Zac Allen and Byron Murphy are free agents

[Arz101]

3-4 wins max

 

[PJ1]

Really!

Where is that written?

Yes really. If you want to retain a player it is not after his final contract season is over. If they are good and go to free agency you are very likely to lose them.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Jonathan Allen had 17 sacks total over 4 years when he got that deal. Zach has 11. I struggle to see him in that bracket.

But yes $15m is probably achievable. You'd be ok with $15m per?

No concerns about him only really being good with JJ Watt next to him? That all his production only came with JJ taking double teams?

This is not the point. He will get what he gets.

We may have gotten a better deal if our FO was better at their jobs. Now were behind the 8 ball and will lose another draft pick we shouldn't have.

Again, the point is, we had a window to extend him at a reasonable #, and now we're subject to the whackiness of the FA market. (Deja vu all over again, huh?)

THIS

Letting these guys walk makes it less likely we sign meaningful veteran free agents because it will hurt our comp pick potential.

We'd have to narrow our focus to guys who were cut by their current teams and/or wait until well after the draft.

Singing a couple top- or even mid-level UFAs would be an excellent indication that we plan to compete this year.

Again, THIS.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah, I think you're misremembering the vibe on this one.

Should Cardinals extend Zach Allen?

Allen extension?

www.arizonasportsfans.com

Few subjects on ASFN have garnered this level of agreement!

Wow over 94%

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm talking about the perception on how good Allen is not on whether people wanted to re-sign him.

Allen is a good player in the NFL and has been for awhile now. People saying to re-sign him for $10 mil per year were way off on how good he is.

Dude, this is one of those times to just say, “huh, I guess I misremembered that one.”

 

[Solar7]

Letting these guys walk makes it less likely we sign meaningful veteran free agents because it will hurt our comp pick potential.

We'd have to narrow our focus to guys who were cut by their current teams and/or wait until well after the draft.

Singing a couple top- or even mid-level UFAs would be an excellent indication that we plan to compete this year.

Why bother?

I mean, really. I want to "grow" this year instead of "compete." What's 8-9 going to get us? This is the greatest reset the franchise has had in the AZ years, IMO. Kyler could use more recovery time than less.

It's been close to five years now that we're the team near the top of having to replenish the entire roster, with consistent turnover. Let's reset things, and hope that Kyler's large deal is cheaper than what new QBs end up getting in terms of the percentage of the cap. Let's lose now for prosperity tomorrow.

 

[Arz101]

Why bother?

I mean, really. I want to "grow" this year instead of "compete." What's 8-9 going to get us? This is the greatest reset the franchise has had in the AZ years, IMO. Kyler could use more recovery time than less.

It's been close to five years now that we're the team near the top of having to replenish the entire roster, with consistent turnover. Let's reset things, and hope that Kyler's large deal is cheaper than what new QBs end up getting in terms of the percentage of the cap. Let's lose now for prosperity tomorrow.

They changed everything. The more you change....

 

[WisconsinCard]

It's exactly how it works and they aren't waiting on them. They will be looking at other free agents including replacements and using that themselves to counter the other sides demands. This has all been going on for weeks already.

The likelihood is they will go because it only take 1 desperate team out of 32 to offer more than market value. It's why free agents have a reputation for getting overpaid. Word was that the team offered Kirk $13m to stay last year, no way they could pay what the Jags did. But it's not certain, players do test the market and remain.

Their agent already knows what interest there is and what money he can get. If neither re-sign before the 15th then it's likely they don't stay.

I think you got this backwards. The fact is I have read many times an offer is void after you leave the office. They will not allow you to pit teams against one another.

 

[kerouac9]

I think you got this backwards. The fact is I have read many times an offer is void after you leave the office. They will not allow you to pit teams against one another.

Depends on the player

 

[WisconsinCard]

Depends on the player

Doesn't diminish what I stated. Or do you just like to argue? The dude stated it is like that for most every player. It is not, so you are proving my point. Unless that was what you're trying to do??

 

[GatorAZ]

3-4 wins max

#embracethetank

 

[Jakester]

#embracethetank

Collapse for Caleb perhaps

 

[BritCard]

Sounds like exactly the kind of deal he should have been signed to last offseason - doubt he gets less than $15 at this point, and that would be a tough pill to swallow for a good but not great player.

If he's going to get $15m this year why would he have signed for $12m last year? That would be pretty dumb of him and his agent no? You don't think his agent might have said "They are offering you $12m now because they know you're going to get $15m next year"?

Can we please drop this fantasy that players will sign after year 3 for cheaper? The only players who sign after year 3 are the great ones already being offered peak money. Cornerstone players.

