Beware the 4th Win

oaken1

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For me, the term shallow is an indicator of depth. This roster lacks both talent and depth so I would argue that it is more than "shallow".

So again, either Monti's primary goal for 2023 was something other than winning football games in 2023 and things are going to plan OR his goal was to win football games in 2023 and he failed miserably at it.
Agree on the useage...but I would posit that we have the depth...just not the guys they are supposed to be behind.
 

dreamcastrocks

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You can't play both sides of this argument. Either he intentionally put together a roster that would be one of the worst in the NFL or he is incompetent because he thought this was the path to winning in 2023.
This season was never that black and white, when your franchise QB was missing for half of the year.
 

cheesebeef

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Yes this looks like a man trying to lose his way to the first pick in the 2024 draft:

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so, then you must think Monty was a spectacular failure if his goal was winning this season considering we're the 3rd worst team in the league?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Well I 100% disagree with your statement that "It's Okay to be a Loser". That makes is sound like it's OK to go out and not put 100% effort out on the field.

And yes the Browns game was a crap fest. They got beat plain and simple.
Literally no one has said this. And cheese is 100% right.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I'm with you. They should have started the year 3-0, too. Definitely came out swinging and did beat a good Cowboys team early on. I think the guys have bought into what JG is selling and he definitely isn't selling "It's okay to be a loser."
If your contention is that monti set out to build a team that was a winner this year then you either have to say he absolutely sucks or that gannon and coaching staff absokutely sucks. They were built to go 3-10 and that has nothing to do with the expected effort of the players.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I of all people know that the Cardinals are behind the ball from a talent standpoint. It is 1000% obvious that this was a complete rebuild season even if the team never outright came and said that.

However there is a huge difference between having a shallow roster and saying, "hey don't worry, we got you, it's okay to lose, just give us 50%, that is all we ask". If they play hard and end up winning two of their remaining games I will be very happy. I'm not going to cry that they moved down 2 spots in the 2024 draft. I would much rather the team finish the season strong than purposely lose to secure the #3 overall pick.
You’re arguing with no one because literally no is claiming this. No one.
 

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Also remember that coaches have made specific moves in games that help evaluate players in games rather than actually win games. See Kyler against the Rams.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Not at all. I've been through this with you already.

Monti's top priority this season was to change the culture. Next up was to figure out who to keep for 2024 moving forward.

How do you change the culture with "It's OK to Lose"? That makes no sense. It's the reason they moved on from players like Hopkins. Hopkins would gladly throw in the towel with two weeks left in a season where the playoffs were out of reach.
By prioritizing anything other than winning as your #1 goal you are walking down the slope of “losing is acceptable.” The more you prioritize things other than winning (as you just admitted to - with not one priority, but two, over winning), you are literally saying winning isn’t as important this year. And 3-10 and no one calling for his head is direct evidence of this. How many GMs or coaches sport 3-10 records and don’t have the press and/or ownership breathing down their necks? Only those who expected to field a team where winning doesn’t matter.
 

cheesebeef

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Also remember that coaches have made specific moves in games that help evaluate players in games rather than actually win games. See Kyler against the Rams.
Yeah… I made this point amongst a host of others that was completely ignored.

The very fact that in the off-season we actually PLANNED to start Corpse McCoy to start for at least half the season shows this team was Okay with losing all on its own. The bevy of QB decisions after DURING THE SEASON (trading Dobbs for peanuts, elevating Stoney Case 2 and limiting Murray’s running plays despite them obviously being part of the offense we saw earlier) only continue to back that up, and that’s nothing to say of punting on FA or valuing next years draft over this one.
 

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I think the goal was to establish a culture. Get the right players, which takes time. So while you aren't trying to lose, it is understood it will take time for the wins to come. You want guys to train right, study right, play hard, play smart. You want coaches that promote winning and improve their skills to foster winning. You want a front office that improves and promotes a winning franchise. The season was all about fixing the things they have been chasing.
 

Chopper0080

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Cardinals cut Hopkins.

Hopkins has 6 receiving TDs. Brown, Wilson, Moore, Dortch, and Pascal all have a combined 8.

