2022 Season - A Season of Answers

Chopper0080

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The thing I am most excited for this season is hopefully gleaning some answers regarding certain players and one coach.

1 - Can Kyler win a meaningful game?
-In year 4, the excuses are running out. A talent deficient NFC should provide Kyler with an opportunity to clinch a postseason birth in December. Can he do it?

2 - Was Christian Kirk a deficient outside wide receiver?
-Hollywood Brown is going to have plenty of opportunities to play outside with Hopkins out. Can he produce where Kirk couldn't?

3 - Does talent on Vance's defense matter that much?
-There have been plenty of threads about this but I feel like this is the year where we find out. No Chandler Jones. No Patrick Peterson. No Jordan Hicks. No Jordan Phillips. The Cardinals will enter the season around 20th in defensive spending and only have JJ Watt and Budda Baker with a cap hit over 6 mil. Will we see a difference with Vance's bend don't break scheme and philosophy?

4 - Does Kliff's offense really utilize a "gadget" piece?
-First we drafted Andy Isabella to unlock Kliff's offense. That didn't work. Then we drafted Rondale Moore and the results were not terrible but definitely underwhelming but he was on a rookie contract. Now we get year 2, same player, and we can see if the gadgets can actually produce in this offense.

5 - Was Will Hernandez held back in NY by the dysfunction of the Giants or is he just a replacement level lineman?
-Will is moving to a system and coach he is familiar with and I don't see much competition on the roster for him. He should have every opportunity to show he was worth a top 40 selection.

There are a lot of these, but there are the larger more global questions that I believe we should have answers for by the end of the year. There are others (Simmons, Collins, Josh Jones) that I am not certain will get enough run to be answered.
 

kerouac9

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I’m extremely interested to see how often Moore sees the field early in the year. I 100% expect Brown to move inside on 3WR sets and Wesley and Green on the outside.
 

oaken1

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I’m extremely interested to see how often Moore sees the field early in the year. I 100% expect Brown to move inside on 3WR sets and Wesley and Green on the outside.
Agree. Shame as it is, I expect kliff to plug hollywood right into Kirk's spot....then keep him there until it's time to replace DHop
 
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Chopper0080

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Agree. Shame as it is, I expect kliff to plug hollywood right into Kirk's spot....then keep him there until it's time to replace DHop
My expectation is that we see Brown, Green and Moore while Hopkins is suspended. If Brown is successful outside, we then see Moore and Green split the 3rd WR role in 11 personnel. Green needs less reps over the course of the season and will play heavy minutes early.

If Wesley plays a bunch while Hopkins is out, I think it highlights a similar issue with Keim as we see on the defense.
 

Krangodnzr

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My expectation is that we see Brown, Green and Moore while Hopkins is suspended. If Brown is successful outside, we then see Moore and Green split the 3rd WR role in 11 personnel. Green needs less reps over the course of the season and will play heavy minutes early.

If Wesley plays a bunch while Hopkins is out, I think it highlights a similar issue with Keim as we see on the defense.
The one thing that I find confusing that the Cardinals are saying is that Moore will play in Kirk's position....where does that leave Hollywood?

It would be a rather poor use of assets if the Cardinals base WRs in 11 is Hopkins, Moore, and Green. Maybe the idea is that once Hopkins comes back, that the base 11 will be Hopkins, Moore, and Hollywood? That makes more sense, but we haven't seen the Cardinals hash this out.

I'm a little more bullish on the Cardinals skill players. I think there is a road towards the offense having a ton of quality weapons, more so than a lot of teams. Hopkins, Hollywood, Ertz, Conner, Green, Moore....none of those guys are scrubs. McBride and Eno are unproven, but both have potential to be contributors. I think this skill position group is one of the better ones we've seen since the team came to Arizona.
 

kerouac9

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People depending on tiny Hollywood Brown being an effective perimeter weapon are likely to be disappointed. There is like one example of a player Browns size being effective consistently on the outside—and he was effective right away.

