2022-23 Around the NBA Thread

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,738
Reaction score
12,793
Location
Arizona
That wasn't a "fire sale". That term indicates they gave up any and all assets at a discount, they got full value for KD from us despite him being a depreciating asset who is 34 and can't stay healthy. The Suns gave up a haul indicating he was healthy and younger. He's 34, the window is cracked open for this year and next despite being on the hook for 3 more seasons of his salary. He's not on a sweet deal that's movable like CP3 either. If he breaks down we'll be lucky to get expirings in return and we'll still be forking over draft picks to the Nets.
Yes it was. It was a fire sale in terms of players. Evidently you have never been to an everything must go at a Jewelry store or furniture store going out of business. They don't typically give you any real discount until the very end. ;)

You are missing the point entirely though. The point being made is that in order for your team to give up on it's current direction, means you miserably failed. Team's don't start over out of the goodness of their hearts. Something went wrong in usually horrible fashion to get to that point. Not to mention the Nets front office history shouldn't give you any "feels" about what they can do in the future with any of those assets let along keeping Bridges.

That is the point.
 

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
16,435
Reaction score
11,484
Location
Tempe, AZ
That wasn’t my point. Mainstreet is lauding how great they are, being able to have their cake and eat it too when the reality is they’re still serving crap with a 6-10 record since the trade and will be getting mediocre draft picks moving forward. That ain’t like the Jazz who have been .500 all season with a bunch of draft picks.

He didn't say they were great, you tried claiming he did. I believe he was pointing how they can develop young players for the future while having a stockpile of assets to build with. They don't need to be bad because we are and they have our picks and some of the quality young talent we accumulated from being awful for over a decade. You're twisting it around to try and make a claim they stink or the trade wasn't that bad, I'm not sure, but it seems like you just can't handle someone still upset about the trade.
 

elindholm

edited for content
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Posts
26,831
Reaction score
8,078
Location
L.A. area
The picks on the back end of the deal have a strong chance to be very juicy.

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear from the last couple of weeks that a team of Booker, Ayton, and a bunch of scrubs really isn't going to be very good at all. Whether the Suns win a title in the next 15 months or not, the end of the decade is going to provide some very lean years.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,738
Reaction score
12,793
Location
Arizona
Are the Nets in a better position for the future now or before the trade? Simple question. Which future's brighter, disgruntled KD who is injured and no assets or loaded with assets and young talent, with potential cap space on the horizon.
If you are asking do they have assets to play with that will allow more flexibility then the answer is they have more flexibility. That's a totally different question than "are the Nets in a better position for their future".

You have to believe the Nets are competent organization that can actually do something with those assets. What in the Nets history leads you to believe that? The Nets have a .425 winning percentage since joining the NBA. Does anybody want to live in the Brooklyn area long term? They have only made the playoffs 19 times since 1976. Had multiple front office disaster and coaching hires in recent years. Botched player relationships.

If Sarver was still our owner I might have said maybe it was a push with a slight edge to the Suns. However, give me James Jones and Ishbia every day and twice on Sunday. So, IMO, no question it's the Suns.
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
89,234
Reaction score
62,627
Yeah, I think it's pretty clear from the last couple of weeks that a team of Booker, Ayton, and a bunch of scrubs really isn't going to be very good at all. Whether the Suns win a title in the next 15 months or not, the end of the decade is going to provide some very lean years.
I think this assumes the Suns stop doing anything to improve the team post Paul/KD. Considering Booker attracted those two superstars, I’m not so sure we can just write off the next era post KD that easy.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,738
Reaction score
12,793
Location
Arizona
I think this assumes the Suns stop doing anything to improve the team post Paul/KD. Considering Booker attracted those two superstars, I’m not so sure we can just write off the next era post KD that easy.
This. It might take creativity. It might take moving Ayton. It might take draft day trades. People are still acting like Sarver owns this team. Ishbia doesn't strike me as someone who will sit on his hands.
 

