Bulls @ Suns Wednesday game thread 11-30-2022

Phrazbit

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The Suns need better and more consistent outside shooting. I don't think we lack creators, we lack guys who can take better advantage of the looks created. That ain't DeRozan, he's ball dominant and can't shoot outside.

I'd rather get Hield for a fraction of the price. DeRozan is the better player but I don't see the fit.
 

cheesebeef

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The Suns need better and more consistent outside shooting. I don't think we lack creators, we lack guys who can take better advantage of the looks created. That ain't DeRozan, he's ball dominant and can't shoot outside.

I'd rather get Hield for a fraction of the price. DeRozan is the better player but I don't see the fit.
who are our consistent creators? I see Booker... Paul when healthy (though not nearly at what he used to be)... and... no one else. At least not at an elite level, and NBA champions usually have at least 2 elite creators if not 3 elite creators with several complimentary creators.
 

Phrazbit

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who are our consistent creators? I see Booker... Paul when healthy (though not nearly at what he used to be)... and... no one else. At least not at an elite level, and NBA champions usually have at least 2 elite creators if not 3 elite creators with several complimentary creators.

Payne is pretty damn good, he gets more assists than DeRozan with a fraction of the touches, Paul is elite, Booker is elite, a ton of other guys that can hold their own.

The shots are there, we need guys who are willing to take and can make them.

I don't see the answer being a ball dominant guy who can't shoot outside and is useless off the ball. DeRozan isn't exactly a creator ether, he averages 4 assists a game and I don't see him being on the court at the end of games if all our guys are healthy.

He's a very good player but I think he'd be an awful fit for us.
 

cheesebeef

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Payne is pretty damn good, he gets more assists than DeRozan with a fraction of the touches, Paul is elite, Booker is elite, a ton of other guys that can hold their own.

The shots are there, we need guys who are willing to take and can make them.

I don't see the answer being a ball dominant guy who can't shoot outside and is useless off the ball. DeRozan isn't exactly a creator ether, he averages 4 assists a game and I don't see him being on the court at the end of games if all our guys are healthy.

He's a very good player but I think he'd be an awful fit for us.
Payne, Booker and Paul is a really weak troika of elite creators if you want to win a title. Can’t really go anywhere else with that as baseline so I’ll just agree to disagree.
 

Phrazbit

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Payne, Booker and Paul is a really weak troika of elite creators if you want to win a title. Can’t really go anywhere else with that as baseline so I’ll just agree to disagree.

I'd be thrilled with another creator, but I just don't see DeRozan as that guy. Pairing Booker without someone who can't shoot outside, isn't much of a passer and only really threatens in mid-range ISO makes zero sense to me. Especially when he will cost a fortune.

It's like Minny getting Gobert to go with Towns... they're both good players in their own right but they don't compliment each other at all.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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The Suns need better and more consistent outside shooting. I don't think we lack creators, we lack guys who can take better advantage of the looks created. That ain't DeRozan, he's ball dominant and can't shoot outside.

I'd rather get Hield for a fraction of the price. DeRozan is the better player but I don't see the fit.
Who do you think are our consistent good creators?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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who are our consistent creators? I see Booker... Paul when healthy (though not nearly at what he used to be)... and... no one else. At least not at an elite level, and NBA champions usually have at least 2 elite creators if not 3 elite creators with several complimentary creators.
Lol borg
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Payne is pretty damn good, he gets more assists than DeRozan with a fraction of the touches, Paul is elite, Booker is elite, a ton of other guys that can hold their own.

The shots are there, we need guys who are willing to take and can make them.

I don't see the answer being a ball dominant guy who can't shoot outside and is useless off the ball. DeRozan isn't exactly a creator ether, he averages 4 assists a game and I don't see him being on the court at the end of games if all our guys are healthy.

He's a very good player but I think he'd be an awful fit for us.
When we say “creator” we aren’t talking about just creating for others. We are talking about a player that creates points. It can be scoring or assisting. Understand, this is different than a guy who scores points. When bridges hits a 3 off a Booker drive and dish or pass out of a double team he scores points but Booker created them. When derozan scores, to your point, he creates the points himself. We have Booker that does that at a high level and Paul (but as cheese said he’s slowing). No one else is good at it. Payne is inconsistent and can be flat out bad and really struggles against good defenders. No one else is a creator. Bridges and cam Johnson can do it slightly and definitely not consistently. Ayton is getting there, but only if he’s fed the ball. Shamet is awful in this regard. Washington may have it, but can’t rely on him. Lee is blazing from 3, but if you watch him when he’s got the ball and there’s no creator on the floor he’s just dead dribbling.
 

Phrazbit

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When we say “creator” we aren’t talking about just creating for others. We are talking about a player that creates points. It can be scoring or assisting. Understand, this is different than a guy who scores points. When bridges hits a 3 off a Booker drive and dish or pass out of a double team he scores points but Booker created them. When derozan scores, to your point, he creates the points himself. We have Booker that does that at a high level and Paul (but as cheese said he’s slowing). No one else is good at it. Payne is inconsistent and can be flat out bad and really struggles against good defenders. No one else is a creator. Bridges and cam Johnson can do it slightly and definitely not consistently. Ayton is getting there, but only if he’s fed the ball. Shamet is awful in this regard. Washington may have it, but can’t rely on him. Lee is blazing from 3, but if you watch him when he’s got the ball and there’s no creator on the floor he’s just dead dribbling.

I realize that. DeRozan creates for himself, but he does so in a way that, IMO, wouldn't really move the needle for us and also in a way where he and Booker would be like oil and water. I think that with Booker on the court DeRozan would be utterly useless. Are we only going to play him 15-20 minutes a night? We certainly couldn't play him in crunch time.