It also seems like Groundhogs Day each season when people expect the offense to somehow transform rather than evolve. Why would Moore be running the full route tree or used on the perimeter this year?
 
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Chopper0080

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The one thing that I find confusing that the Cardinals are saying is that Moore will play in Kirk's position....where does that leave Hollywood?

It would be a rather poor use of assets if the Cardinals base WRs in 11 is Hopkins, Moore, and Green. Maybe the idea is that once Hopkins comes back, that the base 11 will be Hopkins, Moore, and Hollywood? That makes more sense, but we haven't seen the Cardinals hash this out.

I'm a little more bullish on the Cardinals skill players. I think there is a road towards the offense having a ton of quality weapons, more so than a lot of teams. Hopkins, Hollywood, Ertz, Conner, Green, Moore....none of those guys are scrubs. McBride and Eno are unproven, but both have potential to be contributors. I think this skill position group is one of the better ones we've seen since the team came to Arizona.
I believe the our base 11 personnel will be Hopkins, Brown and Green/Moore with Ertz and Conner. I say Green/Moore because I think they will even out those snaps based upon what they want to do.

12 personnel probably still is Hopkins and Brown (Green and Brown while Hop is out).
 
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Chopper0080

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People depending on tiny Hollywood Brown being an effective perimeter weapon are likely to be disappointed. There is like one example of a player Browns size being effective consistently on the outside—and he was effective right away.

It also seems like Groundhogs Day each season when people expect the offense to somehow transform rather than evolve. Why would Moore be running the full route tree or used on the perimeter this year?
PlayerProfiler has 19% of Brown's snaps last year out of the slot. Are you seeing something different because if not, I guess that would lend credence to him being able to produce outside.

In terms of Moore, his usage is dependent on how the Cardinals use Brown and McBride as well as how often they line up in 10 personnel. If Brown just slides into Kirk's role then Moore is limited. And if they decide to use more 12 personnel with McBride, Moore is limited. Both would highlight that Keim has no long-term roster plan.
 

kerouac9

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PlayerProfiler has 19% of Brown's snaps last year out of the slot. Are you seeing something different because if not, I guess that would lend credence to him being able to produce outside.

In terms of Moore, his usage is dependent on how the Cardinals use Brown and McBride as well as how often they line up in 10 personnel. If Brown just slides into Kirk's role then Moore is limited. And if they decide to use more 12 personnel with McBride, Moore is limited. Both would highlight that Keim has no long-term roster plan.
We’ll, as many have pointed out, Baltimore ran a non-traditional offense where many of Browns routed ended up in-breaking and he got many of his targets near or within the hash marks.

As we’ve seen so far, Kliff’s perimeter receivers tend to stay on the perimeter and either keep heading outside or go deep on the post and maybe fade.
 

Krangodnzr

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We’ll, as many have pointed out, Baltimore ran a non-traditional offense where many of Browns routed ended up in-breaking and he got many of his targets near or within the hash marks.

As we’ve seen so far, Kliff’s perimeter receivers tend to stay on the perimeter and either keep heading outside or go deep on the post and maybe fade.
Could this be a function of Lamar's strength and weaknesses?
 

BritCard

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We’ll, as many have pointed out, Baltimore ran a non-traditional offense where many of Browns routed ended up in-breaking and he got many of his targets near or within the hash marks.

As we’ve seen so far, Kliff’s perimeter receivers tend to stay on the perimeter and either keep heading outside or go deep on the post and maybe fade.

Honestly can't see much difference between Brow's route map and Nuk's. Except brown moves around more. Or should I say, Hopkins plays in handcuffs? Plenty of outside stuff from Brown.

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kerouac9

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Honestly can't see much difference between Brow's route map and Nuk's. Except brown moves around more. Or should I say, Hopkins plays in handcuffs? Plenty of outside stuff from Brown.

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Yeah, but you don't want to use Marquise Brown the way you use DeAndre Hopkins, do you? Isn't Brown supposed to be a big-play threat, not a ball-control possession receiver? Also, Hopkins is 6'1" and much more productive in that role than Brown has proven.
 
