Black Monday 2022 edition

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There are people on here that want to fire Keim, KK, and VJ.

...after winning 11 games, improving 3 years in a row, and making the playoffs for the first time since 2015?
Yeah, I know there are but not cheese or Ouchie. Cheese said that he & his bro were being called the leaders of the calling for everyone fired.

I agree with you that it's ridiculous considering the improvements.
 

dreamcastrocks

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Hate to ask but what is every ones opinion on Next Year (Saying) the team regresses Back to a 7 or 8 win team. My own thought is it will be probably be time for a house cleaning from the top down Just asking NOT HOPING FOR ANYTHING LIKE THAT MIND YA

If the Cards regress, Kliff will be fired. Anything less than 10 wins will be unacceptable. Keim will be there, but they'll decide that Kyler deserves a different voice and hire someone like...

... I dunno...

...Jay Gruden.
Has to be a firing, but like Delmar said, it has to be cleaning house. That includes Keim.
 

Stout

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I think your train if thought is similar to parents blaming teachers for a kids bad grade.

Sure teachers teach within structure, but the out of school learning is even more important than the in school. One of the things we learned from the Arians staff was that so much of development in the NFL is self development.

Kyler literally admitted to us that he isn't quite doing enough.

Ultimately Kliff will be held responsible, but I haven't seen any proof that Kliff has screwed up with Murray...far from it. I've seen him tailor his offense to fit to what Murray wants to do.

I just think the grass will likely NOT be greener. Kliff has accomplished something MOST Cardinals coaches haven't...he's led the team to an 11 win season and a playoff berth.
Being one of the winning coaches in Cards history is roughly akin to being the best hockey team in Ecuador lol
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I think your train if thought is similar to parents blaming teachers for a kids bad grade.

Sure teachers teach within structure, but the out of school learning is even more important than the in school. One of the things we learned from the Arians staff was that so much of development in the NFL is self development.

Kyler literally admitted to us that he isn't quite doing enough.

Ultimately Kliff will be held responsible, but I haven't seen any proof that Kliff has screwed up with Murray...far from it. I've seen him tailor his offense to fit to what Murray wants to do.

I just think the grass will likely NOT be greener. Kliff has accomplished something MOST Cardinals coaches haven't...he's led the team to an 11 win season and a playoff berth.
Eh that’s a bad comp. what would be closer is saying a teacher that doesn’t give a student who fails to study a D should be blamed when the kid doesn’t learn and subsequently continues to fail. The failure is on both parties. Are you saying every teacher should be considered to have been a good teacher and every failure is on the kid? Because that’s what I’m hearing from you now.
 

Krangodnzr

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Eh that’s a bad comp. what would be closer is saying a teacher that doesn’t give a student who fails to study a D should be blamed when the kid doesn’t learn and subsequently continues to fail. The failure is on both parties. Are you saying every teacher should be considered to have been a good teacher and every failure is on the kid? Because that’s what I’m hearing from you now.
Not necessarily.

It's just that you can't always blame the teacher. The NFL is substantially more slanted on self development. Coaching staffs do get players to grow, but for the most part it's probably 60-70% on the player.

Why I'm encouraged overall on Murray is that we have seen Murray grow. We know he can do everything we want him to do and we've seen it for more than a game or two at a time. That means he is putting in work and the coaches are clearly trying to fix his flaws.
 

dreamcastrocks

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Being one of the winning coaches in Cards history is roughly akin to being the best hockey team in Ecuador lol
Geezus.. Be easy on the guy.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Not necessarily.

It's just that you can't always blame the teacher. The NFL is substantially more slanted on self development. Coaching staffs do get players to grow, but for the most part it's probably 60-70% on the player.

Why I'm encouraged overall on Murray is that we have seen Murray grow. We know he can do everything we want him to do and we've seen it for more than a game or two at a time. That means he is putting in work and the coaches are clearly trying to fix his flaws.
See now your changing what I said. I don’t always blame the teacher. Nor do I put all of this on kliff. I’ve been entirely consistent with my comments on the board that there’s plenty of blame to go around and unlike all the posters who think murray is entirely at fault or kliff is entirely at fault or the slide is vances fault I understand that the greatest likelihood is that they all (as well as other players, and injuries) play a part in the failures. For kyler it’s likely primarily kyler abd kliff though. By your own admission above of its 60-70% on the player that leaves a WHOPPING 30-40% of the responsibility on the coach. If a coach fails in that 30-40% it’s potentially disastrous for the development of that player.

