Ayton sorta sucks

[BC867]

Booker's plus minus over those two games also was a -8... does that mean he shrinks as well?

Or does it mean that they played the bulk of their minutes against the strongest lineups the those teams have... hmm.......?

Are you saying that we should expect our stars to be a minus against the opponents' strongest lineups?

That's why we haven't been in the playoffs in over a decade.

 

[Covert Rain]

Are you saying that we should expect our stars to be a minus against the opponents' strongest lineups?

That's why we haven't been in the playoffs in over a decade.

I think he is saying something similar to Ouchie. Sometimes plus/minus can be deceiving as to is what is transpiring on court.

 

[Hoop Head]

I've always thought plus/minus should exclude FT's unless that player is the one who committed the foul. A defensive player can get dinged down to a -1 when entering the game for the first time before ever playing a minute.

I think it would be a more accurate representation of what happens on the court while a player is out there without including those.

Offensively they could do something similar, only awarding the points to the player at the FT stripe. They drew the contact, they're earning the points.

 

[BC867]

I think he is saying something similar to Ouchie. Sometimes plus/minus can be deceiving as to is what is transpiring on court.

Yes, but it is different for starters (and stars) than players coming in off the bench.

What's your thought about that? That starters' +/- performances are much more
indicative than subs.

Except on losing teams with a couple of good players and little to complement them.

 

[Phrazbit]

I swing back and forth on +\- yesterday watching the game I checked stats and it had Payne as a +7 but he was playing AWFULLY at the time. I mean TERRIBLE. So the others are pulling his share during that run. It really hammered home to me the limited insight +/- provides.

Plus Minus over a short time frames is really hard to place any stock in. If a guy is consistently posting higher, or lower, marks than his teammates over the course of the season, it says something meaningful. One game or 2 doesn't tell much.

 

[Covert Rain]

Yes, but it is different for starters (and stars) than players coming in off the bench.

What's your thought about that? That starters' +/- performances are much more
indicative than subs.

Except on losing teams with a couple of good players and little to complement them.

Basketball is all about match-ups. That's why coaches always tweak lineups before and during the games. It's hard to find much consistency in terms of value if you look at plus/minus in a vacuum. That's why I enjoy looking at sites that track combos of lineups and plus/minus.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Sometimes line-ups stagger so that a star plays with four bench players, which affects the star’s plus-minus relative to the other starters’.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Are you saying that we should expect our stars to be a minus against the opponents' strongest lineups?

That's why we haven't been in the playoffs in over a decade.

The plus/minus stat usually holds true when looked at over a full season (assuming the player logs regular minutes) but in any one game or even in 10 or 20 games, it's not always valid when trying to examine a players performance.

Take Booker for example, he's out there with the starters but for much of his career he's also been on the court with the back end of the roster too. Over time you can see his value in the +/- stat but his showing will be hurt somewhat because of his time with the scrubs especially since he's still facing double teams and often the other team either keeps a starter on him or brings in their best defender.

 

[Phrazbit]

Are you saying that we should expect our stars to be a minus against the opponents' strongest lineups?

That's why we haven't been in the playoffs in over a decade.

My larger point was a plus minus over 2 games is not informative.

And I am not exactly rocking the boat when I say that the Clippers have good team.

 

[BC867]

For those of you who do not follow the Phoenix Mercury, here is a comparison I drew between
Brittney Griner who, at 6'9", stands out above all WNBA Centers. But she doesn't play like it,
because she is not the bulkiest Center in the WNBA. She seems ashamed to take advantage ...
of her advantage ... her height.

And Deandre Ayton, who also seems to be ashamed to take advantage of his skills.

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[Hoop Head]

For those of you who do not follow the Phoenix Mercury, here is a comparison I drew between
Brittney Griner who, at 6'9", stands out above all WNBA Centers. But she doesn't play like it,
because she is not the bulkiest Center in the WNBA. She seems ashamed to take advantage ...
of her advantage ... her height.

And Deandre Ayton, who also seems to be ashamed to take advantage of his skills.

What's the comparison exactly, that they're both Centers and supposed to be their team's 2nd best player? That's not exactly revelatory. Sure, if they end up having to carry the full load for their teams then the team might struggle. However in the Suns case, Booker has more years left on his deal than Ayton so talking about Booker leaving is quite premature.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

The most depressing thing is he mentioned on some podcast lately that he didnt watch tape until recently...

assuming he has seen himself play bball before, i dont know how he doesnt see that he can just tear the rim down half the time hes down there. Would anyone be upset if he got an offensive foul? Absolutely not. Also have to remember a dunk is worth more than 2 pts, it sets a tone and gets confidence going for the whole squad.

