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Stout

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I don't think @MadCardDisease statement requires any "faith".

Keeping flexibility for future use when you likely aren't really challenging for a Super Bowl is a prudent approach. Players available post-draft aren't usually building block type players.
Oh, it certainly does. Slow builds in the modern NFL are extremely difficult to pull off. By the time a set of players starts to develop, you're losing others to FA. We've sucked two years under Monti as part of a super slow "rebuild" and no more "it's not time" excuses can possibly be made after this season. Until the team proves out, it's all faith.
 

bankybruce

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Oh, it certainly does. Slow builds in the modern NFL are extremely difficult to pull off. By the time a set of players starts to develop, you're losing others to FA. We've sucked two years under Monti as part of a super slow "rebuild" and no more "it's not time" excuses can possibly be made after this season. Until the team proves out, it's all faith.
We haven't played year two yet.
 
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Krangodnzr

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Oh, it certainly does. Slow builds in the modern NFL are extremely difficult to pull off. By the time a set of players starts to develop, you're losing others to FA. We've sucked two years under Monti as part of a super slow "rebuild" and no more "it's not time" excuses can possibly be made after this season. Until the team proves out, it's all faith.
Eh last year the Cardinals were going to suck in 1,000,000:1 scenarios.

Trying to hit gud too quickly can sometimes set teams back from the path of getting truly elite talents like Harrison Jr.

I understood what Monti was doing then and I understand where he is at now. He's not taking the short cut routes by signing older vets to git gud quicker. In a lot of respects, he's the anti-Keim.
 

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Oh, it certainly does. Slow builds in the modern NFL are extremely difficult to pull off. By the time a set of players starts to develop, you're losing others to FA. We've sucked two years under Monti as part of a super slow "rebuild" and no more "it's not time" excuses can possibly be made after this season. Until the team proves out, it's all faith.
We have only played one season under Monti. (We hired him in Jan of 2023)
 

Stout

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Eh last year the Cardinals were going to suck in 1,000,000:1 scenarios.

Trying to hit gud too quickly can sometimes set teams back from the path of getting truly elite talents like Harrison Jr.

I understood what Monti was doing then and I understand where he is at now. He's not taking the short cut routes by signing older vets to git gud quicker. In a lot of respects, he's the anti-Keim.
Hey, no one's supposed to catch my mistakes ;) Yeah, the mind was thinking one thing, the fingers typing another.
 

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Eh last year the Cardinals were going to suck in 1,000,000:1 scenarios.

Trying to hit gud too quickly can sometimes set teams back from the path of getting truly elite talents like Harrison Jr.

I understood what Monti was doing then and I understand where he is at now. He's not taking the short cut routes by signing older vets to git gud quicker. In a lot of respects, he's the anti-Keim.
True, but we're very much in the faith stage, that he can take us to the promised land. Until he does, I will hope but have doubts when I see reason to doubt.
 

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It isn't Monti, IMO. His remit is to rebuild this team without spending too much. Does anyone doubt that?
I actually don't agree. Monti is from the Patriots school. Get your stars in the draft and build depth in FA. You might have a point, but I think it's equally Monti not wanting to spend big money of that single missing piece, when the roster has so many issues/unknowns.
 

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Oh, it certainly does. Slow builds in the modern NFL are extremely difficult to pull off. By the time a set of players starts to develop, you're losing others to FA. We've sucked two years under Monti as part of a super slow "rebuild" and no more "it's not time" excuses can possibly be made after this season. Until the team proves out, it's all faith.

The idea of a fast turnaround is predicated on the team already having a core of talent. We did not.

Keim couldn't draft to save his life and was blowing money on vets to try save his career. Hopkins contract was nuts on a team with very little other talent.

This was never a fast turnaround. Was always going to take 2-3 draft cycles before the team felt it was in a position to challenge.
 

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The idea of a fast turnaround is predicated on the team already having a core of talent. We did not.