This is evident by how rare 3rd year extensions and that have already proven they are Pro Bowl/All Pro level players.

The worst player I can think of that signed an early extension was Jalen Thompson. A completely average player by NFL standards (albeit one of the better players on this roster) who only signed because Keim already gave him all the money he was going to get this year. $12m per for Jalen was peak money.

If we offered Allen $16m last year we could have signed him early I'm sure. Players don't sign early for cheap.

Players that signed early contracts from the NFL draft were multi award winning Deebo for $24m per year, 2 x Pro Bowl Guard Elgton Jenkins for $17m per year (!), Saints center Erik McCoy for $12.75m per year (highest paid non pro bowl center), multi Pro Bowl AJ Brown for $24m per year, multi Pro Bowl DK Metcalf for $24m per year, multi pro bowl Terry McLaurin for $23.5m per year, Pro Bowler Dawson Knox for $12m per year, multi Pro Bowler Maxx Crosby for $23.5m per year and Pro Bowl slot receiver Hunter Renfrow for $16m per year.

I don't think any of these players are making more if they hit the market this year. They certainly didn't sign for 20% discounts.

Sorry, not specifically aimed at you here. The "We could have signed him cheaper after year 3" myth is a pet peeve. It just doesn't happen, or is so incredibly rare as to not be something we should think should happen.

 

[BritCard]

I disagree. After 2021, it was apparent that Allen is a pretty good DL. I won't be shocked to see him get just shy of the franchise tag number.

You would have signed him to a $15m+ a year contract based on 3 seasons that produced 6 sacks?

I thought Allen was JAG until about half way through the 2021 season. Would have been immensely brave to extend him after 7-8 good games for good money. And we all would have probably said Keim was nuts.

 

[BritCard]

Why bother?

I mean, really. I want to "grow" this year instead of "compete." What's 8-9 going to get us? This is the greatest reset the franchise has had in the AZ years, IMO. Kyler could use more recovery time than less.

It's been close to five years now that we're the team near the top of having to replenish the entire roster, with consistent turnover. Let's reset things, and hope that Kyler's large deal is cheaper than what new QBs end up getting in terms of the percentage of the cap. Let's lose now for prosperity tomorrow.

2020 fans: What is Keim doing? He keeps thinking were a vet FA away from winning the superbowl. This roster is trash. He needs to tear it down, lose the dead money, build some draft capital and reset.

2023 fans: So glad we finally got a new GM who will do things better. But I don't want to suck next year. We need to compete. Don't tear it down, just do some light plastic surgery.

 

[BritCard]

Doesn't diminish what I stated. Or do you just like to argue? The dude stated it is like that for most every player. It is not, so you are proving my point. Unless that was what you're trying to do??

It's like that for top players.

Maybe not some mid to low level roster guy that's easily replaced. But do you think they tell Zach Allen that they are done even if his agent comes back and says "Add another 500k and he's yours"?

 

[Krangodnzr]

You would have signed him to a $15m+ a year contract based on 3 seasons that produced 6 sacks?

I thought Allen was JAG until about half way through the 2021 season. Would have been immensely brave to extend him after 7-8 good games for good money. And we all would have probably said Keim was nuts.

No. I would have re-signed him last season.

 

[Jetstream Green]

3-4 wins max

That could happen, but I am thinking more 6-7 wins, but then again, they could just win 2 or could just as well pull off 9 for playoff contention because the NFL is now one big sloppy mess of mediocrity where basically the whole crappy NFC East could rise to the occasion in just one season... nothing would shock me, and any success would also not get my full confidence

 

[Krangodnzr]

2020 fans: What is Keim doing? He keeps thinking were a vet FA away from winning the superbowl. This roster is trash. He needs to tear it down, lose the dead money, build some draft capital and reset.

2023 fans: So glad we finally got a new GM who will do things better. But I don't want to suck next year. We need to compete. Don't tear it down, just do some light plastic surgery.

What I want to see is for the Cardinals to have a strong draft focused on the basics. Free agency should be focused on young, veterans, that are cheaper with upside.

 

[BritCard]

No. I would have re-signed him last season.

That's what I'm saying. It would have cost $15m to sign him last year. Maybe you get away with $14m. But certainly not $12m or less.

Agent's aren't stupid. They know that if you want to sign a guy in year 3 you see an ascending player you want to build around.

In my opinion the talk of signing him last year is pure hindsight. I don't recall anyone here even mentioning it offhand. I think most would have seen signing him to a fat extension as a huge risk based off about 8 decent to good games.

Edit - Also, I'd wager they did try to sign Allen last year. They extended JT and Allen had done at least as much as JT had to that point. Would make sense that they had those talks with JT, Allen and Murphy. I believe Jalen represented himself so that might be why it gone done when Byron and Zach didn't.