I mean let’s look at what that equates to:

Let’s say you have 10 tests.

Kyler scores 80% on 7 of them. Kliff scores 70% (let’s give a C, not even a D) on 3 of them. That’s a 77% average grade dragging Kyler’s performance from a B- to a C+. If kliff score a 65% that drags kyler to a C. If kliff actually fails it drags kyler down to a C- or even D+.

If we raise kliff’s influence to 40% then it drops each tier down an entire grade.

And if kyler is struggling (let’s give him an average grade of 73, so C-), kliffs impact at 30-40% becomes almost disastrous (72%; 70%; and 66%).

So I think dismissing kliff’s role in kylers success is just flat out weird . . . by your own metrics.
 

Krangodnzr

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See now your changing what I said. I don’t always blame the teacher. Nor do I put all of this on kliff. I’ve been entirely consistent with my comments on the board that there’s plenty of blame to go around and unlike all the posters who think murray is entirely at fault or kliff is entirely at fault or the slide is vances fault I understand that the greatest likelihood is that they all (as well as other players, and injuries) play a part in the failures. For kyler it’s likely primarily kyler abd kliff though. By your own admission above of its 60-70% on the player that leaves a WHOPPING 30-40% of the responsibility on the coach. If a coach fails in that 30-40% it’s potentially disastrous for the development of that player.

I mean let’s look at what that equates to:

Let’s say you have 10 tests.

Kyler scores 80% on 7 of them. Kliff scores 70% (let’s give a C, not even a D) on 3 of them. That’s a 77% average grade dragging Kyler’s performance from a B- to a C+. If kliff score a 65% that drags kyler to a C. If kliff actually fails it drags kyler down to a C- or even D+.

If we raise kliff’s influence to 40% then it drops each tier down an entire grade.

And if kyler is struggling (let’s give him an average grade of 73, so C-), kliffs impact at 30-40% becomes almost disastrous (72%; 70%; and 66%).

So I think dismissing kliff’s role in kylers success is just flat out weird . . . by your own metrics.
I'm not dismissing it. I'm just saying that so many people say Kyler's issues are Kliff are ignoring the reality. Not you in particular, you've been fairly evenhanded.

HCs are ultimately responsible, but the issue you run into is that if the player is the issue (which I clearly think is the case), sometimes NO HC will get any better out of them. It's not like Bill Walsh is waiting in the wings to come in and do a better job than Kliff. I'm of the opinion that there aren't too many coaches out there that would have done better than Kliff.

His offense for most of the season was one of the top offenses in the league. That definitely fell off, but still finished the year amongst the best.

I wonder if the length of an NFL season and Kyler's lack of preparation is the biggest issue, basically he starts to wear down as the year goes on and with the wear and tear of the season, he is no longer capable of going out there and beating people with inferior preparation. If this is the case, Kliff is kind of screwed, unless the Cardinals can lessen the wear and tear on Kyler and keep him fresher later in the season.

I'm a huge Kyler fan and I think he's ultimately going to be the player people think of when they think of the Cardinals 30 years from now. He just has so much untapped potential. But I think he needs to grow up a little and focus more on being a professional. I don't think he is completely blowing off his job, but I also don't think he realizes just how much better he would be if conducted a few more hours of film study. If I was the Cardinals, I'd probably try to talk Carson Palmer into helping out in the QB room as more of a mentor. Palmer was pretty studious, but he also is cool enough that he wouldn't come off as a fuddy duddy with Kyler.
 

Krangodnzr

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@Krangthebrain

Fuddy duddy?? You're showing your age. lol
I used that term with my granddaughter the other day and she looked at me and asked.. What does that mean? She's 19. Younger people don't even know what one is... hahaha
Bro....

Working as a recruiter has opened my eyes to just how much I don't know with kids these days. They're definitely very different than when I was there age. I didn't have a cell phone, social media, etc.

I have more in common with my grandfather's generation than the current one.
 
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