15 thoughts - training camp

Gandhi

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1 – By far the most interesting will be Kyler Murray. He played very well in the last few games last season, so how does he look now? As explosive as his own self pre-injury? And does he carry himself like a leader, as he has all offseason?

2 – To us fans, training camp is mostly about individuals, and less about team play. We will not hear much from closed practices, where they truly prepare the specific team play for the season. We will mostly hear about how this or this guy are making a ton of plays, or the opposite. We will also not know much about the coaches’ abilities and work.

3 – I have never been a fan of appointing “can’t miss-prospect-”titles in the draft, and no, Marvin Harrison is no exception. But of course, we all want to see what he can do. Does he look as good as advertised?

4 – Neither Jalen Thompson nor Budda Baker was deployed in traditional safety-roles last season, but Dadrion Taylor-Demerson might be. Those three could be a difference-making unit on defense.

5 – Who plays left guard? My money is on Evan Brown (or could be Brown at C and move Froholdt to LG), but could one of the young guys take over? Isaiah Adams, Christian Jones, Jon Gaines? We will most likely know the regular season starting five when training camp ends.

6 – I am highly excited about Darius Robinson. Might be the addition I am most excited about. I am usually not a big fan of players without one clearly defined position. That said, Robinson is a great fit in both an interior role in Gannon’s 5-1 defense and an edge role in his 4-2.

7 – Will Ossenfort sign, buy or sell at the end of training camp?

8 – I’ll admit that I was not a big fan of Greg Dortch the two first seasons he was with the team. I thought he was only playing in lack of better options, since the WR-unit was so bad. Not anymore. Now Dortch is my guy, and I am rooting hard for a strong camp from him. He probably starts as #4 or #5 on the depth chart, but could he surpass Zay Jones, Chris Moore, Zach Pascal or whoever is above him?

9 – It makes sense that most people are talking about Max Melton, but I am more interested in Elijah Jones in camp. I mentioned in my mock draft how I multiple times wanted to like him, because of his potential, but just never did, mainly because he is not a traditional Jonathan Gannon-DB. However, Gannon obviously has a plan for him, and that excites me.

10 – The running game might actually be the one aspect where we will have a good sense of the potential after training camp. And it could be great. The offensive line could be very strong in that aspect, and we know what Connor can do. Plus, Tre Benson and Michael Carter could certainly add a dangerous change up-element. Not to mention Kyler Murray’s presence.

11 – The edge rush scares the **** out of me. Who steps up? I mean, Ojulari played better last season than most think, so I guess he is the obvious candidate. Gardeck, Collins, Dimukeje, Tyreke Smith are what they are, and none of them are going to keep anyone up at night. Xavier Thomas? Maybe, but let’s not put all our eggs in a fifth-round rookie-basket. This is a scary, scary department, and not for good reasons.

12 – Elijah Higgins was a pleasant surprise last season. Obviously, he is behind Tre McBride and Tip Reiman, but in Petzings scheme, Higgins should get plenty of chances. Prove it, young man.

13 – Bilal Nichols and Justin Jones will probably not blow you away, but don’t worry. They were not signed to rush the passer. They were signed to allow others to rush the passer. If the running backs are not having an impressive training camp, chances are that Nichols and Jones are.

14 – The backup quarterback is always important, and with Kyler Murray as your starter, he is essential. Desmond Ridder was a quality acquisition – especially considering the prize – and it will be great if he can show some sort of promise.

15 – Someone will be the training camp-darling among fans and media. Who? My shot in the dark is on either Dante Stills or Myles Murphy from the defensive line.
 

Totally_Red

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Good stuff.
I think you meant price instead of prize in #14-spellcheck strikes again.
 

FB94

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Really like your posts. Agree about pre season about individuals. I watch each preseason game a couple of times and try to focus on individual players as well. Eager to see what some of these guys can do. Hope we get lucky with one of the pass rushers stepping up with a big year.
 

