Suns @ Warriors Friday game thread 12-3-2021

[GatorAZ]

He just doesn’t get it. Like there was a play in the warriors game where Ayton got the ball literally right next to the basket. Instead of jumping and dunking he stayed on the ground and threw up some weird spinning shot that hit the rim and spun off. He was shocked it didn’t go in. Know what would have gone in? An easy dunk. And it’s about being lazy or soft or both. But because he makes a couple other fadeaways finito is fine that he doesn’t make those plays. Because who needs those easy points, right?

He’s not a decisive player. It’s why he will never be a star. People can call it unselfishness/deferring but I’ve known it since college he just ain’t that dude.

 

[AzStevenCal]

He’s not a decisive player. It’s why he will never be a star. People can call it unselfishness/deferring but I’ve known it since day 1 in college he just ain’t that dude.

Maybe he'll never become the dominant force he should be but even right now, the gap between Ayton and stardom is too small to warrant the "never" claim IMO.

 

[GatorAZ]

Maybe he'll never become the dominant force he should be but even right now, the gap between Ayton and stardom is too small to warrant the "never" claim IMO.

Depends on your definition of star. There have been all-stars that I don’t consider dominant players. I’m referring to him being a dominant star rather than the accolade definition.

 

[Krangodnzr]

He just doesn’t get it. Like there was a play in the warriors game where Ayton got the ball literally right next to the basket. Instead of jumping and dunking he stayed on the ground and threw up some weird spinning shot that hit the rim and spun off. He was shocked it didn’t go in. Know what would have gone in? An easy dunk. And it’s about being lazy or soft or both. But because he makes a couple other fadeaways finito is fine that he doesn’t make those plays. Because who needs those easy points, right?

Its like watching the Cardinals...I dont mind some of those Murray TD runs because they are football versions of a dunk.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well teach me. Like I’ve said what would be an acceptable percentage for him to shoot in the NBA in your opinion. Because as you say he’s leaving points on the board. He’s already at 60%

So how many baskets do you think Ayton leaves on the floor a game? Because you only have 4 misses to work with. 1? 2? I keep asking what’s realistic for you.

So say you think he misses 1 shot a game because he’s going up “soft” that puts him at 70%

Do you understand that Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Jabar KG,Dirk NEVER came close to 70% from the field. Do you know why? Because it’s unrealistic that’s why. The elite for his position with the amount of shots top out at about 60% and where Ayton is at.

I mean I keep asking and you keep not answering. Hey how many baskets do you think he leaves on the floor because he’s “going up soft” please tell me.

I don’t know because I don’t sit there every game and keep track of stats. I watch the game and see him go up softly. I guess you could go back and count the “soft” comments that I and everyone else makes. And I guarantee you if those guys got as little attention defensively or were guarded by guards and small forwards in the post they likely would have averaged that kind of absurd percentage bc they wouldn’t go soft. But they required much more attention bc they were much greater threats offensively.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Maybe he'll never become the dominant force he should be but even right now, the gap between Ayton and stardom is too small to warrant the "never" claim IMO.

I don’t know if the current gap is that small. But I believe he will eventually be a star. Mega star? Likely not.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Its like watching the Cardinals...I dont mind some of those Murray TD runs because they are football versions of a dunk.

Right. It’s taking the sure thing.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Depends on your definition of star. There have been all-stars that I don’t consider dominant players. I’m referring to him being a dominant star rather than the accolade definition.

You're right, the word "star" doesn't tell us much. I think Ayton will make a few all star teams playing just at his current level (assuming the Suns continue to be relevant).

So in that regard, he's just about reached star level. But he has the ability to be truly dominant and it's questionable whether he'll ever have the drive to get there.

But if it weren't for lofty expectations driven by his draft slot and his physical gifts, he'd be far more appreciated by Suns fans IMO.

Anyway, I'm confident most teams would be thrilled to have him so whether he fits everyone's definition of a star or not, we're going to have to pay him star money to keep him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You're right, the word "star" doesn't tell us much. I think Ayton will make a few all star teams playing just at his current level (assuming the Suns continue to be relevant).

So in that regard, he's just about reached star level. But he has the ability to be truly dominant and it's questionable whether he'll ever have the drive to get there.

But if it weren't for lofty expectations driven by his draft slot and his physical gifts, he'd be far more appreciated by Suns fans IMO.

Anyway, I'm confident most teams would be thrilled to have him so whether he fits everyone's definition of a star or not, we're going to have to pay him star money to keep him.

Agreed

 

[Krangodnzr]

You're right, the word "star" doesn't tell us much. I think Ayton will make a few all star teams playing just at his current level (assuming the Suns continue to be relevant).

So in that regard, he's just about reached star level. But he has the ability to be truly dominant and it's questionable whether he'll ever have the drive to get there.