Murphy has the same agent as Kirk so I reckon low odds of him returning. If he can get $18m for Kirk he can probably get $14m+ for Murphy. Zach uses the same agent as JJ Watt but he represents a lot of big names.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

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[slanidrac16]

Nobody should know these two players more than us. One of the weakest parts of this organization is recognizing talent as it’s growing while coaching that player up.
We could and should have signed Allen before last year based on what we knew about him and his ceiling. Zach Allen’s value soared on what he did in 2022. A price paid a year ago would be a bargain today. And a price paid today will be a bargain tomorrow if the player pans out.
Allen was 24 years old last. If offered a 15m bonus and 3 years of 33m I think he would have jumped at it.
Teams draft a player with the hopes of striking gold. Every player signed to a contract is a risk. Either an incorrect evaluation, injury, personal conduct and even a lack of coaching that player up.
Teams take a leap of faith when signing a player early. It’s recognizing said players ability is what has lacked with this club.

 

[Krangodnzr]

That's what I'm saying. It would have cost $15m to sign him last year. Maybe you get away with $14m. But certainly not $12m or less.

Agent's aren't stupid. They know that if you want to sign a guy in year 3 you see an ascending player you want to build around.

In my opinion the talk of signing him last year is pure hindsight. I don't recall anyone here even mentioning it offhand. I think most would have seen signing him to a fat extension as a huge risk based off about 8 decent to good games.

Edit - Also, I'd wager they did try to sign Allen last year. They extended JT and Allen had done at least as much as JT had to that point. Would make sense that they had those talks with JT, Allen and Murphy. I believe Jalen represented himself so that might be why it gone done when Byron and Zach didn't.

Murphy has the same agent as Kirk so I reckon low odds of him returning. If he can get $18m for Kirk he can probably get $14m+ for Murphy. Zach uses the same agent as JJ Watt but he represents a lot of big names.

Yep we agree here. It was fantasyland that he was ever signing for $10 million after his 2021 performance. And there wasn't enough good tape to re-sign him before 2021.

In 2021, Zach Allen became a very good player. His pressure numbers are well above average. He isn't a great player though, but he is worth just shy of the franchise tag number.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

If he's going to get $15m this year why would he have signed for $12m last year? That would be pretty dumb of him and his agent no?

Perhaps you're familiar with "bird in the hand" theory? It's hilarious that you seem to be so well aware of his financial situation to make assumptions.

You don't think his agent might have said "They are offering you $12m now because they know you're going to get $15m next year"?

Again - people trade the cost certainty of guaranteed money over future money all the time. Is this some sort of epiphany for you?

Can we please drop this fantasy that players will sign after year 3 for cheaper? The only players who sign after year 3 are the great ones already being offered peak money. Cornerstone players.

This is evident by how rare 3rd year extensions and that have already proven they are Pro Bowl/All Pro level players.

The worst player I can think of that signed an early extension was Jalen Thompson. A completely average player by NFL standards (albeit one of the better players on this roster) who only signed because Keim already gave him all the money he was going to get this year. $12m per for Jalen was peak money.

If we offered Allen $16m last year we could have signed him early I'm sure. Players don't sign early for cheap.

Players that signed early contracts from the NFL draft were multi award winning Deebo for $24m per year, 2 x Pro Bowl Guard Elgton Jenkins for $17m per year (!), Saints center Erik McCoy for $12.75m per year (highest paid non pro bowl center), multi Pro Bowl AJ Brown for $24m per year, multi Pro Bowl DK Metcalf for $24m per year, multi pro bowl Terry McLaurin for $23.5m per year, Pro Bowler Dawson Knox for $12m per year, multi Pro Bowler Maxx Crosby for $23.5m per year and Pro Bowl slot receiver Hunter Renfrow for $16m per year.

I don't think any of these players are making more if they hit the market this year. They certainly didn't sign for 20% discounts.

Sorry, not specifically aimed at you here. The "We could have signed him cheaper after year 3" myth is a pet peeve. It just doesn't happen, or is so incredibly rare as to not be something we should think should happen.

I love love love you bring up all these examples of players UNLIKE Allen, then bring up a perfect example of a good but not great player that THE CARDINALS EXTENDED BEFORE HE HIT FA IN THOMPSON! That is the whole point.

True galaxy brain stuff.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Would have been immensely brave to extend him after 7-8 good games for good money. And we all would have probably said Keim was nuts.

Do you just have an obsession with being proven wrong and putting out misinformation? LAST OFFSEASON 94% of ASFN SAID THEY WANTED HIM EXTENDED.

Stop flat out lying.