FO thinks our cornerback situation is dire

[Solar7]

It's 'odd' that you haven't noted that Watt is in fact healthy and played over a thousand snaps last season.

If you don't want it to turn into another Butler/PP argument stop revisiting it.

And age is irrelevant. You can play or you can't, The most recently available information says that Butler still can.

Dude, your levels of Kool-Aid are just insane. Watt got in one healthy season and struggled. He got triple teamed as the only option on the Texans D, but... come on here. He's played two healthy seasons since 2016. I adore the guy for the stuff he brings off the field, but to say that "age is irrelevant?" If that's true, why don't most players play into their 50s?

I don't think you're capable of saying anything negative about this team. Like we're on the cusp of a Super Bowl - instead of second to last in playoff appearances, dead last in drafting, and coached by a guy who hasn't had a winning season at any level of football since 2015.

 

[BritCard]

Did I bring up Nelson here? It's weird to ask me to stop talking about him when I didn't.

I find it weird that some are just completely sold on us having an elite pass rush. We have CJ back, which should help, and Watt will help when healthy, but it's odd.

Also, Patrick Peterson played the 3rd most total snaps at DB in the league last year, and Butler 23rd most. This shouldn't turn into PP vs. Butler again, but Butler gave up a ton more on a lesser volume of plays. The dude is just not that good. He was more "efficient" with the ball in the air, but he's slow, old, and again - gave up the most yardage and receptions in the league last year.

1. Nelson wasn't aimed at you. It was a general observation and a relevant comparison to someone we keep being told we should sign.

2. Why wouldn't we have a good pass rush? We were 4th in sacks last year with Reddick and Golden. 4th is elite right? Philips was injured most of the year. We added Watt and get CJ and Philips back. Are you really trying to tell me you think the pass rush will be WORSE with the addition of Watt, Philips and Jones and the removal of only Reddick? Why would it be odd to think the rush will be good?

3. Again, you are picking bad stats to make your case. You are referring to total plays, including run plays, in relation to coverage. You are wrong anyway because Butler played 1,150 snaps and P2 played 1,096. Butler had to defend 613 pass plays last year. P2 had to defend 590.

This next bit is important.

According to PFR P2 gave up 662 yards on 79 targets. Butler gave up 873 on 127 targets. Considering Butler cannot help how often his team allow opponents to throw, Butler's stats are better.

Referencing totals without context is like saying the USA has the worse covid deaths in the world without accounting for population.

4. I like you man, I don't always agree with you but your posts are articulate and considered. But man it gets tiring when you are constantly negative about every single thing.

We could sign Aaron Donald and you would say "He's 30 now. Ram's obviously think he's in decline or they wouldn't let him go. We need to get younger. Meh signing".

 

[BritCard]

Dude, your levels of Kool-Aid are just insane. Watt got in one healthy season and struggled. He got triple teamed as the only option on the Texans D, but... come on here. He's played two healthy seasons since 2016. I adore the guy for the stuff he brings off the field, but to say that "age is irrelevant?" If that's true, why don't most players play into their 50s?

I don't think you're capable of saying anything negative about this team. Like we're on the cusp of a Super Bowl - instead of second to last in playoff appearances, dead last in drafting, and coached by a guy who hasn't had a winning season at any level of football since 2015.

He struggled to PFF's 7th ranked EDGE with an 85.4 grade with 81 run defense and 76.6 pass rush?

If you want to SIS data he was also their 7th ranked DE/DT.

 

[QuebecCard]

Dude, your levels of Kool-Aid are just insane. Watt got in one healthy season and struggled. He got triple teamed as the only option on the Texans D, but... come on here. He's played two healthy seasons since 2016. I adore the guy for the stuff he brings off the field, but to say that "age is irrelevant?" If that's true, why don't most players play into their 50s?

I don't think you're capable of saying anything negative about this team. Like we're on the cusp of a Super Bowl - instead of second to last in playoff appearances, dead last in drafting, and coached by a guy who hasn't had a winning season at any level of football since 2015.

I'm not anyone's Dude.

But... A D-End who requires a triple-team (your words) will struggle and is precisely the type of player I want on a team where assuredly he won't be given that attention with what else is available on our front seven.