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
19,869
Reaction score
10,742
Yeah, I think it's pretty clear from the last couple of weeks that a team of Booker, Ayton, and a bunch of scrubs really isn't going to be very good at all. Whether the Suns win a title in the next 15 months or not, the end of the decade is going to provide some very lean years.

If we win a title or 2, I could see some another star forcing their way in, probably through free agency when the cap goes up, but if we don't win a title, I don't see anyone fighting to join an aging Suns team with no assets and a history of falling short.

Really, I think we need to win it this year, its likely our best chance while KD is here. It is probably Paul's last year of having a pulse, replacing him and the bench guys we're going to lose with nothing but the MLE, a 2nd round pick and minimum contracts is going to be next to impossible.
 

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
16,435
Reaction score
11,484
Location
Tempe, AZ
From what perspective? If you are asking do they have assets to play with that will allow more flexibility then the answer is they have more flexibility. That's a totally different question than "are the Nets in a better position for their future".

You have to believe the Nets are competent organization that can actually do something with those assets. What in the Nets history leads you to believe that? The Nets have a .425 winning percentage since joining the NBA. Nobody wants to live in New Jersey. They have only made the playoffs 19 times since 1976. Had multiple front office disaster and coaching hires in recent years. Botched player relationships.

If Sarver was still our owner I might have said maybe it was a push with a slight edge to the Suns. However, give me James Jones and Isbia every day and twice on Sunday.

Dude they've been in Brooklyn for over a decade. Ya know, when they managed to attract an aging super team that couldn't stay healthy in KG, Paul Pierce, Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and Brook Lopez. That trade, where they gave up picks for a decade, ruined their move and by the time they finally got things back on track to some degree they signed 2 max players in KD and Kyrie, who were highly sought after and 4 years younger. So this claim they can't attract stars isn't true.


Since you can't get their location correct I'm not going to put much stock in what you're claiming they'll do or not do. They, like us, have new ownership and aren't damned to repeat the same mistakes over and over. Who knows if they will but I'm not writing them off simply because of their history because then we need to write the Suns off because of theirs. See how that works? Brooklyn is loaded for the future though, which is a good spot to be in if you aren't a legit title contender and they weren't this year, largely thanks to KD's health and Kyrie's attitude. Now KD's health can be our problem while our picks and young players can be theirs.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,738
Reaction score
12,793
Location
Arizona
If we win a title or 2, I could see some another star forcing their way in, probably through free agency when the cap goes up, but if we don't win a title, I don't see anyone fighting to join an aging Suns team with no assets and a history of falling short.

Really, I think we need to win it this year, its likely our best chance while KD is here. It is probably Paul's last year of having a pulse, replacing him and the bench guys we're going to lose with nothing but the MLE, a 2nd round pick and minimum contracts is going to be next to impossible.
That's actually a good point not very many people have brought up. There are stars in this league that will continue for force their way out. There are guys that seemingly sign for way under market value to ring chase at the end of their careers. The other part I am not so sure. Players want to play with Book. Paul came here during our struggles. KD wanted to play with Book. Damien Lee even though he is not on their level, during an interview said guys want to play with Book. The team would have to get creative but Ishbia won't sit idle.

If this team doesn't win a title with KD and Ishbia sits idle? I will eat crow.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,738
Reaction score
12,793
Location
Arizona
Dude they've been in Brooklyn for over a decade. Ya know, when they managed to attract an aging super team that couldn't stay healthy in KG, Paul Pierce, Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and Brook Lopez. That trade, where they gave up picks for a decade, ruined their move and by the time they finally got things back on track to some degree they signed 2 max players in KD and Kyrie, who were highly sought after and 4 years younger. So this claim they can't attract stars isn't true.