Hopkins has 894 receiving yards. Brown, Wilson, Moore, Dortch, and Pascal all have a combined 1412.

But, the goal was to win football games.
 

slanidrac16

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Cardinals cut Hopkins.

Hopkins has 6 receiving TDs. Brown, Wilson, Moore, Dortch, and Pascal all have a combined 8.

Hopkins has 894 receiving yards. Brown, Wilson, Moore, Dortch, and Pascal all have a combined 1412.

But, the goal was to win football games.
So the goal for the Titans by signing Hopkins was to win games….5-9. That’s a failure.
 

Chopper0080

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So the goal for the Titans by signing Hopkins was to win games….5-9. That’s a failure.
He is their best WR. They signed him off the street. He scored a TD today in a game they won by 1. He helped win a game. That is the goal. He had 3 TDs vs the Falcons in a game. That helped them win. Seems like he has improved the team and helped win games.

If you are implying that a player is only valuable if they lead the team to win 9 games, you are probably gong to struggle to sign any player. There isn't a FA on the market who comes with 9 wins.
 

GatorAZ

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You can’t blatantly lose or admit tanking in football because it’s a violent sport and guy’s livelihoods are in the line on any given play. So you have to play dumb about it even though pretty much anyone who sees this roster knows what’s going on. This isn’t the NBA.
 

HairZach

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He is their best WR. They signed him off the street. He scored a TD today in a game they won by 1. He helped win a game. That is the goal. He had 3 TDs vs the Falcons in a game. That helped them win. Seems like he has improved the team and helped win games.

If you are implying that a player is only valuable if they lead the team to win 9 games, you are probably gong to struggle to sign any player. There isn't a FA on the market who comes with 9 wins.
Cutting Hopkins saved us $8 million in cap space this year (which will roll over) and $25 million next year. Plus there were rumors that he wanted out, and rumors that Bidwill demanded Monti get rid of him after Hopkin sat out games while healthy last year.

If we had Hopkins we would probably have 2 or 3 more wins and a draft pick around #14. Without Hopkins we have what should be a top 5 draft pick and $33 million extra cap space to use on a player that is a lot younger.
 

Chopper0080

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Cutting Hopkins saved us $8 million in cap space this year (which will roll over) and $25 million next year. Plus there were rumors that he wanted out, and rumors that Bidwill demanded Monti get rid of him after Hopkin sat out games while healthy last year.

If we had Hopkins we would probably have 2 or 3 more wins and a draft pick around #14. Without Hopkins we have what should be a top 5 draft pick and $33 million extra cap space to use on a player that is a lot younger.
Again, a move that was made to accomplish something other than winning football games.
 

BACH

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And with this week's results, this thread just became somewhat irrelevant… Patriots, Jets, Giants and Titans all win.

4th win Will now move us to 4th overall.

I assume Panthers Will remain at #1. #2-4 is a battle between Patriots, Cardinals and Commanders.

Patriots have Jets, Texans, Packers and Titans. All winnable

Cardinals have 49ers, Bears, Eagles and Seahawks. 1,5 winnable game.

Commanders have Rams, Jets, 49ers and Cowboys. 1 winnable game.

Given How the Patriots played against the Steelers I Actually Think #2 overall is more likely than #4 overall.
 
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Dback Jon

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He is their best WR. They signed him off the street. He scored a TD today in a game they won by 1. He helped win a game. That is the goal. He had 3 TDs vs the Falcons in a game. That helped them win. Seems like he has improved the team and helped win games.

If you are implying that a player is only valuable if they lead the team to win 9 games, you are probably gong to struggle to sign any player. There isn't a FA on the market who comes with 9 wins.
Awesome foresight by Monty to cut him and convince no contender to sign him so he could help get us a better draft pick
 

Chopper0080

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Awesome foresight by Monty to cut him and convince no contender to sign him so he could help get us a better draft pick
Monti took the easy way out. He knew his goal wasn't to win football games. He was leery of having a talented vet like Hopkins in that environment. instead of trying to navigate those waters to try to acquire a mid round pick from a contender, he felt it was easier to just cut him. It is what it is. I feel like Monti has had a C to D first year as a GM. It is going to be up to him to change that and quickly.
 
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