sign minimum salary players. They are available for the min for a reason, they aren't rotation players unless you get really lucky. We actually kind of did getting Gordon and Bol.

Yes the team is talent deficient, but it's because we have 3 supermax contracts that put us over the 2nd apron, and that happened because of the Durant deal and going all in - which is entirely on Ishbia.
 

Covert Rain

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The Suns have given up 70 3 pointers resulting in 210 points in the last 4 games. It would have been much worse if the Hornets were shooting better. That goes way beyond teams just having a good go of it. That might be one the worst 4 game stretches defending the 3 in the NBA all season. Even if players are taking some plays off that doesn't explain that stretch. The players have some blame but Vogel is awful.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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The Suns have given up 70 3 pointers resulting in 210 points in the last 4 games. It would have been much worse if the Hornets were shooting better. That goes way beyond teams just having a good go of it. That might be one the worst 4 game stretches defending the 3 in the NBA all season. Even if players are taking some plays off that doesn't explain that stretch. The players have some blame but Vogel is awful.
Exactly. It’s not those teams got lucky. There’s no supernatural force helping them drop shots. They are nba teams with nba players in 2024. You play crap 3 point defense you’re going to get killed. This is a players and scheme failure.
 

Proximo

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Exactly. It’s not those teams got lucky. There’s no supernatural force helping them drop shots. They are nba teams with nba players in 2024. You play crap 3 point defense you’re going to get killed. This is a players and scheme failure.
I agree and disagree. The hornets were left just as wide open and made a lousy percentage.

I don't think the 3 point defense has been good enough, especially against the Bucks. But against the Celtics the D was way better and they just shot the crap out of the ball.

The Suns players just aren't showing they care enough, and they appear to not even believe in themselves. The coaching stinks, but I have real issues with the players effort too.

Bottom line is this team is going nowhere, and I actually am beginning to think maybe the best thing that could happen is going out in the play in to force badly needed changes. If they make it to the second round - absolute best case scenerio IMO, this hopeless team will be given another year and I just don't believe there is any chance it can succeed.
 

FB94

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Everyone needs to take a bite of this poop sandwich. Some more than others get seconds.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I agree and disagree. The hornets were left just as wide open and made a lousy percentage.

I don't think the 3 point defense has been good enough, especially against the Bucks. But against the Celtics the D was way better and they just shot the crap out of the ball.

The Suns players just aren't showing they care enough, and they appear to not even believe in themselves. The coaching stinks, but I have real issues with the players effort too.

Bottom line is this team is going nowhere, and I actually am beginning to think maybe the best thing that could happen is going out in the play in to force badly needed changes. If they make it to the second round - absolute best case scenerio IMO, this hopeless team will be given another year and I just don't believe there is any chance it can succeed.
That’s just a natural outcome of some teams are better 3 point shooters. Aren’t the Celtics the best in the nba? I’d expect better results than against the hornets as a result. This isn’t bad luck. This is bad defense first and foremost. Saying it’s bad luck is just letting the players/scheme off the hook.
 
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NashDishesDimes

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That’s just a natural outcome of some teams are better 3 point shooters. Aren’t the Celtics the best in the nba? I’d expect better results than against the hornets as a result. This isn’t bad luck. This is bad defense first and foremost. Saying it’s bad luck is just letting the players/scheme off the hook.
I do somewhat think the last few games these teams have shot the leather off the ball regardless of defense. Part of that may be Suns getting other teams best shot..

Overall however, defensive problem has to be scheme/fit/personel or player effort - not sure which it is
 

Cheesebeef

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I do somewhat think the last few games these teams have shot the leather off the ball regardless of defense. Part of that may be Suns getting other teams best shot..

I am still bewildered by anyone who thinks this middling 6-8 seed Suns team that has never won Jack squat, is “getting other teams best shot”.

The Nuggets are getting everyone’s best shot.

The Celtics are getting everyone’s best shot.

Then there’s the Bucks, and everyone else probably ranking by where they are in the standings.

But the struggling Suns, who have stumbled and bumbled against most contenders all year long and might be a play-in team that doesn’t even make the playoffs is too? Don’t think so. This team probably doesn’t even get teams hyped to play any more than they do the Warriors/Lakers and even then, I’d still give the edge to those teams with Curry (who just won a title two years ago) and LeBron being bigger headliners than KD/Book, both of which have had considerable shine taken off their stature over the last couple seasons, what with KD blowing up the nets and Booker getting humiliated in back to back seasons in the playoffs.

Reality is we are solidly mired in the Mavs range. Two superstars and a team that no one really fears in the long run. Do you think teams are giving their best when they face the Mavs?
 

Superbone

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The whole team sucks including Vogel. Changing coaches is easiest way to improve things. Who knows how much things could actually improve with this roster though.
It's really too bad. Monty could have had a Pop-like tenure here if he could have overcome his player conflict/management issues.
 

AzCardsfan76

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Pretty good segment on the Suns at the start of this IMO.
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They are 100% correct. Legler called out the defense and the strategy as being lost, specifically the transition defense. They also stated there is no offensive game plan with the Suns. Legler called the effort against Boston as grotesque. Pretty much sums up everything that is said by the majority of us on the message board.
 

Yuma

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From Dan Bickley:

So, what are watching here?

These are all signs of a basketball team that is losing faith in the head coach. Or they are signs of a team leaking hope, a team with fatal flaws on the roster, a team that never had a chance to begin with. Or maybe the Suns just had a really bad weekend.
 

mjb21aztd

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Yes vogel def to blame one of worst suns coaches everrrrrrrrrrrr

U can not be num 8 seed with kd book beal that is a freakin joke

If i were owner vogel would have been history weeks ago he shows little emotion smilin after bout losses lost kd team lol

Eaither way he wont be in az long just a gut feelin

Im losin sleep as a fan over suns :( poffs stress makin it
 

clyde2tw

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For a defense minded HC, it's most disappointing that our team D has been atrocious the whole year, with exceptions of only a few games. Allen and Bol improved individually. But scramble and rotating + blocking out has been the main area of problems. Led by Book, when contracting into the middle in attempt to help out on drivers, they rarely leave the paint area whatsoever, leading to a lot of ensuing open 3s. And this is team effort issue that breaks down if one person failed his part in court awareness and effort. Not sure whether Vogel never preached that or our superstars ignored him.
 

Bobster

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I blame everybody. They all play a part in it. From owner on down to the players. I blame Ishbia more than Jones to be honest. We had a pretty balanced roster until he forced the KD trade. You could say it was a calculated risk but it backfired. Both Book and Durant are complementary players and this team is missing an alpha. We’d probably be better off with old Chris Paul. Take the Finals team and sub Nurk and Allen for Ayton and I think we’d really have something.

This team of mercenaries just don’t have it. The Suns lost their identity. Can’t put 4 solid quarters together. They think they’re better than they are or something. Missing the passion.

I think it's more the Beal trade than the Durant trade. The Beal trade locked them in with two shooting guards. They probably wouldn't have been any better off keeping Chris Paul, but they should have figured out some way to get something resembling a rotation PG somewhere.
 
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