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Chopper0080

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Yeah, but you don't want to use Marquise Brown the way you use DeAndre Hopkins, do you? Isn't Brown supposed to be a big-play threat, not a ball-control possession receiver? Also, Hopkins is 6'1" and much more productive in that role than Brown has proven.
We should know for sure by the time Hopkins gets back.
 
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Chopper0080

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For comparison's sake, here's Kirk's routes run on targets last season. I think this is how you'd more effectively want to use Brown.

Bonus: LOL Rondale
I normally don't go for coach speak but I really hope Kliff isn't lying here regarding Moore...

“He feels like he can step into Christian’s role and play at a really high level inside there and we do too,” Kingsbury said. “I just think the confidence is high right now and he knows he’s got a big opportunity coming up.

“We utilized him in different ways than we will this year,” Kingsbury added, “We kind of got it to him in space and did some things and used him on some checkdowns but he’s a dynamic route-runner and I think that’s what people are going to see. He’s really good getting out of his cuts, good at the tougher routes and so I think people are going to see a different side of him.

-Kliff Kingsbury, via Arizona Sports 98.7FM
 

kerouac9

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I normally don't go for coach speak but I really hope Kliff isn't lying here regarding Moore...

“He feels like he can step into Christian’s role and play at a really high level inside there and we do too,” Kingsbury said. “I just think the confidence is high right now and he knows he’s got a big opportunity coming up.

“We utilized him in different ways than we will this year,” Kingsbury added, “We kind of got it to him in space and did some things and used him on some checkdowns but he’s a dynamic route-runner and I think that’s what people are going to see. He’s really good getting out of his cuts, good at the tougher routes and so I think people are going to see a different side of him.

-Kliff Kingsbury, via Arizona Sports 98.7FM
I don't think he's lying, but (IMO) Moore has to be better than Hollywood Brown in the slot to take that job. Maybe that happens in two years if and when DHop is out and Brown is the #1 guy always on the outside. But I fully expect our 3WR set to be Wesley-Brown-Green until DHop comes back and then Hop-Brown-Green.

If Moore is in the slot it's a clear key that there's a smoke screen coming. Maybe McBride doesn't show much in camp and we run a lot of 4 WR sets in passing situations to start the season. But the angles just aren't there for little wideouts down the field.

EDIT: One thing I love about Kliff is that he's always positive about these guys during the offseason, and he puts it on himself when they don't get involved and don't get opportunities. He never says "Zaven sucked all week and we couldn't put him out there in good conscience." He says "we have to find better opportunities to get him on the field."

It's all fun and games until you're faced with 3rd and seven and you're trying to get it to two 5'6" wideouts on the outside.
 

dreamcastrocks

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I think we have to play both Brown/Moore at the same time while Nuk is gone. I doubt we will ask Moore to do it...so that leaves Brown to cover Nuk's spot.
 

dreamcastrocks

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I don't think he's lying, but (IMO) Moore has to be better than Hollywood Brown in the slot to take that job. Maybe that happens in two years if and when DHop is out and Brown is the #1 guy always on the outside. But I fully expect our 3WR set to be Wesley-Brown-Green until DHop comes back and then Hop-Brown-Green.

If Moore is in the slot it's a clear key that there's a smoke screen coming. Maybe McBride doesn't show much in camp and we run a lot of 4 WR sets in passing situations to start the season. But the angles just aren't there for little wideouts down the field.

EDIT: One thing I love about Kliff is that he's always positive about these guys during the offseason, and he puts it on himself when they don't get involved and don't get opportunities. He never says "Zaven sucked all week and we couldn't put him out there in good conscience." He says "we have to find better opportunities to get him on the field."