That JJ is healthy now and that it was demonstrated over 16 games and 1000 snaps are the only relevant health report, I require.

And what part of 'you can play or you can't' did you not understand about my reference to age?

Perhaps I'm a bit more optimistic than some, but I'm hardly blind to the shortcomings.

You, however - see nothing but failings and shortcomings and wallow in the same poo every, every day!

I'll leave it to BritCard to once again tear apart your tenuous logic.

 

[az jam]

I never heard of "Football Outsiders". Could care less on their opinion.

 

[BritCard]

I'm not anyone's Dude.

But... A D-End who requires a triple-team (your words) will struggle and is precisely the type of player I want on a team where assuredly he won't be given that attention with what else is available on our front seven.

That JJ is healthy now and that it was demonstrated over 16 games and 1000 snaps are the only relevant health report, I require.

And what part of 'you can play or you can't' did you not understand about my reference to age?

Perhaps I'm a bit more optimistic than some, but I'm hardly blind to the shortcomings.

You, however - see nothing but failings and shortcomings and wallow in the same **** every, every day!

I'll leave it to BritCard to once again tear apart your tenuous logic.

Some people will argue with you in one thread that injury prone doesn't exist and that we should extend DJ Humphries based on one season without missing major time (They were right, I was wrong) and then a week later argue a signing is bad because of his injury history.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[kerouac9]

This is just plain wrong. You can't quote an article that uses cherry picked SIS stats to say how poor Butler was and not check what it says about P2 before you make that comment.

So according to the SIS stats

Comp % allowed

Butler - 60.4%
P2 - 62.7%

Yards per target

Butler - 7.5
P2 - 8.6

TD's allowed

Butler - 5
P2 - 6

PBU's / INT's

Butler - 10/4
P2 - 4/3

Tackles/Missed Tackle %

Butler - 100 - 9.3%
P2 - 64 - 12.1%


I especially like how they twisted this stat into their narrative.

"he failed to make the top 40 cornerbacks in either success rate or yards allowed per target in coverage, per Sports Info Solutions"

What they fail to mention is that the default value for SIS's CB leaderboard is points saved. How many point's did that defender stop the other team from scoring.

Butler was 5th last year from all DB's, including safeties. P2 was 69th.

The article is also gravely misleading on "Butler has been declining". If anything, at least statistically, he has improved even from his Patriot days. That article started with a narrative and picked stats to back up their bias.

PS - The same applies for the year before where he had a lower comp %, more PBU's, same INT's, and more points saved. Despite playing 1 less game.

I'll grant that Alford is a wildcard, but then I guess that is why they brought in Dennard. Either or both of these are surely better than Kirkpatrick.

Can you please link to this data set? I'm having a hard time locating it.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/27156/patrick-peterson

Patrick Peterson has S-T-R-U-G-G-L-E-D the past two years. Worst years in success rate since his rookie season.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/42534/malcolm-butler

Malcolm Butler scares no one. Second-highest target percentage in the NFL. Nearly one in four passes thrown against the Titans last season were targeted to exploit Butler.

None of this matters to the argument that Butler-Peterson-Murphy is a better secondary than Butler-?????????-Murphy.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

It's the height of hilarity that anyone would mention Alford's name. His name shouldn't be spoken unless he can get through at least 1 regular season game.

 

[BritCard]

Can you please link to this data set? I'm having a hard time locating it.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/27156/patrick-peterson

Patrick Peterson has S-T-R-U-G-G-L-E-D the past two years. Worst years in success rate since his rookie season.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/42534/malcolm-butler

Malcolm Butler scares no one. Second-highest target percentage in the NFL. Nearly one in four passes thrown against the Titans last season were targeted to exploit Butler.

None of this matters to the argument that Butler-Peterson-Murphy is a better secondary than Butler-?????????-Murphy.

https://www.sisdatahub.com/leaderboards/CB

I don't know where football outsiders gets their data but I'm not a fan of anything of theirs other than DVOA rankings.

It certainly doesn't tally with data from elsewhere. He's PFF's 15th ranked CB. SIS have him 5th in the CB leaderboard I just linked. Player Profiler have them ranked their 36th DB with a 21% target rate which is average (52nd).