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11 – The edge rush scares the **** out of me. Who steps up? I mean, Ojulari played better last season than most think...Yeah, this is fantasy and hopium. The burden is on you to prove he played better than most think. In what ways did he do so?

12 – Elijah Higgins was a pleasant surprise last season. Obviously, he is behind Tre McBride and Tip Reiman, but in Petzings scheme, Higgins should get plenty of chances. Prove it, young man. Higgins isn't obviously behind a rookie whose draft status was question. Perhaps Reiman can prove it.

Really well thought out. I agree with most of it and can't argue with most of it. The above are the few exceptions.
 

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Corners and pass rush are the concern for me. Espically in todays NFL. Need to have someone step up from last years rookie class.

Excited with the potential on offense based on the ground game. Can't remember the last time the Cardinals could legitimately bully teams by running the ball.
 

Krangodnzr

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1 – By far the most interesting will be Kyler Murray. He played very well in the last few games last season, so how does he look now? As explosive as his own self pre-injury? And does he carry himself like a leader, as he has all offseason?
I'm cautiously excited about Murray. His overall package of tools has always been borderline elite (other than height) but his attitude and demeanor has been at least partially questionable.

Murray has shown significant maturation over the past few years and the hope is that it can impact play on the field. Murray still needs to get better as a passer and do the small things better.
2 – To us fans, training camp is mostly about individuals, and less about team play. We will not hear much from closed practices, where they truly prepare the specific team play for the season. We will mostly hear about how this or this guy are making a ton of plays, or the opposite. We will also not know much about the coaches’ abilities and work.
Honestly, I love the enthusiasm of training. It's hard not to get excited. But we do need to see the overall trends of training camp.
3 – I have never been a fan of appointing “can’t miss-prospect-”titles in the draft, and no, Marvin Harrison is no exception. But of course, we all want to see what he can do. Does he look as good as advertised?
After hearing multiple Cardinals players hyping Harrison, it's hard not to feel pretty good that the Cardinals have found a great player.
4 – Neither Jalen Thompson nor Budda Baker was deployed in traditional safety-roles last season, but Dadrion Taylor-Demerson might be. Those three could be a difference-making unit on defense.
Cautiously optimistic but I've felt this way about quite a few 4th rounders that didn't work out. The good thing is that the Cardinals didn't really have even a remotely credible injury replacement for their two safeties and DTD is an intriguing young player.
5 – Who plays left guard? My money is on Evan Brown (or could be Brown at C and move Froholdt to LG), but could one of the young guys take over? Isaiah Adams, Christian Jones, Jon Gaines? We will most likely know the regular season starting five when training camp ends.
I think Brown has the inside track based on the gisting we've heard from the Cardinals media. Adams is a potential candidate for either guard spot in 2025.
6 – I am highly excited about Darius Robinson. Might be the addition I am most excited about. I am usually not a big fan of players without one clearly defined position. That said, Robinson is a great fit in both an interior role in Gannon’s 5-1 defense and an edge role in his 4-2.
I am too. I called the Robinson pick a few weeks before the draft. His Senior Bowl highlights were scary good. Robinson is the type of player you move around and get him one-on-one with a less physical OL who he can beat up and get into the backfield.
7 – Will Ossenfort sign, buy or sell at the end of training camp?
I think Ossenfort is only a buyer if there is a major injury.

