Actually impressed by Andy Isabella

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dreamcastrocks

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This is a non-sequitur. My belief is that for the first six weeks of the season when we're in 11 personnel it'll be Wesley and Green on the outside and Brown in the slot. That allows everyone to be in their best position to make plays.

If you put Brown outside and Moore in the slot then you're (probably) limiting the playmaking ability of Brown to get Moore touches in the slot (where he's been limited historically).
Sure, but when you have lemons right?

Wondering what we do if Hollywood goes down with another hammy is not any different than D-Hop being down the first 6. At least the coaches had all offseason to prepare for this...
 

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Sure, but when you have lemons right?

Wondering what we do if Hollywood goes down with another hammy is not any different than D-Hop being down the first 6. At least the coaches had all offseason to prepare for this...
It compounds the problem of DHop being out for 6 weeks, obviously. If you have a bunch of midgets left over your have a problem.
 

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I don't think they will keep Isabella. With Hopkins out for the first six weeks I believe will go with either Wesley or Marcel Ateman for their size, along with Dortch and Boldin.
 
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dreamcastrocks

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It compounds the problem of DHop being out for 6 weeks, obviously. If you have a bunch of midgets left over your have a problem.
Would the team have traded for Hollywood if DHop wasn't suspended? Maybe he is the makeshift replacement until he gets back.
 

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I don't think they will keep Isabella. With Hopkins out for the first six weeks I believe will go with either Wesley or Marcel Ateman for their size, along with Dortch and Boldin.
I think Wesley and Dortch are locks -- probably will be AI, Ateman, and Boldin battling for the last spot -- and then we'll see what happens come week 7.
 

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After finally watching the game...my main comment about AI is that he hasn't given up. His attitude on the field and sideline is very upbeat and high energy. He's not acting like it's a forgone conclusion that he will be cut or trading and that's a good thing. As long as he has fight, he has a chance.
 
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dreamcastrocks

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I hope so. Foregoing a cost-controlled five years because you have a six-game problem is extremely bad planning.
Only if you trust your GM to make the right pick. I don't. Never have.
 

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Cool story, but Brown is likely to be running DHop’s routes early in the year, and those patterns look exactly like what made him one of the more inefficient starting receivers in the NFL last year.

Let’s say it’s an unknown at this point. And it’s maybe a problem if Wesley can’t get healthy in the next month.

I think we're obviously going to miss D Hop it's where I think having Ertz the whole year will really help. Kyler had a nice rapport with Ertz and if that carries over with more help outside from Hollywood and Rondale we might not look as bad as we did without D Hop last year.

The thing with D Hop is he literally makes the field wider because his catch radius allows Kyler to throw balls a few feet out of bounds on the left side and he routinely catches them inbounds, and he's almost always open because even when he's not, he just catches the ball anyways. It's a hell of a security blanket.

We're going to have to wait and hope everyone stays healthy but the first game with D Hop back is going to be very interesting to see is Hollywood and Rondale happy he's back for more help or mad their targets went down?

And probably wishful thinking but I kind of expect D Hop to have a huge year, I think the injuries last year and the suspension have knocked him down a few pegs in the ratings of Wr's and I think he's got an ego that's going to make him go out and prove he can still be dominant.
 

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I think we're obviously going to miss D Hop it's where I think having Ertz the whole year will really help. Kyler had a nice rapport with Ertz and if that carries over with more help outside from Hollywood and Rondale we might not look as bad as we did without D Hop last year.

The thing with D Hop is he literally makes the field wider because his catch radius allows Kyler to throw balls a few feet out of bounds on the left side and he routinely catches them inbounds, and he's almost always open because even when he's not, he just catches the ball anyways. It's a hell of a security blanket.

We're going to have to wait and hope everyone stays healthy but the first game with D Hop back is going to be very interesting to see is Hollywood and Rondale happy he's back for more help or mad their targets went down?

And probably wishful thinking but I kind of expect D Hop to have a huge year, I think the injuries last year and the suspension have knocked him down a few pegs in the ratings of Wr's and I think he's got an ego that's going to make him go out and prove he can still be dominant.
Agree 100%. I expect Ertz & Brown to have a huge 1st half. And then Hop will be one angry dude when he gets back & have and absolutely INSANE 11 games. I love that we are flying under the radar so far. And even if we get off to a great start, we will remain under the radar because of how injuries impacted how we finished last season. If Murray stays healthy, and I believe he will, he will have his arm/legs involved in 45-50 touchdowns this year. I have my concerns about the D, so our O will need to be great for us to win the NFCW. But, it’s all doable.
 

