Best Duo Under 25?

Discussion in 'Phoenix Suns' started by devilalum, Jul 21, 2019.

  1. devilalum

    devilalum Heavily Redacted

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    Even if Ayton was an exact clone of Shaq he wouldn't have the same dominating success in the modern NBA with the zone defense and all the other changes. Embiid is more the model big for 2019.

    I read once that Shaq hated Colangelo because he was the force behind all the rule changes. He felt that the changes spoiled the later stages of his career.
     
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  2. Krangthebrain

    Krangthebrain Captain of Team Murray

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    I think Shaq would still be dominant, because their are even fewer big min that can match up with him today than there were 20 years ago.

    That was the major appeal of Ayton is that he could potentially run rough shod over the league in 3 years, with only a few centers that could really match up with him.
     
  3. devilalum

    devilalum Heavily Redacted

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    Shaq struggled with the rule changes later in his career. Sure he was an amazing athlete but he had no shot outside of 8 ft. Even bigs have to be able to shoot the ball in today's NBA to be dominate.

    Young Shaq would be much easier to defend in 2019. I'm not saying he'd be useless. He just wouldn't be as good.
     
  4. devilalum

    devilalum Heavily Redacted

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    Wonder if Ayton's been working on a 3 pt shot? His range was almost there last year. A lot of his jumpers were just a couple of steps inside of the line. He's got a really nice stroke for a 7 footer.
     
  5. Mainstreet

    Mainstreet Registered User Contributor

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    I like Jokic and Murray but that is only because I like Jokic so much.
     
  6. SirStefan32

    SirStefan32 Krycek, Alex Krycek

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    See, I don't want Ayton to work on his three as a priority. I want him to work on sealing off his man and getting a good post position. I want him to work on executing his low post moves quickly in one on one scenarios and double-team situations. If he can learn how to fight for position in the low post effectively, and make quick moves once he has the ball, he will be unstoppable.
    He has a very good mid-range jumper already, so I really think that he will be able to add a three-point shot to his arsenal, but I really think fighting for position in the low post and executing his moves quickly should be his priorities.
     
  7. Chris_Sanders

    Chris_Sanders Super Moderator Contributor

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    Problems with that list are as follows.

    #1. Combine the ages because the best pairing should be the oldest.

    Embid / Simmons =48
    Jokic / Murray = 46
    Porzingis / Doncic = 43
    Ayton / Booker = 42

    #2. Pairings should have actually played together at least in a single game

    #3. Add their combined stats

    Embid / Simmons = 44.4 PPG 22.4 RPG 11.4 APG 2.1 SPG 2.7 BPG

    Jokic / Murray = 38.3 PPG 15 RPG 12.1 APG 2.3 SPG 1.1 BPG

    Porzingis / Doncic = Do not qualify.

    Ayton / Booker = 42.9 PPG 14.4 RPG 8.6 APG 1.8 SPG 1.1 BPG


    So it's pretty clear that right now the rankings are

    Embid / Simmons
    Jokic / Murray
    Ayton / Booker
    Porzingis / Doncic

    But Ayton and Booker have two years together to even get to Jokic / Murray's age. I also think they picked "25" just to get Embid in
     
  8. JCSunsfan

    JCSunsfan Registered User

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    That is a fair approach.
     
  9. Hoop Head

    Hoop Head Señor Caca Cabeza Contributor

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    I don't think the league is lacking dominant bigs so much as there are teams built around dominant bigs like there used to be. There are a lot of good Centers in the league now and Ayton didn't become #2 or even top 5 simply by entering the league. Each conference has 3-4 potential All-Star Centers right now and then a tier below that of 3-4 Centers that are quite good C's but not quite All-Stars.

    The top tier of All-Star Centers would contain Gobert, Karl-Anthony Towns, and Jokic. In the East the top tier consists of Embiid, Drummond, Vucevic, and Marc Gasol.

    The 2nd tier Centers around the league, which is where Ayton is currently, is comprised of guys like Nurkic, Capela, Steven Adams, Jonas Valanciunas, Cousins, DeAndre Jordan, Myles Turner, Brook Lopez, Horford, and Enes Kanter.

    That's a lot of good to great bigs. Like I said, I'd put Ayton in the 2nd tier right now and hopefully he becomes a perennial all-star but he has a number of guys to surpass to be that. I think he has the talent but the idea there is a lack of quality bigs is something that I don't think is true.
     
  10. Krangthebrain

    Krangthebrain Captain of Team Murray

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    I'm mostly comparing center play to what I grew up with in the late 80's through late 90's....and todays group just doesn't even come close to that crop. Where I would agree, is that there are a ton of good 2nd Tier guys. I just think the 1st Tier is what's lacking. Hakeem Olajuwon for example, would run roughshod over all of these guys, as would Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, and a few others.
     
  11. Hoop Head

    Hoop Head Señor Caca Cabeza Contributor

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    I agree with that. There is no comparing the Centers from the 90's to today, almost all of them were MVP candidates with Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, and then a tier below in the conversation for Defensive Player of the Year constantly in Mourning and, Mutombo. Those guys would be top tier now, no doubt.

    I think that's the major difference is we don't see the all dominant bigs. There are very good bigs but Jokic is the only one who really carries his team. I think Embiid could if he could stay healthy but he's had the benefit of a good supporting cast also so he hasn't needed to. Jokic and Embiid are the only 2 MVP candidates nowadays and they aren't real candidates, just sort of the token 5th place guys that fill out a ballot.
     
  12. devilalum

    devilalum Heavily Redacted

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    When was the last time a team with a dominant center won or even played in the finals?

    If you don't count Duncan you've got to go back to 2002. Even if you wan to talk about "bigs" instead of centers how many champs had a dominant PF or Center in the last 20 years?
     
  13. Phrazbit

    Phrazbit Registered

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    There are different ways to dominate. I think Draymond Green has been the 2nd most important player during the Warrior's run. Before Kobe got Pau Gasol he could hardly make the playoffs. Then there is Dirk with the Mavs and the Pistons had Ben and Rasheed Wallace, Boston with Garnett. I would say that most of the NBA champions in the last 20 years have had an elite big man.

    I will concede that Bosh was not a dominating big by any stretch of the imagination and the Raptors and Cavs also lacked one.

    You can win titles without an elite big man, but the requirement seems to be having a generational freak show who dominates on both ends... like LeBron, Leonard or Jordan.
     
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  14. Ouchie-Z-Clown

    Ouchie-Z-Clown I'm better than Mulli!

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    Why would we not count Duncan?
     
  15. CardsSunsDbacks

    CardsSunsDbacks ASFN Contributor Contributor

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    I think people get too caught up in what is working for other teams.

    Ultimately the goal is to score more than your opponent and being able to create match up problems is the best way to do it.

    That might be by having a dominant force inside along side a dominant perimeter player or it could be by having multiple dominant perimeter players, but I see no reason why a dominant big man can't be a player that leads to winning in today's NBA.
     
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