Rod Graves Question

outcent13

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Ok so I know Rod Graves had some big misses. However, my 10 year old son watches tons of highlights from the season and not just individual teams.

One thing I noticed is they keep bringing up names that ring a bell like Justin Bethel, John Brown, Calais , and Andre Robert’s for crying out loud. And I can’t help but wonder if he was a bit underrated? Not sure how to research it, but is there a way to figure out what GM had more longer tenured, solid players drafted on their watch?

Never mind the obvious, like Larry , a Quan, Darnell , Dansby etc.
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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Know nothing about which GM's are the most successful for tenured players but it's funny you mention Andre Roberts lol. He's had like 2 returns for TD's this season alone. Not sure if it was punt or kickoff but I remember seeing him score at least twice while thinking "damn, didn't think he was still even playing"? He played for the Redskins for several years after he left Arizona also.
 
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outcent13

outcent13

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Know nothing about which GM's are the most successful for tenured players but it's funny you mention Andre Roberts lol. He's had like 2 returns for TD's this season alone. Not sure if it was punt or kickoff but I remember seeing him score at least twice while thinking "damn, didn't think he was still even playing"? He played for the Redskins for several years after he left Arizona also.
That’s actually why I looked into it. I was shocked it was the same guy and he was still in the league. Then I noticed guys like Bethel and Senio Kelemete who have each had solid and long nfl careers .
 

football karma

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i wont bore you with the context, but i have some insight here:

in the Graves days, the HC had lots and lots of influence on the draft.

part of this was a function of the orgs reputation: to get Denny or Whis to come here, they had to agree to give that coach substantial personnel input.

so Graves gets credit for putting those players "on the menu" -- but really those were Denny's or Whis' drafts
 

Crimson Warrior

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Rod Graves... a name which will live in infamy.

IIRC, early in his tenure, and it is during this timeframe which he earned most of his ill will from the Cardinal fan base, Rod Graves's principal problem seemed to be player contract negotiations. Specifically, he really struggled getting rookie deals in place, and also in effectively managing our cap space (remember the much panned "keeping our powder dry" comment).

Also, he presided over the the 2003 draft 1st round disaster, where we selected Bryant "skillet hands" Johnson, and Calvin Pace, who himself was a consensus 3rd round target, and while also passing on the likes of hometown hero Terrell Suggs.

Yet this same 2003 draft also yielded HOF'er Anquan Boldin, who not only played like The Terminator, but was almost single-handedly responsible for a culture shift in the Cardinals' locker room. Boldin brought a will to win to the franchise that had been sorely lacking for decades, and was able to use the public perception momentum from the new stadium so that finally, high profile FAs like Edgerrin James could be successfully recruited to ARZ.

Like the entire Franchise, Graves fortunes seemed to shift once construction on the new stadium eventually began (a saga worth it's own story). The new stadium became a metaphor for the Cardinals transitioning from 1970's-era-type franchise management to a 21st century approach to winning in the NFL, with this effort being led by the newly ordained CEO Michael Bidwill, following the retirement of his father William "Dollar Bill" Bidwill, himself mostly a villain to long-suffering Cardinals fans.

But going back to Graves, and to the OP's question, yes. Considering that even his defining failure, the 2003 draft 1st round debacle, also yielded the best 2nd round pick in Cardinals' draft history, and arguably a top five all-time Cardinals' player, yes, history has been a bit unkind to Graves. As GM, Graves later participated in the Cardinals 2008 season Superbowl run. Long-time Graves detractors are loath to give him any credit for the Franchise's greatest moment in decades, but there's no denying that as GM, he is at least partly responsible for the improbable 2008 NFC Championship season. How much credit he actually deserves has never really been fully explored.

Rod Graves. Supervillain or Superhero? A generation of Cardinals' fans have already decided, but the next generation may come to a different conclusion.
 
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ajcardfan

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Rod Graves... a name which will live in infamy.

IIRC, early in his tenure, and it is during this timeframe which he earned most of his ill will from the Cardinal fan base, Rod Graves principal problem seemed to be player contract negotiations. Specifically, he really struggled getting rookie deals in place, and also in effectively managing our cap space (remember the much panned "keeping our powder dry" comment).

Also, he presided over the the 2003 draft 1st round disaster, where we selected Bryant "skillet hands" Johnson, and Calvin Pace, who himself was a consensus 3rd round target, and while also passing on the likes of hometown hero Terrell Suggs.