There's certainly a wealth of data that says he's better than P2 has been so I will take it.

I don't really care if he's a superstar or not. I only care if he is better than what we had and the data says he is. The wildcard is whether he adapts to and fits the scheme Vance wants to play. We often look at individual ability when scheme fit and how well they gel with other starters is just as important.

 

[Solar7]

1. Nelson wasn't aimed at you. It was a general observation and a relevant comparison to someone we keep being told we should sign.

2. Why wouldn't we have a good pass rush? We were 4th in sacks last year with Reddick and Golden. 4th is elite right? Philips was injured most of the year. We added Watt and get CJ and Philips back. Are you really trying to tell me you think the pass rush will be WORSE with the addition of Watt, Philips and Jones and the removal of only Reddick? Why would it be odd to think the rush will be good?

3. Again, you are picking bad stats to make your case. You are referring to total plays, including run plays, in relation to coverage. You are wrong anyway because Butler played 1,150 snaps and P2 played 1,096. Butler had to defend 613 pass plays last year. P2 had to defend 590.

This next bit is important.

According to PFR P2 gave up 662 yards on 79 targets. Butler gave up 873 on 127 targets. Considering Butler cannot help how often his team allow opponents to throw, Butler's stats are better.

Referencing totals without context is like saying the USA has the worse covid deaths in the world without accounting for population.

4. I like you man, I don't always agree with you but your posts are articulate and considered. But man it gets tiring when you are constantly negative about every single thing.

We could sign Aaron Donald and you would say "He's 30 now. Ram's obviously think he's in decline or they wouldn't let him go. We need to get younger. Meh signing".

1. Cool, cool.

2. I'm not saying we won't. I'm not certain it's going to mask the guy's faults as well as others think.

3. I was using Football Outsiders snap counts at DB, so apologies if I'm off - since I don't have a subscription, I can't see the exact numbers for Butler, since he's outside of the top 5. Butler can control the amount of times they throw by actually having his guy covered. As @kerouac9 mentioned, no one is afraid of the guy and is constantly targeting him.

4. It's not intentionally negative. I like you too - it's always worth discussing some of this stuff. You won't see me trashing DHop, CJ, even guys with room to grow like Jalen Thompson and Isaiah Simmons. But I'm going to call out the repeated love of guys we'd trash if they weren't on our team, or the exaggeration of their talents. It's like Drake - Butler is being given this wild benefit of the doubt when having not shown he's very good in recent history. Call me next year if we have a new GM and head coach, and you'll probably see a lot more of me being cautiously optimistic instead of overwhelmingly negative.

I'm not anyone's Dude.

But... A D-End who requires a triple-team (your words) will struggle and is precisely the type of player I want on a team where assuredly he won't be given that attention with what else is available on our front seven.

That JJ is healthy now and that it was demonstrated over 16 games and 1000 snaps are the only relevant health report, I require.

And what part of 'you can play or you can't' did you not understand about my reference to age?

Perhaps I'm a bit more optimistic than some, but I'm hardly blind to the shortcomings.

You, however - see nothing but failings and shortcomings and wallow in the same **** every, every day!

I'll leave it to BritCard to once again tear apart your tenuous logic.

Apologies if calling you dude came off as offensive. That's just part of my lingo.

 

[BritCard]

1. Cool, cool.

2. I'm not saying we won't. I'm not certain it's going to mask the guy's faults as well as others think.

3. I was using Football Outsiders snap counts at DB, so apologies if I'm off - since I don't have a subscription, I can't see the exact numbers for Butler, since he's outside of the top 5. Butler can control the amount of times they throw by actually having his guy covered. As @kerouac9 mentioned, no one is afraid of the guy and is constantly targeting him.

4. It's not intentionally negative. I like you too - it's always worth discussing some of this stuff. You won't see me trashing DHop, CJ, even guys with room to grow like Jalen Thompson and Isaiah Simmons. But I'm going to call out the repeated love of guys we'd trash if they weren't on our team, or the exaggeration of their talents. It's like Drake - Butler is being given this wild benefit of the doubt when having not shown he's very good in recent history. Call me next year if we have a new GM and head coach, and you'll probably see a lot more of me being cautiously optimistic instead of overwhelmingly negative.