Keim couldn't draft to save his life and was blowing money on vets to try save his career. Hopkins contract was nuts on a team with very little other talent.

This was never a fast turnaround. Was always going to take 2-3 draft cycles before the team felt it was in a position to challenge.
I agree with a good part of your assessment.

Let me ask you this, what do you see as void of core talent. 5, 10 or 15 players?

Are you considering developed and undeveloped talent as different when deciding if this teams has core talent?
 

Stout

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I actually don't agree. Monti is from the Patriots school. Get your stars in the draft and build depth in FA. You might have a point, but I think it's equally Monti not wanting to spend big money of that single missing piece, when the roster has so many issues/unknowns.
We don't have Tom Brady, so we can't go all-in on that model. We desperately need top end talent. Less desperately than last year, granted, but still. He won't get it all in the draft. FA and constantly having to churn the roster will assure that.
 

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The idea of a fast turnaround is predicated on the team already having a core of talent. We did not.

Keim couldn't draft to save his life and was blowing money on vets to try save his career. Hopkins contract was nuts on a team with very little other talent.

This was never a fast turnaround. Was always going to take 2-3 draft cycles before the team felt it was in a position to challenge.
Mm, maybe. I will say this--we have zero excuses next year. IDGAF what happens this year, although we'd better be way improved--but Monti has to have this team ready to compete next year. Otherwise his plan will have failed. Now, with your 3 draft cycles, that would fit. I'm not saying I'm doubtful of the outcome. I think he's done well within the confines he or Mikey B have set for the team. Next offseason must break that mold, at least somewhat, IMO, if we're going to take a real shot.
 

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Mm, maybe. I will say this--we have zero excuses next year. IDGAF what happens this year, although we'd better be way improved--but Monti has to have this team ready to compete next year. Otherwise his plan will have failed. Now, with your 3 draft cycles, that would fit. I'm not saying I'm doubtful of the outcome. I think he's done well within the confines he or Mikey B have set for the team. Next offseason must break that mold, at least somewhat, IMO, if we're going to take a real shot.
100% this! Three drafts with their foundation built. Money to fill in any holes must be spent next offseason, plus at minimum, a McBride extension.
 

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Mm, maybe. I will say this--we have zero excuses next year. IDGAF what happens this year, although we'd better be way improved--but Monti has to have this team ready to compete next year. Otherwise his plan will have failed. Now, with your 3 draft cycles, that would fit. I'm not saying I'm doubtful of the outcome. I think he's done well within the confines he or Mikey B have set for the team. Next offseason must break that mold, at least somewhat, IMO, if we're going to take a real shot.
For sure. If we aren't either a playoff team, or at the VERY worst a shot at the playoffs in week 18 of next year, it will be very disappointing.
 

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We don't have Tom Brady, so we can't go all-in on that model. We desperately need top end talent. Less desperately than last year, granted, but still. He won't get it all in the draft. FA and constantly having to churn the roster will assure that.
Imagine if the Cardinals had resigned Allen, Murphy, and made another commensurate signing last year.

I can almost guarantee that Harrison Jr. would be a Charger right now and my guess is the Cardinals would have traded down.

I agreed with bottoming out last year and I agree with the conservative approach right now. Where I will really start judging Monti is how the draft picks develop over the next season and then how he handles next FA. Next FA is likely one where the Cardinals will have to make significant signings.

My current hopium is that Robinson can make an early impact, Ojulari takes a step forward, and one of the young CBs becomes a solid NFL corner. I'm much more sure of what Monti has done for the offense; I like the direction under Petzing and I think Monti takes depth into account when he's building a roster. WR could use one more player, but there are a couple of potential roster solutions.
 