Since you can't get their location correct I'm not going to put much stock in what you're claiming they'll do or not do. They, like us, have new ownership and aren't damned to repeat the same mistakes over and over. Who knows if they will but I'm not writing them off simply because of their history because then we need to write the Suns off because of theirs. See how that works? Brooklyn is loaded for the future though, which is a good spot to be in if you aren't a legit title contender and they weren't this year, largely thanks to KD's health and Kyrie's attitude. Now KD's health can be our problem while our picks and young players can be theirs.
I mistyped. I meant Brooklyn. See correction. You don't put much stock in a mistype. Weak sauce dude.

You think Stars are clamoring to play there? After the player debacles? Coaches Debacle? History of that franchise? How many big time free agents have signed with the Nets verses a trade? How many home grown drafted players were so good guys clamored to play with them recently like Book?

Nets Ownership change was in 2018 right? That was 5 years ago and the stuff I am pointing out happened during that time. How is that a counter? Isbia is weeks into his ownership. Big difference.
 
Last edited:

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
19,869
Reaction score
10,742
That's actually a good point not very many people have brought up. There are stars in this league that will continue for force their way out. There are guys that seemingly sign for way under market value to ring chase at the end of their careers. The other part I am not so sure. Players want to play with Book. Paul came here during our struggles. KD wanted to play with Book. Damien Lee even though he is not on their level, during an interview said guys want to play with Book. The team would have to get creative but Ishbia won't sit idle.

If this team doesn't win a title with KD and Ishbia sits idle? I will eat crow.

I don't think Booker will have the same pull if in 3 years from now he is still ringless and surrounded by scrubs and the ever mercurial, DeAndre Ayton.

I'm glad Sarver's gone, but my first taste of Ishbia "not being idle" is not a good one. He can be as ambitious as possible, but it won't matter if he has drained the well.
 

Ronin

…..
Super Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Posts
136,771
Reaction score
56,450
Location
Las Cruces, New Mexico
You realize that 39-32 record is built on the strength of KD leading them to a scorching run?

I mean, you can’t be that obtuse to look at the Nets record and attribute that to Bridges/Cam when the reality is they’re a bad 6-10 since the trade. Are you really that obtuse?
Stop the name calling.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,738
Reaction score
12,793
Location
Arizona
I don't think Booker will have the same pull if in 3 years from now he is still ringless and surrounded by scrubs and the ever mercurial, DeAndre Ayton.

I'm glad Sarver's gone, but my first taste of Ishbia "not being idle" is not a good one. He can be as ambitious as possible, but it won't matter if he has drained the well.
That's pure speculation. I think players will see that Book for one got to the finals once. Had the best record. Continues to draw players like Paul and KD. Unless, Book does something to ruin his reputation? He can attract players as long as he is in his prime. There is nothing out there as of now to believe otherwise.

In terms of your view of Ishbia? That is a personal view based on your opinion of the trade. IMO, players like owners who are movers and shakers. Players care if ownership wants to win. This might end up being a bad move but having ownership who is willing to do what it takes to try and win goes a long way with players.
 

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
16,435
Reaction score
11,484
Location
Tempe, AZ
That's pure speculation. I think players will see that Book for one got to the finals once. Had the best record. Continues to draw players like Paul and KD. Unless, Book does something to ruin his reputation? He can attract players as long as he is in his prime. There is nothing out there as of now to believe otherwise.

In terms of your view of Ishbia? That is a personal view based on your opinion of the trade. IMO, players like owners who are movers and shakers. Players care if ownership wants to win. This might end up being a bad move but having ownership who is willing to do what it takes to try and win goes a long way with players.

You are acting like KD and Paul signed here in their prime and didn't cost anything. They were traded here for good value. The Suns didn't even get either of them at a discount. Top dollar was paid. Now the cupboard is bare and there isn't an easy way to add another star once CP3 is finished, which is essentially this off-season. There are no assets other than Ayton left to trade and we aren't getting a star for him alone.
 

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
19,869
Reaction score
10,742
That's pure speculation. I think players will see that Book for one got to the finals once. Had the best record. Continues to draw players like Pual and KD. Unless, Book does something to ruin his reputation? He can attract players as long as he is in his prime. There is nothing out there as of now to believe otherwise.