He will only be a seller if there is excess at a position (not likely). I could see Carter being traded for a late round pick for instance.
8 – I’ll admit that I was not a big fan of Greg Dortch the two first seasons he was with the team. I thought he was only playing in lack of better options, since the WR-unit was so bad. Not anymore. Now Dortch is my guy, and I am rooting hard for a strong camp from him. He probably starts as #4 or #5 on the depth chart, but could he surpass Zay Jones, Chris Moore, Zach Pascal or whoever is above him?
Dortch can play the slot capably and he might be able to make plays in the return game now. He's a useful NFL player.
9 – It makes sense that most people are talking about Max Melton, but I am more interested in Elijah Jones in camp. I mentioned in my mock draft how I multiple times wanted to like him, because of his potential, but just never did, mainly because he is not a traditional Jonathan Gannon-DB. However, Gannon obviously has a plan for him, and that excites me.
I was in the same boat. Using PFFs mock draft simulator, I'd often draft Jones, albeit later. But if you looked at his measureables and production, he was absolutely being undervalued.
10 – The running game might actually be the one aspect where we will have a good sense of the potential after training camp. And it could be great. The offensive line could be very strong in that aspect, and we know what Connor can do. Plus, Tre Benson and Michael Carter could certainly add a dangerous change up-element. Not to mention Kyler Murray’s presence.
The biggest cognitive dissonance that we have seen among the media this off season is the difference in rankings of RB/OL and the actual performance. I think the OL is a middle of the pack group that is supported by pretty good play calling overall.
11 – The edge rush scares the **** out of me. Who steps up? I mean, Ojulari played better last season than most think, so I guess he is the obvious candidate. Gardeck, Collins, Dimukeje, Tyreke Smith are what they are, and none of them are going to keep anyone up at night. Xavier Thomas? Maybe, but let’s not put all our eggs in a fifth-round rookie-basket. This is a scary, scary department, and not for good reasons.
The hope is that the off season hype for Ojulari is real. If not, Robinson needs to be really good, really quickly. What I think happens is that the Cardinals still have an bleh to average pass rush. Monti still needs to add a player or two to this group and I don't think there is a clear roster add right now that will really fix this group.
12 – Elijah Higgins was a pleasant surprise last season. Obviously, he is behind Tre McBride and Tip Reiman, but in Petzings scheme, Higgins should get plenty of chances. Prove it, young man.
TE Room looks like a future strength.
13 – Bilal Nichols and Justin Jones will probably not blow you away, but don’t worry. They were not signed to rush the passer. They were signed to allow others to rush the passer. If the running backs are not having an impressive training camp, chances are that Nichols and Jones are.
Jones was fairly solid as a pass rusher last year, but that could be fools gold. The positive of the signing is that the Cardinals added at least credible NFL roster DL. The group is still pretty weak overall, but it isn't the dreadfully awful group it was last year.
14 – The backup quarterback is always important, and with Kyler Murray as your starter, he is essential. Desmond Ridder was a quality acquisition – especially considering the prize – and it will be great if he can show some sort of promise.
I think a lot of fans have way too high of expectations for back up QBs. It's pretty rare to have a backup QB who can win a lot of games when they are asked to start. Ridder has enough experience to at least be a credible option.
15 – Someone will be the training camp-darling among fans and media. Who? My shot in the dark is on either Dante Stills or Myles Murphy from the defensive line.
My nomination is Mack Wilson. I think he's going to be the guy that we think can be a three down LB who can stop the run, cover the pass, and rush the passer. But he's never been a full time starter that can really do all of those things really well for an extended time. So far he's been a tease.
 

Krangodnzr

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Really well thought out. I agree with most of it and can't argue with most of it. The above are the few exceptions.
Eh Id say using a 3rd round pick on a back up TE means you plan on the guy being a pretty big part of what you want to do.

If Reiman isn't a plus player playing a good amount of snaps pretty quickly, you'd have to consider him a pretty bad draft pick.

With Ojulari, I agree that he wasn't all of that good, but there are reasons to HOPE he can be good. At least we aren't hearing radio silence on him like we did with guys that ended up being pretty regrettable picks early on (Nkemdiche). Gardeck has been glazing Ojulari pretty hard this off season, but I remember him talking up Myjai Sanders pretty hardcore a few years ago.
 

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I'm optimistic about Ojulari and the pass rush. His stats compared very favorably compared to the other edge rushers taken before him in the 2023 draft.

