Assessing Petzing

[BirdGangThing]

ive been very unhappy with this dude at times but ive been thinking about it - one of the things that bothered me was calling the same tough plays in the same circumstances ultimately leading to the same puntific results

was it stupid is as stupid does? idk - starting to think petzing wants certain plays to be successful at crucial points in the game - mostly 3rd downs iirc and he's going to keep calling them until we perfect them - because they're important

k9 just posted how well we did at rushing last season in a diff thread - how can we be mad at that? and that should further continue to improve specially with benson having a year under his belt

everybody knows petzing did mhj "no favors" with that d-hop 4th quarter route tree - but i think that's gonna pay off - you asked every oc in the league and they'll tell you the play will work... if you run it long enough

i also think kyler and petzing have essentially become connected at the expectation hip - while i don't think our coordinator is on the hot seat - it is his job to unlock kyler and mhj

anyways - just some convo to kick around - what did you like - what drove you nuts - and let's try and discuss this without the obnoxious petzingers - yeah im talking to you man lol

 

[Chopper0080]

ive been very unhappy with this dude at times but ive been thinking about it - one of the things that bothered me was calling the same tough plays in the same circumstances ultimately leading to the same puntific results

was it stupid is as stupid does? idk - starting to think petzing wants certain plays to be successful at crucial points in the game - mostly 3rd downs iirc and he's going to keep calling them until we perfect them - because they're important

k9 just posted how well we did at rushing last season in a diff thread - how can we be mad at that? and that should further continue to improve specially with benson having a year under his belt

everybody knows petzing did mhj "no favors" with that d-hop 4th quarter route tree - but i think that's gonna pay off - you asked every oc in the league and they'll tell you the play will work... if you run it long enough

i also think kyler and petzing have essentially become connected at the expectation hip - while i don't think our coordinator is on the hot seat - it is his job to unlock kyler and mhj

anyways - just some convo to kick around - what did you like - what drove you nuts - and let's try and discuss this without the obnoxious petzingers - yeah im talking to you man lol

The more I see, the less blame I place on Petzing, though I agree he carries some blame.

 

[kerouac9]

The more I see, the less blame I place on Petzing, though I agree he carries some blame.

The real question is how much of the running game was Petzing vs. Klayton Adams. That might low-key be the biggest story of the offseason that we look back on for missing.

 

[Chopper0080]

The real question is how much of the running game was Petzing vs. Klayton Adams. That might low-key be the biggest story of the offseason that we look back on for missing.

There is a world where both Petzing and Kyler are gone this offseason. I hope we don't see it, but you hint at that outcome.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

The more I see, the less blame I place on Petzing, though I agree he carries some blame.

He's part of the problem, but not the biggest

 

[FB94]

Easy to be connected at the hip when they are the same height.

 

[BirdGangThing]

Easy to be connected at the hip when they are the same height.

now that's a quality petzinger lol

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Easy to be connected at the hip when they are the same height.

I'm sure Kyler somewhere would be offended by that joke.

 

[oaken1]

The more I see, the less blame I place on Petzing, though I agree he carries some blame.

rumor has it there is an awful lot of pre snap motion in the offense this TC...

 

[DaHilg]

rumor has it there is an awful lot of pre snap motion in the offense this TC...

I sure hope so… and I pray for QB roll outs often w a MHJR drag routes and option/encouragement for Kyler to run at will on those plays. Get the kid outside the pocket for the love of gawd! He’s not a pocket passer and it’s waste of the special talent he has

 

[kerouac9]

rumor has it there is an awful lot of pre snap motion in the offense this TC...

Same as it ever was:

Thread '***Warning*** Training camp tweets with vids 2024'
https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/warning-training-camp-tweets-with-vids-2024.557830/

 

[GoldGloveschmidt]

assess deez

 

[GeorgiaCard88]

Loved how he committed to the run game in all 4 quarters

Hated how's terrible our passing offense was when we needed it in late games and long downs. He would straight give up on 3rd and longs

His seat is the hottest on their coaching staff for sure. A bad season will almost assuredly be the end for him in the desert

 

[Russ Smith]

ive been very unhappy with this dude at times but ive been thinking about it - one of the things that bothered me was calling the same tough plays in the same circumstances ultimately leading to the same puntific results

was it stupid is as stupid does? idk - starting to think petzing wants certain plays to be successful at crucial points in the game - mostly 3rd downs iirc and he's going to keep calling them until we perfect them - because they're important

k9 just posted how well we did at rushing last season in a diff thread - how can we be mad at that? and that should further continue to improve specially with benson having a year under his belt

everybody knows petzing did mhj "no favors" with that d-hop 4th quarter route tree - but i think that's gonna pay off - you asked every oc in the league and they'll tell you the play will work... if you run it long enough

i also think kyler and petzing have essentially become connected at the expectation hip - while i don't think our coordinator is on the hot seat - it is his job to unlock kyler and mhj

anyways - just some convo to kick around - what did you like - what drove you nuts - and let's try and discuss this without the obnoxious petzingers - yeah im talking to you man lol

My take on him has been it was hard to evaluate him until he had a "real" NFL caliber offense talent wise. First year due to both injuries and just tanking IMO we had very little talent outside of the run game so he built a strong run game. Last year we were better but still not exactly loaded at WR or Guard so he ran an offense again that emphasized what we did well.