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This is a non-sequitur. My belief is that for the first six weeks of the season when we're in 11 personnel it'll be Wesley and Green on the outside and Brown in the slot. That allows everyone to be in their best position to make plays.

If you put Brown outside and Moore in the slot then you're (probably) limiting the playmaking ability of Brown to get Moore touches in the slot (where he's been limited historically).

I don't get this "Brown is a slot" thing. He played 82% of his snaps out wide last year. 85% the year before. 78% as a rookie.

He's almost certainly going to play outside while Hopkins is out because we know they really like Moore and Brown and Moore are a whole other league of talent compared to Wesley.

You don't need height to play outside and height is all Wesley has.

And this is if Wesley is healthy, which he most likely won't be.
 

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I don't get this "Brown is a slot" thing. He played 82% of his snaps out wide last year. 85% the year before. 78% as a rookie.

He's almost certainly going to play outside while Hopkins is out because we know they really like Moore and Brown and Moore are a whole other league of talent compared to Wesley.

You don't need height to play outside and height is all Wesley has.

And this is if Wesley is healthy, which he most likely won't be.
Yeah but 2/3 of his TARGETS were from the slot last year: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/s...1-slot-vs-wide-yet-another-record-cooper-kupp

It was also where he was most effective.

And, again, if the reason he hasn’t been that good is because the Baltimore offense was holding him back, why point to the Baltimore offense as the example of how to use him?
 

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Yeah but 2/3 of his TARGETS were from the slot last year: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/s...1-slot-vs-wide-yet-another-record-cooper-kupp

It was also where he was most effective.

And, again, if the reason he hasn’t been that good is because the Baltimore offense was holding him back, why point to the Baltimore offense as the example of how to use him?

This is made up. His targets weren't from the slot. He didn't start in the slot and run routes against a CB3. He lined up wide 80% of the time and happened to be in a position that FO consider a "Slot position" when he received the ball. Which means the Ravens had him running a lot of inwards breaking routes. But he's still lined up vs CB1 most of the time unless vs zone. It's not the same thing.

This is nothing to do with Brown as a player and everything to do with the Raven's offense or Lamar's limitations as a passer. As you can see from this passing heat map from the last 3 seasons. They pass far more between the numbers than any other team in the league. And far less outside. 60% of Jackson's passes last year were between the numbers.

A recent quote from Michael Lombardi, but you can find similar all over the web.

"When at Louisville, he threw a great deep ball, on over and post routes. Jackson struggled even back then at throwing outside the numbers, right or left. He is widely erratic in that area, which then shrinks the field and allows the defense to pack its defenders inside. Everyone now knows he is best when throwing the ball in the middle of the field, between the numbers, which is why tight end Mark Andrews was the target on 153 passing attempts, the most on the team."

In 2019 he completed 71% of his passes between he numbers with a 108 passer rating. Outside the numbers only 48% completion rate and a 61.7 passer rating. Worst in the league.

From PFF,

"Jackson has been more effective throughout his NFL career targeting the middle of the field than he has been going outside the numbers, as he does in the play above. Even in his MVP campaign last year, Jackson ranked just 16th in PFF passing grade outside the numbers (75.8). By comparison, he ranked fifth in PFF passing grade between the numbers (92.4). That gap has only gotten wider this season. Because of that, we may see more teams try to take away the middle of the field against Baltimore, particularly with a lack of depth out wide behind Marquise Brown."

Which is also why that offense was holding him back.

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kerouac9

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This is made up. His targets weren't from the slot. He didn't start in the slot and run routes against a CB3. He lined up wide 80% of the time and happened to be in a position that FO consider a "Slot position" when he received the ball. Which means the Ravens had him running a lot of inwards breaking routes. But he's still lined up vs CB1 most of the time unless vs zone. It's not the same thing.

This is nothing to do with Brown as a player and everything to do with the Raven's offense or Lamar's limitations as a passer. As you can see from this passing heat map from the last 3 seasons. They pass far more between the numbers than any other team in the league. And far less outside. 60% of Jackson's passes last year were between the numbers.

A recent quote from Michael Lombardi, but you can find similar all over the web.

"When at Louisville, he threw a great deep ball, on over and post routes. Jackson struggled even back then at throwing outside the numbers, right or left. He is widely erratic in that area, which then shrinks the field and allows the defense to pack its defenders inside. Everyone now knows he is best when throwing the ball in the middle of the field, between the numbers, which is why tight end Mark Andrews was the target on 153 passing attempts, the most on the team."

In 2019 he completed 71% of his passes between he numbers with a 108 passer rating. Outside the numbers only 48% completion rate and a 61.7 passer rating. Worst in the league.