Krangodnzr

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Mm, maybe. I will say this--we have zero excuses next year. IDGAF what happens this year, although we'd better be way improved--but Monti has to have this team ready to compete next year. Otherwise his plan will have failed. Now, with your 3 draft cycles, that would fit. I'm not saying I'm doubtful of the outcome. I think he's done well within the confines he or Mikey B have set for the team. Next offseason must break that mold, at least somewhat, IMO, if we're going to take a real shot.
My only caveat is if the NFC West as a whole is really good because the three other teams have much stronger cores in place.
 

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I agree with a good part of your assessment.

Let me ask you this, what do you see as void of core talent. 5, 10 or 15 players?

Are you considering developed and undeveloped talent as different when deciding if this teams has core talent?

Around 10 players, split evenly preferably. And that's proven starter level talent, not potential. It doesn't have to be top tier talent, but should be someone the FO can count on.

Just looking at who is left from the 2022 team and it's basically Budda, JT, Kyler, Conner, Will Hernandez, Zaven Collins (at a different position) and Trey McBride, although McBride was nothing then and Zaven is a fringe starter currently.

And in my opinion only 1 of them is a potential top tier starter at an important position at that time, and that's Kyler. McBride has developed into someone with top 10 position potential.

I love Conner, but running back is an easy position to replace. Heck, Connor was a disposable running back when we picked him up. Safety is the running back of defense and it pains me that we have so much money in that position.

I'm missing Hump off here, although you could put him in if you want. For me he was always the Andy Dalton of left tackles. Initially promising enough to think he's a franchise player, but ultimately proved to be a bottom tier starter. I think the team would have moved away from him without the injury.

So Monti started with 5 total surefire starters (Kyler, Conner, Budda, JT, Hernandez) and none of them at WR, CB, Edge, DL. If you have 10 and those 10 are at key positions then even better.

The QB is a massive wildcard though. You hit on a good QB or get a QB playing lights out and it can make a below average roster a postseason team. Look at the '21 Cardinals, or last years Texans. Nobody looked at the Texans roster pre season and thought they were better than 5 wins.

Which is why I think this years team, while not there yet on paper, can surprise people if Kyler is good. I think even with last years worse roster we get 8 wins if Kyler is healthy.
 
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Stout

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My only caveat is if the NFC West as a whole is really good because the three other teams have much stronger cores in place.
Cannot in the least use that as an excuse in year 3. I don't want to hear, "Well, we expected to make the playoffs but we're in a really tough division..."
 

Krangodnzr

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Cannot in the least use that as an excuse in year 3. I don't want to hear, "Well, we expected to make the playoffs but we're in a really tough division..."
Eh the Cardinals have the NFC Champs in their division. The Rams have a solid team with a top five coach. The Seahawks still have quite a bit of good talent.

In 2025 the NFC West could be the best division in football.

This could be the fly in the ointment.
 

Stout

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Eh the Cardinals have the NFC Champs in their division. The Rams have a solid team with a top five coach. The Seahawks still have quite a bit of good talent.

In 2025 the NFC West could be the best division in football.

This could be the fly in the ointment.
Sorry, if we're not in the playoffs in year 3, the experiment has failed. Would you seriously suggest you'd be okay with that and accept the division as an excuse? We don't have to top our division to make the playoffs--especially in the NFC, it's not a huge mountain to climb. I suspect you would not be okay with that.
 

Krangodnzr

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Sorry, if we're not in the playoffs in year 3, the experiment has failed. Would you seriously suggest you'd be okay with that and accept the division as an excuse? We don't have to top our division to make the playoffs--especially in the NFC, it's not a huge mountain to climb. I suspect you would not be okay with that.
I won't be okay with it, that's not the point of what I am saying.

My point is that this is a possibility. Monti might do a fairly good job, but still fail because the Delta is just that great right now.
 

Stout

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I won't be okay with it, that's not the point of what I am saying.

My point is that this is a possibility. Monti might do a fairly good job, but still fail because the Delta is just that great right now.
I see what you're saying, but again, we don't need to finish top of our division, or second, to make the playoffs and contend.
 

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