But if it weren't for lofty expectations driven by his draft slot and his physical gifts, he'd be far more appreciated by Suns fans IMO.

Anyway, I'm confident most teams would be thrilled to have him so whether he fits everyone's definition of a star or not, we're going to have to pay him star money to keep him.

Ayton is a mild disappointment. You expect the #1 overall pick to become a franchise cornerstone. He isn't that. He's also not Michael Olowokandi either. He's a legitimate good player, but he doesn't look like a transformational player.

He's a borderline max player.

 

[Hoop Head]

Ayton is a mild disappointment. You expect the #1 overall pick to become a franchise cornerstone. He isn't that. He's also not Michael Olowokandi either. He's a legitimate good player, but he doesn't look like a transformational player.

He's a borderline max player.

He's the big version of Andrew Wiggins. All the talent and ability in the world but lacks the drive and mental fortitude to put it altogether and be more than he currently is.

 

[Krangodnzr]

He's the big version of Andrew Wiggins. All the talent and ability in the world but lacks the drive and mental fortitude to put it altogether and be more than he currently is.

Wiggins has been pretty inefficient through out his career. That's not Ayton's problem. He just lacks the drive to be great.

 

[Finito]

I don’t know because I don’t sit there every game and keep track of stats. I watch the game and see him go up softly. I guess you could go back and count the “soft” comments that I and everyone else makes. And I guarantee you if those guys got as little attention defensively or were guarded by guards and small forwards in the post they likely would have averaged that kind of absurd percentage bc they wouldn’t go soft. But they required much more attention bc they were much greater threats offensively.

So still no answer huh

 

[Krangodnzr]

So still no answer huh

You're asking for something thats kind of impossible to quantify.

Its much more qualitative than quantitative.

One thing that shows you how soft Ayton is, is his startling lack of free throw attempts. Dude just doesn't draw contact.

 

[Finito]

You're asking for something thats kind of impossible to quantify.

Its much more qualitative than quantitative.

One thing that shows you how soft Ayton is, is his startling lack of free throw attempts. Dude just doesn't draw contact.

Oh great maybe you can answer it. No, if your argument is he misses shots because he goes up weak then you better be able to tell me or give me an idea how many you think he misses a game

Trust me I know it can’t be answered . Because in answering that all your doing is showing that your holding him to a standard nobody in the history of the NBA has ever met.

It’s unrealistic expectations.

 

[Raindog]

I'm trying to think of a historically analogous player to compare Ayton to in terms of overall impact, at least where he is about now and anticipating where he may end up assuming the "fire" never fully lights in him.

I think he seems clearly ahead of the Joe Barry Carroll and Benoit Benjamin comparisons he was drawing early on. Possibilities include Sam Perkins, Bill Cartwright, Bill Laimbeer, Jack Sikma? Maybe Robert Parish, with any luck?

It's unfortunate that (at least currently) he doesn't seem to be on the trajectory of Hakeem/David Robinson/Tim Duncan, which he clearly has the talent to achieve if he really had the drive.

 

[Bufalay]

I'm trying to think of a historically analogous player to compare Ayton to in terms of overall impact, at least where he is about now and anticipating where he may end up assuming the "fire" never fully lights in him.

I think he seems clearly ahead of the Joe Barry Carroll and Benoit Benjamin comparisons he was drawing early on. Possibilities include Sam Perkins, Bill Cartwright, Bill Laimbeer, Jack Sikma? Maybe Robert Parish, with any luck?

It's unfortunate that (at least currently) he doesn't seem to be on the trajectory of Hakeem/David Robinson/Tim Duncan, which he clearly has the talent to achieve if he really had the drive.

In terms of impact on winning I think Ayton is comparable to Marion. Obviously their games are not similar at all, but both dominate(d) the game in subtle ways and have/had frustratingly glaring holes in their games.

 

[95pro]

Ayton % is at 62 right now.

Less than 5 feet he’s at 75%. 5ft to 14ft the percentage drops to 48%.

My take on him being soft…is he’d have more points and more attempts, well if he attempted more. BUT we see him make a pass instead of dunking, one dribble and dunk, drive and dunk or any assertive offensive play.

115 of 202 attempts have been less than 5 feet.

Jokic: 118 of 295 attempts are less than 5 feet, his percentage is also 75%.

Aytons lack of attempts from anywhere else “raises” his overall percentage compared to a guy Jokic who’s hitting from all over the court. IMO Ayton would have more points and attempts if he wasn’t either stripped, tied up for a jump ball or simply chooses to pass.

 

[Finito]

Ayton % is at 62 right now.

Less than 5 feet he’s at 75%. 5ft to 14ft the percentage drops to 48%.