This year even though the WR situation isn't resolved, MHJ should be better, the guards are hopefully better so I want to see him open things up more when it's beneficial.

My take is he wants to make teams defend us with their base run defense or only partial pass defense in there and he achievses that by playing multiple TE's. The issue is it means less WR's so if you're the #1 Wr(MHJ) you have to be able to get open you're going to see the best CB all the time. IN theory if the run is done well enough the safety over the top isn't that big of a deal because that safety is having to account for a possible run.

the lack of speed is an issue but it sounds like Benson is looking good in camp from what I've seen on youtube and it sounds like we'll see him in the passing game more often this year.

 

[Shane]

Loved how he committed to the run game in all 4 quarters

Hated how's terrible our passing offense was when we needed it in late games and long downs. He would straight give up on 3rd and longs

His seat is the hottest on their coaching staff for sure. A bad season will almost assuredly be the end for him in the desert

He gave up? Or did the QB?

 

[Cheesebeef]

The thing I keep thinking back on is the first five games of the Dobbs era where most of the board was surprised at us being able to run the ball pretty effectively and thinking the passing game was scheming guys open, especially downfield, but the problem was Dobbs couldn’t come close to hitting them. But we were taking shots downfield… and the rushing game was still competent without Kyler in there.

 

[BACH]

This is an interesting thread and discussion. Because you’re right. Petzing’s performance is perplexing.

There are some really good things and some really frustrating things. He pretty good, but there is always a "Yeah but....". As the production on the field - hot or cold with a lack of consistency.

The Positive facts:
- The run game ranked 6th overall and 2nd per play
- The screengame ranked 1st in the league in efficiency
- The scheme is favorable to the type of O-linemen on the team making their performance better than the talent perhaps should deliver - both run and pass.
- Effective short passing game
- Petzing got HC interviews, so no matter how we feel, the league perception must be somewhat positive

The negative facts:
- Worst deep passing game in the league with a QB that never had an issue delivering good deep passes before.
- Lack of innovation and flexibility in scheme. It was either 12 personal, where the defense knew it was a run or short passing or 4 wide, where the defense knew it was going to be a pass.
- Limited involvement of players outside the key players.
- Lack of adjustments when opponents successfully planned against bread and butter formations and play.

Assumptions
- The offense to some degree had to stick to the “boring/conservative” gameplan to keep the defense fresh as the defense was significantly lacking talent (either talent or young players developing)
- Designed runs by Kyler were kept at a lower level to protect him post surgery and to force him to play the system.

So what do I expect?

I agree that this is the year for Petzing, because there should not be any limitation factors - the offense gameplan doesn't have to compensate for the defense and there are no rookies or new arrivals on the offense.

My first priority of improvements is actually not improving the deep passing game. I think it's a prerequisite for opening the passing game to show better flexibility and adjustments. For me that's two areas.
- Show more from the clear passing formations and clear run formation (12 and 4 wide examples). Involve Reiman and the #2 WR in the 12 formation much much more. And do more from the 4 wide - put a TE wide and motion in for a run play or run WR screens.
- Willingness to adjust. I was screaming at the TV in the first Seahawks game. The run is build on gap scheme with a lot of pulling especially from the guards. Seahawks just lined one of the best penetrating DTs in the gap and let him shoot it, busting up the plays. No adjustments. Pulling guards were still called and Williams was 3 yards in the backfield within 1 sec. part of this is on Froholdt, but Froholdt is calling within the parameters given by Petzing and they were clearly not prepared for this. That is on Petzing.

Coming back to the deep passing game.
MHJ taking a step up will help.
I'm higher on Zay Jones than most here. Doesn't mean that I think he's an awesome player, but that he is much better than he gets credit for and how little he was used last season. It's strange, because the very very few deep shots to Jones last season were quite successful resulting in catches or PI. He needs to be incorporated more in the scheme.

I like Michael Wilson, but he's just the same style of receiver as MHJ and McBride - but less talented.
A different receiver type is needed, so other receivers need to be involved. I would like to see Jones more, but also to see Dortch being used creatively and the two speed WRs need to see the field to pose a thread that defenses have to respect.

Will these adjustments solve all issues? Probably not, but it will make it good enough to execute the scheme without the offense going nowhere in several games.

 

[oaken1]

This is an interesting thread and discussion. Because you’re right. Petzing’s performance is perplexing.

There are some really good things and some really frustrating things. He pretty good, but there is always a "Yeah but....". As the production on the field - hot or cold with a lack of consistency.

The Positive facts:
- The run game ranked 6th overall and 2nd per play
- The screengame ranked 1st in the league in efficiency
- The scheme is favorable to the type of O-linemen on the team making their performance better than the talent perhaps should deliver - both run and pass.
- Effective short passing game
- Petzing got HC interviews, so no matter how we feel, the league perception must be somewhat positive

The negative facts:
- Worst deep passing game in the league with a QB that never had an issue delivering good deep passes before.
- Lack of innovation and flexibility in scheme. It was either 12 personal, where the defense knew it was a run or short passing or 4 wide, where the defense knew it was going to be a pass.
- Limited involvement of players outside the key players.
- Lack of adjustments when opponents successfully planned against bread and butter formations and play.