1.Will Anderson, Pick #3: 45 tackles, 7 sacks
2.Tyree Wilson, Pick #7: 29 tackles, 3.5 sacks
3.Lukas Van Ness, Pick #13: 32 tackles, 4 sacks
4.Will McDonald IV, Pick #15: 14 tackles, 3 sacks
5.Myles Murphy, Pick #28: 20 tackles, 3 sacks
6.Nolan Smith, Pick #30: 18 tackles, 1 sack
7.Felix Uzomah, Pick #31: 14 tackles, .5 sacks
8.Derick Hall, Pick #37: 38 tackles, 0 sacks
9.Isaiah Foskey, Pick #40: 9 tackles, 0 sacks
10.BJ Ojulari, Pick #41: 40 tackles, 4 sacks

Ojuarli was the 10th edge taken and statistically, he was the 2nd most productive of those 10. He had trouble staying on the field for the start of the season, but so did everyone on this list besides Will Anderson.

I'm sure he will take a leap forward. He might not turn into a Micah Parsons, but I think he will outperform his draft position.

Now I'm sure this would have been a better comment if I had found all relevant statistics, but I am being lazy.
 
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oaken1

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I'm optimistic about Ojulari and the pass rush. His stats compared very favorably compared to the other edge rushers taken before him in the 2023 draft.

1.Will Anderson, Pick #3: 45 tackles, 7 sacks
2.Tyree Wilson, Pick #7: 29 tackles, 3.5 sacks
3.Lukas Van Ness, Pick #13: 32 tackles, 4 sacks
4.Will McDonald IV, Pick #15: 14 tackles, 3 sacks
5.Myles Murphy, Pick #28: 20 tackles, 3 sacks
6.Nolan Smith, Pick #30: 18 tackles, 1 sack
7.Felix Uzomah, Pick #31: 14 tackles, .5 sacks
8.Derick Hall, Pick #37: 38 tackles, 0 sacks
9.Isaiah Foskey, Pick #40: 9 tackles, 0 sacks
10.BJ Ojulari, Pick #41: 40 tackles, 4 sacks

Ojuarli was the 10th edge taken and statistically, he was the 2nd most productive of those 10. He had trouble staying on the field for the start of the season, but so did everyone on this list besides Will Anderson.

I'm sure he will take a leap forward. He might not turn into a Micah Parsons, but I think he will outperform his draft position.
plus Beej only played like 403 snaps...Anderson had 200 more snaps than him,,,would have been more but he missed two games
 

CardNots

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I'm cautiously excited about Murray. His overall package of tools has always been borderline elite (other than height) but his attitude and demeanor has been at least partially questionable.

Murray has shown significant maturation over the past few years and the hope is that it can impact play on the field. Murray still needs to get better as a passer and do the small things better.

Honestly, I love the enthusiasm of training. It's hard not to get excited. But we do need to see the overall trends of training camp.

After hearing multiple Cardinals players hyping Harrison, it's hard not to feel pretty good that the Cardinals have found a great player.

Cautiously optimistic but I've felt this way about quite a few 4th rounders that didn't work out. The good thing is that the Cardinals didn't really have even a remotely credible injury replacement for their two safeties and DTD is an intriguing young player.

I think Brown has the inside track based on the gisting we've heard from the Cardinals media. Adams is a potential candidate for either guard spot in 2025.

I am too. I called the Robinson pick a few weeks before the draft. His Senior Bowl highlights were scary good. Robinson is the type of player you move around and get him one-on-one with a less physical OL who he can beat up and get into the backfield.

I think Ossenfort is only a buyer if there is a major injury.

He will only be a seller if there is excess at a position (not likely). I could see Carter being traded for a late round pick for instance.

Dortch can play the slot capably and he might be able to make plays in the return game now. He's a useful NFL player.

I was in the same boat. Using PFFs mock draft simulator, I'd often draft Jones, albeit later. But if you looked at his measureables and production, he was absolutely being undervalued.

The biggest cognitive dissonance that we have seen among the media this off season is the difference in rankings of RB/OL and the actual performance. I think the OL is a middle of the pack group that is supported by pretty good play calling overall.