It's all fun and games until you're faced with 3rd and seven and you're trying to get it to two 5'6" wideouts on the outside.
Green will still be on the outside... unless I'm missing something...
 

daves

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In terms of Moore, his usage is dependent on how the Cardinals use Brown and McBride as well as how often they line up in 10 personnel. If Brown just slides into Kirk's role then Moore is limited. And if they decide to use more 12 personnel with McBride, Moore is limited. Both would highlight that Keim has no long-term roster plan.
So having a plethora of skill players with overlapping skill sets such that it's hard to get them all on the field at the same time would be evidence that Keim has no long-term roster plan... But if the Cardinals *didn't* have all these players, when one guy gets suspended or another gets hurt or another moves on at the end of his contract, Keim's an idiot for not having enough depth or any long-term roster plan?

...dave
 

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I normally don't go for coach speak but I really hope Kliff isn't lying here regarding Moore...

“He feels like he can step into Christian’s role and play at a really high level inside there and we do too,” Kingsbury said. “I just think the confidence is high right now and he knows he’s got a big opportunity coming up.

“We utilized him in different ways than we will this year,” Kingsbury added, “We kind of got it to him in space and did some things and used him on some checkdowns but he’s a dynamic route-runner and I think that’s what people are going to see. He’s really good getting out of his cuts, good at the tougher routes and so I think people are going to see a different side of him.

-Kliff Kingsbury, via Arizona Sports 98.7FM
"Cardinals head coach Kliff Kingsbury said after the trade that he can use Brown everywhere. He envisions Brown mainly stepping into Arizona's 2021 lead receiver Christian Kirk's role after the latter left in free agency."
www.si.com/nfl/cardinals/.amp/news/how-the-arizona-cardinals-see-hollywood-brown-fitting-offense

Kliff says a lot of things.
 
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Chopper0080

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So having a plethora of skill players with overlapping skill sets such that it's hard to get them all on the field at the same time would be evidence that Keim has no long-term roster plan... But if the Cardinals *didn't* have all these players, when one guy gets suspended or another gets hurt or another moves on at the end of his contract, Keim's an idiot for not having enough depth or any long-term roster plan?

...dave
Had Kirk, a 2nd round pick. Couldn't flash as a #1 but was a great slot WR.
Used a 2nd round pick on Hopkins. Gave him a huge contract. #1.
Signed AJ Green.
Used a 2nd round pick on Rondale Moore.
Let Kirk go into his contract year.
Traded a 5th, 6th and Gowan for Ertz.
Re-signed Zack Ertz. Large Contract.
Traded a 1st round pick for Marquise Brown. Who is used a ton in the slot.
Re-signed AJ Green.
Drafted Trey McBride with a 2nd round pick.

Yes, this ensures that we have redundant options in the pass game for Kyler. It also results in a roster with only 4 offensive linemen signed in 2023 and a total of 16 starters as FAs in 2023.

Fun exercise. Since Kliff was hired...
WR
Andy Isabella - 2nd
Hakeem Butler - 4th
KeeSean Johnon - 6th
DeAndre Hopkins - 2nd (large contract)
AJ Green - FA (6 mil)
Rondale Moore - 2nd
Marquise Brown - 1st

TE
Caleb Wilson - 7th
Zack Ertz - 5th, 6th, CB Gowan (large contract)
Trey McBride - 2nd

So a lot of premium resources used on guys who either couldn't work or who limit the impact the other players can have.

What I mean by this is that we used 12 personnel on 22% of the snaps last year and 10 personnel 13% of the snaps. We used a 2nd, 5th, 6th, CB Gowan, and a 3yr 31.6 mil contract for a 22% snap % grouping. With Hopkins, Green, Brown and Moore we have spent a lot of resources to enable us to get those players on the field together on 13% of a seasons snaps which of course means those TEs aren't on the field for that.
 

Harry

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People depending on tiny Hollywood Brown being an effective perimeter weapon are likely to be disappointed. There is like one example of a player Browns size being effective consistently on the outside—and he was effective right away.

It also seems like Groundhogs Day each season when people expect the offense to somehow transform rather than evolve. Why would Moore be running the full route tree or used on the perimeter this year?
Not sure who you’re referring to. My thought for a positive example would be Steve Smith. He played in the slot some but most played outside. His first year produced only 154 yards. He became one of the NFL’s top wideouts for many years. He stood only 5’9”.
 

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