From PFF,

"Jackson has been more effective throughout his NFL career targeting the middle of the field than he has been going outside the numbers, as he does in the play above. Even in his MVP campaign last year, Jackson ranked just 16th in PFF passing grade outside the numbers (75.8). By comparison, he ranked fifth in PFF passing grade between the numbers (92.4). That gap has only gotten wider this season. Because of that, we may see more teams try to take away the middle of the field against Baltimore, particularly with a lack of depth out wide behind Marquise Brown."

Which is also why that offense was holding him back.

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LOL okay. Your PFF grades are definitely less made up than the game charting from FO and SIS.

Edit: you’re literally arguing a non-sequitur because you don’t like the facts provided. The FO piece isnt about in-breaking routes, it’s about where players are lined up when targeted and then what happens with the ball they get.

Brown played outside a lot because Baltimore didn’t play a lot of three wideout sets. He was inefficient in that role. Why do you continue to assert that we should continue to use him inefficiently and in the way that had him request a trade away from the team who drafted him?
 

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LOL okay. Your PFF grades are definitely less made up than the game charting from FO and SIS.

Edit: you’re literally arguing a non-sequitur because you don’t like the facts provided. The FO piece isnt about in-breaking routes, it’s about where players are lined up when targeted and then what happens with the ball they get.

Brown played outside a lot because Baltimore didn’t play a lot of three wideout sets. He was inefficient in that role. Why do you continue to assert that we should continue to use him inefficiently and in the way that had him request a trade away from the team who drafted him?

He was inefficient in that role because Baltimore are inefficient at passing the ball outside.

And it is made up. FO numbers are nuts. It has AJ Green playing 19% slot or 74 snaps. Tell me a single snap you recall Green playing inside last year never mind 74? I don't believe he played a single snap at slot.

It has Mike Evans playing 40% slot. It has guys that always play outside like Chase, Gallup, Hopkins, Johnson, Metcalf, Sutton, AB, Mike Williams, Golladay etc playing 22-35% slot. I must have slept through Nuk playing 22% slot.

It has Justin Jefferson playing 47% slot. I need that crying laughing smily.

Allan Robinson, AJ Brown, McLaurin, Lamb, Tyreek etc are apparently more slot than outside.

It has 55 receivers playing more slot than outside and only 38 playing more outside than slot. Despite far more sets having 2 outside receivers and only 1 slot. How does that work?

The numbers are bogus. Some definition of slot that only FO uses.
 

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He was inefficient in that role because Baltimore are inefficient at passing the ball outside.

And it is made up. FO numbers are nuts. It has AJ Green playing 19% slot or 74 snaps. Tell me a single snap you recall Green playing inside last year never mind 74? I don't believe he played a single snap at slot.

It has Mike Evans playing 40% slot. It has guys that always play outside like Chase, Gallup, Hopkins, Johnson, Metcalf, Sutton, AB, Mike Williams, Golladay etc playing 22-35% slot. I must have slept through Nuk playing 22% slot.

It has Justin Jefferson playing 47% slot. I need that crying laughing smily.

Allan Robinson, AJ Brown, McLaurin, Lamb, Tyreek etc are apparently more slot than outside.

It has 55 receivers playing more slot than outside and only 38 playing more outside than slot. Despite far more sets having 2 outside receivers and only 1 slot. How does that work?

The numbers are bogus. Some definition of slot that only FO uses.
Dude -- what is your deal? The chart is TARGETS not SNAPS. The point of game charting and metrics is that you don't have to remember specific examples -- they're all charted.

Also you're definitely reading the chart wrong, because it says that Green had 74 targets WIDE and 17 targets from slot or tight.

I'm not even arguing about Brown's efficiency right now because I agree that in our system he's likely to be a more efficient player than he was in Baltimore. My argument is WHERE WILL WE MAXIMIZE HIS VALUE?

This is like when DHop went down and people said "Hey this is Rondale Moore's big shot because Kirk will play more outside." Did that happen? Of course not. Kirk stayed inside on 3WR sets and Wesley got the snaps on the outside.

Why should things be different outside some hopes and dreams plus a June press conference when Moore's position coach said that he'd be learning the whole route tree?
 

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Dude -- what is your deal? The chart is TARGETS not SNAPS. The point of game charting and metrics is that you don't have to remember specific examples -- they're all charted.

Also you're definitely reading the chart wrong, because it says that Green had 74 targets WIDE and 17 targets from slot or tight.

I'm not even arguing about Brown's efficiency right now because I agree that in our system he's likely to be a more efficient player than he was in Baltimore. My argument is WHERE WILL WE MAXIMIZE HIS VALUE?