In terms of your view of Ishbia? That is a personal view based on your opinion of the trade. IMO, players like owners who are movers and shakers. Players care if ownership wants to win. This might end up being a bad move but having ownership who is willing to do what it takes to try and win goes a long way with players.

We're all speculating.

I don't think Booker needs to ruin his reputation. Guys fought to join Booker when we had a bunch of young talent around him and were an up and coming team. I don't think Booker surrounded by scrubs is going to be a team guys fight to join.

Furthermore, we only got Durant and Paul because we had assets to trade. That well is all dried up. Outside of whatever value Ayton may have we have absolutely nothing to offer in a trade for the next several years and it is really hard to see how we're going to alter that course.

We're not the Lakers where every 5-10 years some star, right in the middle of their prime waltzes in and erases several years of stupidity, we cannot afford whiff on a move this huge and not suffer seriously as a result. Ishbia could be the best owner in the league and it wouldn't matter if we have no flexibility to get deals done.

I 100% believe that this trade is boom or bust. We win a title or we are going to be pretty damn bad by the end of the decade.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,738
Reaction score
12,793
Location
Arizona
You are acting like KD and Paul signed here in their prime and didn't cost anything. They were traded here for good value. The Suns didn't even get either of them at a discount. Top dollar was paid. Now the cupboard is bare and there isn't an easy way to add another star once CP3 is finished, which is essentially this off-season. There are no assets other than Ayton left to trade and we aren't getting a star for him alone.
How am I acting like that? Where did I mention acquiring those players didn't come at a cost? Where? I never said the Suns got them at a discount either.

Again, you missed the entire point. We still have every other pick and the ones we gave up were not going to be franchise changing picks. There are still draft day trades and Ayton as you stated. You are being dramatic by saying the cupboard is bare. Not it's not. Is it less full? Sure. Does it make their job harder? Again...sure.

However, we see every season someone wants out of team X. We see teams deciding to start over and shed every ounce of salary. There are so many scenarios out there the Suns could still be involved in.
 

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
19,869
Reaction score
10,742
How am I acting like that? Where did I mention acquiring those players didn't come at a cost? Where? I never said the Suns got them at a discount either.

Again, you missed the entire point. We still have every other pick and the ones we gave up were not going to be franchise changing picks. There are still draft day trades and Ayton as you stated. You are being dramatic by saying the cupboard is bare. Not it's not. Is it less full? Sure.

Also, we see every season someone wants out of team X. We see teams deciding to start over and shed every ounce of salary. There are so many scenarios out there.

The cupboard is bare.

The Nets wanted no part of Ayton. Unless he steps up his game, I don't see us getting anything but role players in return for him. We don't have a draft day pick until 2024 and that pick had damn well better not have much value or things have already gone horrendously wrong.

The opportunity cost of the Durant trade was massive.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,738
Reaction score
12,793
Location
Arizona
The cupboard is bare.

The Nets wanted no part of Ayton. Unless he steps up his game, I don't see us getting anything but role players in return for him. We don't have a draft day pick until 2024 and that pick had damn well better not have much value or things have already gone horrendously wrong.

The opportunity cost of the Durant trade was massive.
No they are not. Every other pick is the opposite of bare. We will have future expiring contracts that could also carry value to some team. Also, there were only a handful of teams that had cap room for Ayton so we really don't know his real value on the open market. There is always an Indiana out there who will want him. Also, I don't think we have very many windows with Book left. Maybe two. If those windows are closed? I could see Book not finishing his extension contract here and the Suns starting over while he still has prime value.
 

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
19,869
Reaction score
10,742
No they are not. Every other pick is the opposite of bare. There were only a handful of teams that had cap room for Ayton so we really don't know his real value on the open market. There is always an Indiana out there who will want him. Also, I don't think we have very many windows with Book left. Maybe two. If those windows are closed? I could see Book not finishing his extension contract here and the Suns starting over while he still has prime value.
If we have to trade Booker before his contract is up we are likely giving the nets several top five picks.