Apologies if calling you dude came off as offensive. That's just part of my lingo.

There are two issues here. Nobody is giving Butler any "wild benefit of the doubt". Only you (or at least a small group) think that he's not been good recently or never has been. Butler is a solid CB which is why the Titans gave him a £12m per year contract in 2019. All the data backs this up, whether it be PFF grades, SIS data or PFR stats. He's a solid CB1 who was cut because in a down cap year the Titans couldn't justify $12m.

Most importantly he's better than P2 has been the last 2 years. Better in coverage but also brings a mentality that's been sorely missing from the defense. If anyone has been getting "wild benefit of the doubt" it's P2 who has been complete trash the last 2 years.

It's as simple as this for me. Nobody was getting their knickers in a bunch over P2 starting last year, so why do it now over Butler?

 

[BigDavis75]

A lot of this conversation seems to be focused on how many times Butler was thrown at when he played with a worse pass rush than PP and is also *significantly* better in run support and tackling once a reception has been made.

 

[PACardsFan]

For one, I am, was and likely will be absolutely indifferent to Newsome.

I agree 100%. I don't understand the love for Newsome at all. The draft didn't fall well for the Cardinals as it pertained to the CB position, so Collins was the ONLY logical choice in my eyes. Not even the great teams are great across the board. Our secondary will not be pathetic, and our pass rush will help them.

 

[football karma]

I don't understand the love for Newsome at all.

good player, but literally never played a full college season due to a variety of leg issues

if you took Caleb Farley off your board due to injury risk, Newsome represents a similar risk

 

[BritCard]

good player, but literally never played a full college season due to a variety of leg issues

if you took Caleb Farley off your board due to injury risk, Newsome represents a similar risk

The main difference between the 2 is Farley has spine issues. That can be career ending. Newsome has been like Hump. A variety of leg muscle injuries that's likely just bad luck.

 

[DVontel]

I agree 100%. I don't understand the love for Newsome at all. The draft didn't fall well for the Cardinals as it pertained to the CB position, so Collins was the ONLY logical choice in my eyes. Not even the great teams are great across the board. Our secondary will not be pathetic, and our pass rush will help them.

Of course you don’t because he wasn’t who the Cardinals drafted.

 

[PACardsFan]

good player, but literally never played a full college season due to a variety of leg issues

if you took Caleb Farley off your board due to injury risk, Newsome represents a similar risk

Agree. Barring injury, Farley is absolutely legit. I’m not nearly as convinced that Newsome is.

 

[PACardsFan]

Of course you don’t because he wasn’t who the Cardinals drafted.

Disagree. Newsome would have been a huge reach at 16. I believe Collins brings great value at 16. We’ll have to wait & see.

 

[BritCard]

Agree. Barring injury, Farley is absolutely legit. I’m not nearly as convinced that Newsome is.

I think Farley is one of the rawest CB's I've seen so high in the draft and has a tonne of stuff left to learn. Pure physical traits which won't be nearly as much of an advantage in the NFL.

If Nuk can get him in coverage in game 1 I imagine he eats him alive.

 

[phillycard]

I'm still struggling to understand why we just didn't bring back Dre. He's no all pro, but he was certainly not the bane of our existence and the continuity alone to me was worth it. The Dennard thing is a real head scratcher. I mean, I certainly hope it works out, but seeing Dre visiting the Saints and garnering interest around the league makes me just wish we kept the guy.

 

[BritCard]

I'm still struggling to understand why we just didn't bring back Dre. He's no all pro, but he was certainly not the bane of our existence and the continuity alone to me was worth it. The Dennard thing is a real head scratcher. I mean, I certainly hope it works out, but seeing Dre visiting the Saints and garnering interest around the league makes me just wish we kept the guy.

I'm guessing he wants more than vet min after taking vet min last year.

 

[phillycard]

I'm guessing he wants more than vet min after taking vet min last year.

Gotcha BC. I wasn't up on his $$ situation. Makes more sense if that's the case.