The hope is that the off season hype for Ojulari is real. If not, Robinson needs to be really good, really quickly. What I think happens is that the Cardinals still have an bleh to average pass rush. Monti still needs to add a player or two to this group and I don't think there is a clear roster add right now that will really fix this group.

TE Room looks like a future strength.

Jones was fairly solid as a pass rusher last year, but that could be fools gold. The positive of the signing is that the Cardinals added at least credible NFL roster DL. The group is still pretty weak overall, but it isn't the dreadfully awful group it was last year.

I think a lot of fans have way too high of expectations for back up QBs. It's pretty rare to have a backup QB who can win a lot of games when they are asked to start. Ridder has enough experience to at least be a credible option.

My nomination is Mack Wilson. I think he's going to be the guy that we think can be a three down LB who can stop the run, cover the pass, and rush the passer. But he's never been a full time starter that can really do all of those things really well for an extended time. So far he's been a tease.
Nice pen and observations, gracias
 

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Eh Id say using a 3rd round pick on a back up TE means you plan on the guy being a pretty big part of what you want to do.

If Reiman isn't a plus player playing a good amount of snaps pretty quickly, you'd have to consider him a pretty bad draft pick.

With Ojulari, I agree that he wasn't all of that good, but there are reasons to HOPE he can be good. At least we aren't hearing radio silence on him like we did with guys that ended up being pretty regrettable picks early on (Nkemdiche). Gardeck has been glazing Ojulari pretty hard this off season, but I remember him talking up Myjai Sanders pretty hardcore a few years ago.
I didn't like the Reiman pick, so I can easily see him being a disappointment.

Sure, there are reasons for hope with Ojulari. The statement was that he was better (past tense) than people thought. No, he very much wasn't. But, God, having Ojulari come good this season would be huge.
 

Stout

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I'm optimistic about Ojulari and the pass rush. His stats compared very favorably compared to the other edge rushers taken before him in the 2023 draft.

1.Will Anderson, Pick #3: 45 tackles, 7 sacks
2.Tyree Wilson, Pick #7: 29 tackles, 3.5 sacks
3.Lukas Van Ness, Pick #13: 32 tackles, 4 sacks
4.Will McDonald IV, Pick #15: 14 tackles, 3 sacks
5.Myles Murphy, Pick #28: 20 tackles, 3 sacks
6.Nolan Smith, Pick #30: 18 tackles, 1 sack
7.Felix Uzomah, Pick #31: 14 tackles, .5 sacks
8.Derick Hall, Pick #37: 38 tackles, 0 sacks
9.Isaiah Foskey, Pick #40: 9 tackles, 0 sacks
10.BJ Ojulari, Pick #41: 40 tackles, 4 sacks

Ojuarli was the 10th edge taken and statistically, he was the 2nd most productive of those 10. He had trouble staying on the field for the start of the season, but so did everyone on this list besides Will Anderson.

I'm sure he will take a leap forward. He might not turn into a Micah Parsons, but I think he will outperform his draft position.
Patently false. You're only using 1 major edge stat and the rest of them bury Ojulari.
 

Stout

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plus Beej only played like 403 snaps...Anderson had 200 more snaps than him,,,would have been more but he missed two games
Hmm, yeah, Beej was so much better than we have thought. He's had tons of pressures, turnovers, TFLs and whatnot, just like Anderson. Right? Riiiight? lol

There's lies, damned lies, and statistics. Especially when you (the poster above us) cherry pick stats.
 
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Gandhi

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11 – The edge rush scares the **** out of me. Who steps up? I mean, Ojulari played better last season than most think...Yeah, this is fantasy and hopium. The burden is on you to prove he played better than most think. In what ways did he do so?
Well, it has already been proven in some posts in this thread, but then there is obviously also the eye test. Stats doesn’t always tell the truth.