What is DeRozan going to do while Booker has the ball? The defense ignores DeRozan off the ball because he isn't a threat, he is a terrible three point shooter.

We could absolutely use another ball handler and we certainly could use more reliable outside shooting. DeRozan ain't that guy. I'd rather go for Mike Conley, Buddy Hield... hell, I think Duncan Robinson would be a better fit.

We biggest reason we lost to the Mavs was because we couldn't make open threes, we got TONS of them and guys either whiffed or were too scared to shoot. To win a title you need the ability to pour it on from 3.
 

cheesebeef

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When we say “creator” we aren’t talking about just creating for others. We are talking about a player that creates points. It can be scoring or assisting. Understand, this is different than a guy who scores points. When bridges hits a 3 off a Booker drive and dish or pass out of a double team he scores points but Booker created them. When derozan scores, to your point, he creates the points himself. We have Booker that does that at a high level and Paul (but as cheese said he’s slowing). No one else is good at it. Payne is inconsistent and can be flat out bad and really struggles against good defenders. No one else is a creator. Bridges and cam Johnson can do it slightly and definitely not consistently. Ayton is getting there, but only if he’s fed the ball. Shamet is awful in this regard. Washington may have it, but can’t rely on him. Lee is blazing from 3, but if you watch him when he’s got the ball and there’s no creator on the floor he’s just dead dribbling.
You just have to look at the type of teams that win titles:

Steph/Poole/Wiggins (easily the weakest champ in recent memory), but also had Draymond as a facilitator and Stef is still the great equalizer.

Giannnis/Middleton/Holiday

LeBron/AD - two of the 4 best players in the game.

Kawhi/Lowry/Siakam/Gasol/Van Fleet

Stef/Klay/KD/Draymond

LeBron/Kyrie/Love

Stef/Klay/Dray with Iggy/Livingston/Barnes as complimentary creators

Duncan/Kawhi/Parker/Ginobli

LeBron/Wade/Bosh

Dirk/Terry/Kidd

This is the ONLY team in the last decade that is comparable to a weak set of creators like Book/Paul/Payne. And they proved to be a one-off fluke.

After them. It’s right back to.,,

Kobe/Paul/Odom

Duncan/Parker/Ginobli

Then the Pistons, but even they had Billups/Rip/Sheed, while being one of the deepest trans ever.

Booker/old Paul/Payne just won’t be enough to get past the Bucks or Celtics. Those teams are not only bigger than us, they more athletic and have more options on offense with Giannis/Holiday/Middleton and Tatum/Brown doing what everyone thought George/Kawhi would do, plus good complimentary creators with Smart and Brogdon.

None of which is to say the Suns suck or are bad… but the ONLY thing that matters at this point after 3 years is winning a championship at this point. And I don’t see that happening against either of those teams without another consistent, dependable shot maker/creator, IMO.
 

Phrazbit

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You just have to look at the type of teams that win titles:

Steph/Poole/Wiggins (easily the weakest champ in recent memory), but also had Draymond as a facilitator and Stef is still the great equalizer.

Giannnis/Middleton/Holiday

LeBron/AD - two of the 4 best players in the game.

Kawhi/Lowry/Siakam/Gasol/Van Fleet

Stef/Klay/KD/Draymond

LeBron/Kyrie/Love

Stef/Klay/Dray with Iggy/Livingston/Barnes as complimentary creators

Duncan/Kawhi/Parker/Ginobli

LeBron/Wade/Bosh

Dirk/Terry/Kidd

This is the ONLY team in the last decade that is comparable to a weak set of creators like Book/Paul/Payne. And they proved to be a one-off fluke.

After them. It’s right back to.,,

Kobe/Paul/Odom

Duncan/Parker/Ginobli

Then the Pistons, but even they had Billups/Rip/Sheed, while being one of the deepest trans ever.

Booker/old Paul/Payne just won’t be enough to get past the Bucks or Celtics. Those teams are not only bigger than us, they more athletic and have more options on offense with Giannis/Holiday/Middleton and Tatum/Brown doing what everyone thought George/Kawhi would do, plus good complimentary creators with Smart and Brogdon.

None of which is to say the Suns suck or are bad… but the ONLY thing that matters at this point after 3 years is winning a championship at this point. And I don’t see that happening against either of those teams without another consistent, dependable shot maker/creator, IMO.

Virtually every player you listed (other than the bigs) is either a great three point shooter or pretty damn good.

We need shooting far more than we need someone who can dribble around and shoot from 12 feet. We have a TON of that already.
 

Phrazbit

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The more I dig into DeRozan the more I am convinced this is a hard pass.

His playoff stats are the things of nightmares.

41% from the field, 21% from 3 in 63 career playoff games. An effective FG% of 42.8%

For perspective... that's worse than Cam Payne's playoff shooting in a Suns uniform. It's significantly worse than notorious Suns playoff under performers like Marjerle and Marion.

DeRozan has talent, but he is among the most one dimensional scoring threats in the entire NBA, and the one dimension he brings is something we already have in bunches.
 
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JCSunsfan

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DeRozen is an interesting idea, but it depends on how he is used. He would be not be a fit on the floor with DA or Book. He is too ball dominant and he would crowd Ayton. He also is not really a fit with Payne, ok maybe, but not great.

I could see DD and CP3 being a pretty potent combo when Book and DA are resting. Can't see CP3 playing with the second team though. Of course you really do not know how these combos work until you actually try them.
 

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