This is like when DHop went down and people said "Hey this is Rondale Moore's big shot because Kirk will play more outside." Did that happen? Of course not. Kirk stayed inside on 3WR sets and Wesley got the snaps on the outside.

Why should things be different outside some hopes and dreams plus a June press conference when Moore's position coach said that he'd be learning the whole route tree?

17 or 74. He didn't have one in reality.

FO are using a methodology nobody else uses. If you are the widest receiver in the formation, but that formation is condensed. You're in the slot. So Mike Evans can have Godwin inside him, run an outside go, but if he starts condensed inside the numbers he's playing slot. It's nuts.

The whole table has 4889 slot targets vs 3692 outside targets! And this is just for WR, not counting TE's or RB's that are more likely to run inside routes.

They are the only site that has anywhere near that ratio. I like FO but this slot measurement is garbage.

Take Brown. He ran 519 routes last year. All other numbers I can find say 163 of them were from the slot. So supposedly he was targeted on 91 of 163 slot routes (56%) but on the 356 wide routes he ran he was only targeted 58 times (16%). That's just nonsense. And it's not just Brown. It looks that way for most on that list.

If you are the widest WR in the formation and covered by an outside corner, but that play design is condensed that doesn't mean you're in the slot.
 

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17 or 74. He didn't have one in reality.

FO are using a methodology nobody else uses. If you are the widest receiver in the formation, but that formation is condensed. You're in the slot. So Mike Evans can have Godwin inside him, run an outside go, but if he starts condensed inside the numbers he's playing slot. It's nuts.

The whole table has 4889 slot targets vs 3692 outside targets! And this is just for WR, not counting TE's or RB's that are more likely to run inside routes.

They are the only site that has anywhere near that ratio. I like FO but this slot measurement is garbage.

Take Brown. He ran 519 routes last year. All other numbers I can find say 163 of them were from the slot. So supposedly he was targeted on 91 of 163 slot routes (56%) but on the 356 wide routes he ran he was only targeted 58 times (16%). That's just nonsense. And it's not just Brown. It looks that way for most on that list.

If you are the widest WR in the formation and covered by an outside corner, but that play design is condensed that doesn't mean you're in the slot.
Well, if you disagree with the metrics, they must be wrong. What a joke.

Do you even do the reading?

Last season, 56.3% of all receiver targets went to wideouts in the slot, and 26 teams saw over half their passes go to slot receivers. Those numbers are both slightly down from last year, but it's still the predominant strategy for using wideouts.

But when the entire league zigs, someone has to zag. In 2020, we didn't have a single wide receiver with at least 80% of their targets split out wide. Well, wide receivers came back in 2021, with DeVante Parker, A.J. Green, and Diontae Johnson essentially living outside. Fourteen different wideouts saw twice as many targets outside as inside, including some of the larger names in the sport.

The following table shows wide receiver target and performance splits in the slot and out wide in 2021. Those charting labels come from players' locations on the field regardless of the positioning of their teammates. A receiver who was a few feet away from the offensive line was considered to be in the slot even if he was the widest receiver on that side. Receivers in motion were charted based on their original location, which tends to be in the slot on jet motions. We have grouped targets from the traditional tight end spot in with slot targets because of their similarity, but that's not a huge impact on the data; there were only 225 targets to wide receivers lined up tight, with Amon-Ra St. Brown and Cooper Kupp the only ones to hit double digits.
 

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Well, if you disagree with the metrics, they must be wrong. What a joke.

Do you even do the reading?

Yes I read all that, that was my point. It's all based on their own nonsense definition of what a slot is.
 

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This is overplayed imo. I saw him grab multiple balls with his hands on Friday. AJ Green is a body catcher and nobody brings that up.
I was watching an old 1985ish Bear's game. Johnny Morris was announcing and at the time he held the Bear's all time receiving record. He said that the receiver made a great catch using his body which is the best way to catch. I wonder when that idea died.
 

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Yeah but 2/3 of his TARGETS were from the slot last year: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/s...1-slot-vs-wide-yet-another-record-cooper-kupp

It was also where he was most effective.

And, again, if the reason he hasn’t been that good is because the Baltimore offense was holding him back, why point to the Baltimore offense as the example of how to use him?
…where he was most effective w Lamar. Lamar simply can not make the throws to utilize a star WR properly. It’s a big reason why Mark Andrews is his number 1 target and they don’t invest in high dollar FA WRs.. no sense in doing so if you can’t utilize them to their full capacity bc your QB can’t make the throws.
 
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