Assumptions
- The offense to some degree had to stick to the “boring/conservative” gameplan to keep the defense fresh as the defense was significantly lacking talent (either talent or young players developing)
- Designed runs by Kyler were kept at a lower level to protect him post surgery and to force him to play the system.

So what do I expect?

I agree that this is the year for Petzing, because there should not be any limitation factors - the offense gameplan doesn't have to compensate for the defense and there are no rookies or new arrivals on the offense.

My first priority of improvements is actually not improving the deep passing game. I think it's a prerequisite for opening the passing game to show better flexibility and adjustments. For me that's two areas.
- Show more from the clear passing formations and clear run formation (12 and 4 wide examples). Involve Reiman and the #2 WR in the 12 formation much much more. And do more from the 4 wide - put a TE wide and motion in for a run play or run WR screens.
- Willingness to adjust. I was screaming at the TV in the first Seahawks game. The run is build on gap scheme with a lot of pulling especially from the guards. Seahawks just lined one of the best penetrating DTs in the gap and let him shoot it, busting up the plays. No adjustments. Pulling guards were still called and Williams was 3 yards in the backfield within 1 sec. part of this is on Froholdt, but Froholdt is calling within the parameters given by Petzing and they were clearly not prepared for this. That is on Petzing.

Coming back to the deep passing game.
MHJ taking a step up will help.
I'm higher on Zay Jones than most here. Doesn't mean that I think he's an awesome player, but that he is much better than he gets credit for and how little he was used last season. It's strange, because the very very few deep shots to Jones last season were quite successful resulting in catches or PI. He needs to be incorporated more in the scheme.

I like Michael Wilson, but he's just the same style of receiver as MHJ and McBride - but less talented.
A different receiver type is needed, so other receivers need to be involved. I would like to see Jones more, but also to see Dortch being used creatively and the two speed WRs need to see the field to pose a thread that defenses have to respect.

Will these adjustments solve all issues? Probably not, but it will make it good enough to execute the scheme without the offense going nowhere in several games.

From listening to the Petzing he seems to think our explosive plays will increase. Just as soon as anyone other than Trey McBride learns to break a tackle and get some YAC...
He ain't wrong.

 

[kerouac9]

It was either 12 personal, where the defense knew it was a run or short passing or 4 wide, where the defense knew it was going to be a pass.

This is objectively false. Cards ran four-wide at the lowest rate in the NFL last year. They were 27th in 11 personnel frequency and they were still in it a majority of the time.

 

[BACH]

This is objectively false. Cards ran four-wide at the lowest rate in the NFL last year. They were 27th in 11 personnel frequency and they were still in it a majority of the time.

It was an example to illustrate that it was either clear run formation or pass formation. I even write that in brackets. ‍

 

[kerouac9]

It was an example to illustrate that it was either clear run formation or pass formation. I even write that in brackets. ‍

Weird because the part I quoted was in a section labeled “facts.”

So, like, not facts then?

Cards passed out of 11 personnel at the third-highest rate in the league last year—68% of the time. Only New Orleans and Miami passed out of that formation at a higher rate. The median rate was a little over 62% though; it’s just a passing formation.

 

[oaken1]

This is objectively false. Cards ran four-wide at the lowest rate in the NFL last year. They were 27th in 11 personnel frequency and they were still in it a majority of the time.

I know I'm in the minority on this...but i would like to see us running some 21 and 22
Lots of sneaky plays in 22 personnel....especially when you can field 2 TE's with good hands....
Couple motions and we can be in 20 with the defense stuck with run stuffers

 

[kerouac9]

I know I'm in the minority on this...but i would like to see us running some 21 and 22
Lots of sneaky plays in 22 personnel....especially when you can field 2 TE's with good hands....
Couple motions and we can be in 20 with the defense stuck with run stuffers

We were 27th in 21 personnel frequency—.48% of the time. San Fran ran it almost one third of the time.

Cards ran 22 personnel once last year.

We’re already congested in the middle of the field; hard to imagine us wanting to do it even more.

 

[oaken1]

We were 27th in 21 personnel frequency—.48% of the time. San Fran ran it almost one third of the time.

Cards ran 22 personnel once last year.

We’re already congested in the middle of the field; hard to imagine us wanting to do it even more.

Don't have to stay in the middle. Just use the package to dictate defensive personnel

 

[BACH]

Weird because the part I quoted was in a section labeled “facts.”

So, like, not facts then?

Cards passed out of 11 personnel at the third-highest rate in the league last year—68% of the time. Only New Orleans and Miami passed out of that formation at a higher rate. The median rate was a little over 62% though; it’s just a passing formation.

The specific formations were labeled as examples and therefore not facts.

Was it a fact is that there were clear change of formation between run/pass downs and passing downs, so the defenses didn’t have to guess. Yes.

I believe that point is obvious for everyone but you. It’s what I literally write.