12 – Elijah Higgins was a pleasant surprise last season. Obviously, he is behind Tre McBride and Tip Reiman, but in Petzings scheme, Higgins should get plenty of chances. Prove it, young man. Higgins isn't obviously behind a rookie whose draft status was question. Perhaps Reiman can prove it.
Again, it is the eye test. Higgins and Reiman is nowhere near the same type of players, and they will certainly not be utilized the same. Reiman will most likely be used the most, just because of Petzing’s system and play style, but he is also capable of being a big factor in the passing game, while Higgins is not yet good enough in the run game. Also, as others have mentioned, if a third-round pick is not ahead of a backup’s backup (Geoff Swaim was ahead of Higgins), then there is something wrong.
 
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Gandhi

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The biggest cognitive dissonance that we have seen among the media this off season is the difference in rankings of RB/OL and the actual performance. I think the OL is a middle of the pack group that is supported by pretty good play calling overall.
I am not sure what rankings you mean, Krang? Last season the Cards’ offensive line was #6 in run block win rate (based on ESPN Analytics Index) and ranked 4th in rushing yards per game and 2nd in rushing yards per attempt. Another statistic metric, based on data from Pro Football Reference, ranks the Cards’ line as the 2nd best run blocking line, managing 3.2 yards before contact (defined as exceptional) last season, and the 11th best overall (which is defined as average to very good). Since then, Paris Johnson have been moved to his natural position, and Jonah Williams have been brought in after posting the best season of his career when he was moved the right tackle (career best in pressure rate, in 1-1 pressure rate, sack rate, and average time to pressure). Plus anyone playing LG cannot be worse than Elijah Wilkinson last season.

I don’t see how those expectations are built on false understanding of rankings and what actually happened on the field? It seems to me that the two things adds up, and that it is fair to have positive expectations for this season.

I think a lot of fans have way too high of expectations for back up QBs. It's pretty rare to have a backup QB who can win a lot of games when they are asked to start. Ridder has enough experience to at least be a credible option.
No, I am not talking about a lot of games. I am talking about keeping the ship above water, should Murray go down. To me, Ridder is a big improvement from Clayton Tune.

My nomination is Mack Wilson. I think he's going to be the guy that we think can be a three down LB who can stop the run, cover the pass, and rush the passer. But he's never been a full time starter that can really do all of those things really well for an extended time. So far he's been a tease.
Good call! Kyzir White is very important to the defense, so maybe those two could form a great tandem.
 

Stout

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Well, it has already been proven in some posts in this thread, but then there is obviously also the eye test. Stats doesn’t always tell the truth.


Again, it is the eye test. Higgins and Reiman is nowhere near the same type of players, and they will certainly not be utilized the same. Reiman will most likely be used the most, just because of Petzing’s system and play style, but he is also capable of being a big factor in the passing game, while Higgins is not yet good enough in the run game. Also, as others have mentioned, if a third-round pick is not ahead of a backup’s backup (Geoff Swaim was ahead of Higgins), then there is something wrong.
On Ojulari, no, it hasn't been proven. Unless you mean proven by flawed logic without included all the, you know, data. And, by the eye test, he played just as limited as his full stats indicate. There was absolutely nothing to make me go, "Whoa, there's a real spark of something there!" Again, I hope he does come good because it would really help the D. That would be future tense, though, because he hasn't shown it yet.

How can you eye test a player who never played a down in the NFL to one who has already sparked a bit in the NFL? If you want to go by type of players, I can buy that argument somewhat. You also can't say Reiman is capable of being a big factor in the passing game. He's a third round rookie without a training camp snap, let alone a real NFL game snap, to his name. He is not capable of anything as a pro...yet. Finally, I can buy the draft pick argument. Although I didn't think it was a good pick, the Cards certainly did.

I think you showed by far more in support of your Reiman take than your Ojulari take.
 

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I didn't like the Reiman pick, so I can easily see him being a disappointment.

Sure, there are reasons for hope with Ojulari. The statement was that he was better (past tense) than people thought. No, he very much wasn't. But, God, having Ojulari come good this season would be huge.
classic Stout
 

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