My take on him being soft…is he’d have more points and more attempts, well if he attempted more. BUT we see him make a pass instead of dunking, one dribble and dunk, drive and dunk or any assertive offensive play.

115 of 202 attempts have been less than 5 feet.

Jokic: 118 of 295 attempts are less than 5 feet, his percentage is also 75%.

Aytons lack of attempts from anywhere else “raises” his overall percentage compared to a guy Jokic who’s hitting from all over the court. IMO Ayton would have more points and attempts if he wasn’t either stripped, tied up for a jump ball or simply chooses to pass.

Jokic is a 1 off. I’ve never seen a center like him he’s pretty much a center who is a point guard who’s game goes out to the 3 point line.

As far as him being stripped. His turnovers a game are only 1.6 and that’s really good. Hes actually a really good ball handler according to the numbers.

 

[95pro]

Jokic is a 1 off. I’ve never seen a center like him he’s pretty much a center who is a point guard who’s game goes out to the 3 point line.

As far as him being stripped. His turnovers a game are only 1.6 and that’s really good. Hes actually a really good ball handler according to the numbers.

Dwight Howard, less than 5 feet from the goal is at 69%.

Overall he's at 65% compared to Ayton at 62%. Is howard a one off too?


You're continuing to ignore Ayton's lack of everything else aside from 5 feet.

 

[elindholm]

Trust me I know it can’t be answered . Because in answering that all your doing is showing that your holding him to a standard nobody in the history of the NBA has ever met.

It's not that hard to quantify. basketball-reference.net gives breakdowns of where shots are attempted from and what the accuracy is in each range.

Over his career, Ayton has taken 48% of his shots from a distance of 0-3 feet (dunks and layups), and 25% of his shots from 3-10 feet (in the paint, more or less). Only 27% of his shots are from more than 10 feet.

From 0-3 feet, he converts 75%. From 3-10 feet, he converts 51%.

To choose one comparison, only 29% of Jokic's attempts are right at the rim, and another 30% are from 3-10 feet. 41% are from farther out.

Jokic's conversion from 0-3 feet is 70%, although that overall number is dragged down by his first few years, when he did much less well at the time. His conversion from 3-10 feet is 55%. So it's a bit of a wash between him and Ayton from close range -- Ayton better right at the rim, Jokic better when he has to execute something skilled.

Both players' numbers are higher this year than their career averages, by comparable amounts.

The numbers do call into question this board's obssession with Karl-Anthony Towns. Towns takes 33% of his shots from 0-3 feet at 24% from 3-10 feet, lower even than Jokic. And he doesn't do particularly well on them: 71% at the rim, 48% in the paint.

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm trying to think of a historically analogous player to compare Ayton to in terms of overall impact, at least where he is about now and anticipating where he may end up assuming the "fire" never fully lights in him.

I think he seems clearly ahead of the Joe Barry Carroll and Benoit Benjamin comparisons he was drawing early on. Possibilities include Sam Perkins, Bill Cartwright, Bill Laimbeer, Jack Sikma? Maybe Robert Parish, with any luck?

It's unfortunate that (at least currently) he doesn't seem to be on the trajectory of Hakeem/David Robinson/Tim Duncan, which he clearly has the talent to achieve if he really had the drive.

We kind of have an idea of his trajectory and it looks pretty good IMO.

The Ayton Plan

Just a reminder, the Suns tried multiple times to turn college centers, who just couldn't hack center in the NBA, into power forwards---Shumate, Perry, for ex. They were better off when they had a weaker (but good shooting) center like Adams and put power forwards around him. Probably the only...

www.arizonasportsfans.com

 

[AzStevenCal]

We kind of have an idea of his trajectory and it looks pretty good IMO.

The Ayton Plan

Just a reminder, the Suns tried multiple times to turn college centers, who just couldn't hack center in the NBA, into power forwards---Shumate, Perry, for ex. They were better off when they had a weaker (but good shooting) center like Adams and put power forwards around him. Probably the only...

www.arizonasportsfans.com

I think we'll give him what he wants. If he wants a 5 year deal with a player option or two, we'll do that. There's just no good reason not to and that wasn't the case when the deadline passed.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You're asking for something thats kind of impossible to quantify.

Its much more qualitative than quantitative.

One thing that shows you how soft Ayton is, is his startling lack of free throw attempts. Dude just doesn't draw contact.

Krang you’re wasting your typing at him. This is washin, rinse, repeat for him. Ayton is infallible. We share the same perspective. And we are right. That’s enough.

 

[Mainstreet]

I wouldn't trade Ayton for Bam Adebayo straight up and he has been an All-Star. Ayton has a much more rounded game.

If it comes to that, I wouldn't trade Ayton for Rudy Gobert either.