I also dont know how he doesnt realize he rushes his jumpers like crazy...the only logical answer is he just doesnt watch any tape

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He looked terrible again today. Just flat out lazy. There was one play where Boban, FREAKING BOBAN, beat him down the court for a layup and Ayton hadn’t crossed the half court. Another time the suns were on offense passing the call around and he never appeared in the frame until the 12 second mark of the shot clock. He’s a tremendous disappointment in the bubble.

 

[Covert Rain]

He looked terrible again today. Just flat out lazy. There was one play where Boban, FREAKING BOBAN, beat him down the court for a layup and Ayton hadn’t crossed the half court. Another time the suns were on offense passing the call around and he never appeared in the frame until the 12 second mark of the shot clock. He’s a tremendous disappointment in the bubble.

Yeah...didn't look great. However, the plus/minus with him on the floor was +19 today. So his presence definitely made a difference. In comparison Luca looked better but the plus/minus with him on the floor was -2.

 

[Muggz]

What were you doing at 22? Hes not a great center atm but if you look at his stats for his age and the amount of time hes been in the NBA hes right up there with Hakeem and Robinson.
Centers take a bit longer to develop. He may never be the guy we wanted but he is the guy we got. Yes he looks pensive and out of place at times but that can be learned over time. His defense has improved, hes shooting threes now and lateral movement is much better this year. Give him some time have faith in Monte getting him the trainers he needs to flourish.
Im not giving up yet.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

What were you doing at 22? Hes not a great center atm but if you look at his stats for his age and the amount of time hes been in the NBA hes right up there with Hakeem and Robinson.
Centers take a bit longer to develop. He may never be the guy we wanted but he is the guy we got. Yes he looks pensive and out of place at times but that can be learned over time. His defense has improved, hes shooting threes now and lateral movement is much better this year. Give him some time have faith in Monte getting him the trainers he needs to flourish.
Im not giving up yet.

I don’t think many have “given up,” but rather are disappointed in his effort and decision making to date. If you focus on him all game note the percentage of time he loafs up and the down the court or doesn’t make a move to react to the ball or players defensively. Frankly, his tentativeness on the court seems as much lazy as it is passive. And lazy is difficult to change.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don’t think many have “given up,” but rather are disappointed in his effort and decision making to date. If you focus on him all game note the percentage of time he loafs up and the down the court or doesn’t make a move to react to the ball or players defensively. Frankly, his tentativeness on the court seems as much lazy as it is passive. And lazy is difficult to change.

I don't think he's really "lazy" but it might be even worse than that. I believe he has played the game for one reason only, to provide for his family. At UA, he had the reputation for being the hardest worker, at least in practice, and that's where lazy typically ends up hurting the player the most. We have to hope that at some point, team unity and team success starts making him love the game itself.

 

[BC867]

What were you doing at 22? Hes not a great center atm but if you look at his stats for his age and the amount of time hes been in the NBA hes right up there with Hakeem and Robinson.
Centers take a bit longer to develop. He may never be the guy we wanted but he is the guy we got. Yes he looks pensive and out of place at times but that can be learned over time. His defense has improved, hes shooting threes now and lateral movement is much better this year. Give him some time have faith in Monte getting him the trainers he needs to flourish.
Im not giving up yet.

Which could be do-able if we put a power Power Forward next to
him. Rather than Stretch Forwards which are the current options.

 

[Hoop Head]

Which could be do-able if we put a power Power Forward next to
him. Rather than Stretch Forwards which are the current options.

What's do-able, he'll develop or you won't give up? Look how good the team has been with stretch 4's next to him this season. Why change what works? The space created by Ayton knocking down some 3's and playing alongside stretch forwards helped open up the interior for everyone. Abandoning the offense that won out in the bubble so their lineup looks more traditional makes no sense.

 

[95pro]

I don’t think many have “given up,” but rather are disappointed in his effort and decision making to date. If you focus on him all game note the percentage of time he loafs up and the down the court or doesn’t make a move to react to the ball or players defensively. Frankly, his tentativeness on the court seems as much lazy as it is passive. And lazy is difficult to change.

This, all i've watched him do is jog up and down the court. I've never seen a sprint to beat his man down court and seal them out early. I've never really seen him run down the court as a trailer and sneak in for a dunk.