That would unquestionably make this one of the worst trades in NBA history.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,738
Reaction score
12,793
Location
Arizona
What if we have to trade Booker for his context is up we are likely giving the next several top five picks.

That would unquestionably make this one of the worst traits in NBA history.
We are likely getting a boatload of assets in return for him if still in his prime. That would likely come in the form of multiple 1st round picks. My guess is he would be moved at the end of 2028 before the last year of his deal is up. He will only be 30.

In essence you get KD for the 2029 draft pick, which could be good, and gave up Bridges for a shot at a title. Then you have a ton of assets to play with in that draft and foward if you move Book. Seems like a win win. Besides, Book is not going to want to be part of another rebuild by then anyway.
 
Last edited:

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
19,869
Reaction score
10,742
We are likely getting a boatload of assets in return for him if still in his prime. That would likely come in the form of multiple 1st round picks which would replace the ones we gave up.

I don't see any chance in hell that a trade of Booker would make up for the assets we lost for Durant, in all likelihood, it would only compound the deficit.

Booker would be in his prime, likely going to a contender... at which point, we would STILL owe the Nets picks. We would be one of the worst teams in the league, with the Nets controlling our pick for 3 years straight.

Trading Booker and rebuilding is not an option. Flat out. You don't bottom out when someone else controls your draft. It would be pure insanity.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,738
Reaction score
12,793
Location
Arizona
I don't see any chance in hell that a trade of Booker would make up for the assets we lost for Durant.

Booker would be in his prime, likely going to a contender... at which point, we would STILL owe the Nets picks. We would be one of the worst teams in the league, with the Nets controlling our pick for 3 years straight.

Trading Booker and rebuilding is not an option. Flat out. You don't bottom out when someone else controls your draft. It would be pure insanity.
I am not talking about replacing those specific picks in those drafts leading up to trading Book. He would draw a number of picks coming back our way to play with in the 2029 draft and forward if you move him right around then. Maybe I should have said reloading assets intead of replacing. Trading Book before his extension contract is up is absolutely an option. If we don't have a title with Book by near the final year of his extension contract? It's not happening with Book anyway and he won't want to be part of a rebuild. Why would you not leverage Book's value then? I personally would want to see him ring chase by then.
 
Last edited:

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
19,869
Reaction score
10,742
I am not talking about replacing those specific picks in those drafts leading up to trading Book. He would draw a number of picks coming back our way to play with in the 2029 draft and forward if you move him right around then. Trading Book before his extension contract is up is absolutely an option. If we don't have a title with Book by near the final year of his contract? It's not happening with Book anyway.

No. I cannot possibly disagree more. I think even @cheesebeef would side with me on this one.

Trading away Booker and rebuilding is flat out NOT an option until we're done sending the Nets our picks. Period.

You don't do a full rebuild when you don't have your own draft picks, it is completely self defeating.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,738
Reaction score
12,793
Location
Arizona
No. I cannot possibly disagree more. I think even @cheesebeef would side with me on this one.

Trading away Booker and rebuilding is flat out NOT an option until we're done sending the Nets our picks. Period.

You don't do a full rebuild when you don't have your own draft picks, it is completely self defeating.
Huh? I am saying trading Book just prior to his contract extension completion. That would mean a boatload of assets coming back our way likely in the 2029 season and beyond. That's when you would move him and start the rebuild. Not while the window is still open to win a title with him in the next several seasons. Yes...that would be insane.
 

Phrazbit

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Posts
19,869
Reaction score
10,742
Huh? I am saying trading Book just prior to his contract extension completion. That would mean a boatload of assets coming back our way likely in the 2029 season and beyond. That's when you would move him and start the rebuild. Not while the window is still open to win a title with him in the next several seasons. Yes...that would be insane.

Booker's contract ends in 2028, if we're trading him for anything of value he's gotta go in 2027.

The Nets control our pick in 2027, 28 and 29.

Rebuilding prior to 2029 serves no purpose.
 
Top