Yet this same 2003 draft also yielded HOF'er Anquan Boldin, who not only played like The Terminator, but was almost single-handedly responsible for a culture shift in the Cardinals' locker room. Boldin brought a will to win to the franchise that had been sorely lacking for decades, and was able to use the public perception momentum from the new stadium so that finally, high profile FAs like Edgerrin James could be successfully recruited to ARZ.

Like the entire Franchise, Graves fortunes seemed to shift once construction on the new stadium eventually began (a saga worth it's own story). The new stadium became a metaphor for the Cardinals transitioning from 1970's-era-type franchise management to a 21st century approach to winning in the NFL, with this effort being led by the newly ordained CEO Michael Bidwill, following the retirement of his father William "Dollar Bill" Bidwill, himself mostly a villain to long-suffering Cardinals fans.

But going back to Graves, and to the OP's question, yes. Considering that even his defining failure, the 2003 draft 1st round debacle, also yielded the best 2nd round pick in Cardinals' draft history, and arguably a top five all-time Cardinals' player, yes, history has been a bit unkind to Graves. As GM, Graves later participated in the Cardinals 2008 season Superbowl run. Long-time Graves detractors are loath to give him any credit for the Franchise's greatest moment in decades, but there's no denying that as GM, he is at least partly responsible for the improbable 2008 NFC Championship season. How much credit he actually deserves has never really been fully explored.

Rod Graves. Supervillain or Superhero? A generation of Cardinals' fans have already decided, but the next generation may come to a different conclusion.
Steve Keim stood on the table to draft Boldin. Graves was scared of his injury. This is a true story. It is towards the end of this story.


In 2004, Dennis Green took over and that is actually when we started drafting players best on the board who had slipped. Before that, as the old timers know, we had a strategy of drafting guys earlier, sometimes a lot earlier, than projected. And, every year trying to hype and fluff UDFA into real NFL talent.

Nostalgia for Graves? Wow.

Dennis Green is responsible for having us draft like a professional franchise.
 

Arz101

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Graves had four playoffs wins for the Cardinals. Keim has been GM longer than Graves and has one playoff win. I think we don't need to put him in ROH but I think Graves deserves more respect than how he was viewed at the time of his exit. Carry On.
 

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Graves was a manager, not a scout. I don’t credit or demerit him for those draft picks.

His job was trying to win football games while managing Bill Bidwill. Almost impossible job, but he still managed to guide the Cards to the Super Bowl.

The fact that he never got another look at an NFL job should tell you everything you need to know.
 

Cheesebeef

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Graves was a manager, not a scout. I don’t credit or demerit him for those draft picks.

His job was trying to win football games while managing Bill Bidwill. Almost impossible job, but he still managed to guide the Cards to the Super Bowl.

The fact that he never got another look at an NFL job should tell you everything you need to know.
Actually he did as a Senior Director of Football Operations... with the Jets. (Insert joke here about an “NFL job”).
 

Cbus cardsfan

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I don’t think it’s so much revisionist history as it is just having more context.
Disagree. The one good thing he did was let Denny Green run the talent evaluation.

He was as bad as it gets when it came to free agency. Remember him having to do background checks on players two weeks into FA?
He cleansed the roster of Dansby, Rolle, and Boldin on the same day.
I remember his re-signing OG Chris Dishman to, at the time, a pretty big contract extension and Dishman was Max Garcia bad.
He gave a big contract to Stewart Bradley, who was abysmal. His free agent failures were a long list.

Levi Brown over AP. I'll actually give him a pass on draft picks because they're a crapshoot anyway. But passing on AP was egregious. He admittedly didn't spend time scouting college players.

He was a nice guy and probably a great person, but a terrible GM. Like K9 said, it's been a decade and no other NFL team has let him around any personnel decisions. That's actually hard to do in the NFL community.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Disagree. The one good thing he did was let Denny Green run the talent evaluation.

He was as bad as it gets when it came to free agency. Remember him having to do background checks on players two weeks into FA?
He cleansed the roster of Dansby, Rolle, and Boldin on the same day.
I remember his re-signing OG Chris Dishman to, at the time, a pretty big contract extension and Dishman was Max Garcia bad.
He gave a big contract to Stewart Bradley, who was abysmal. His free agent failures were a long list.

Levi Brown over AP. I'll actually give him a pass on draft picks because they're a crapshoot anyway. But passing on AP was egregious. He admittedly didn't spend time scouting college players.

He was a nice guy and probably a great person, but a terrible GM. Like K9 said, it's been a decade and no other NFL team has let him around any personnel decisions. That's actually hard to do in the NFL community.
Amen. Frederickson over jamir Miller.
 

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