FO thinks our cornerback situation is dire

football karma

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how the FO approached the Peterson thing is curious

never offered him a contract (confirmed) and (speculation) sounds like they never really were interested

that sounds like it wasnt a $ issue but something else

one thing i noticed last year: several big plays were given up by the D where P2 came off his assignment to jump a route, only to see the ball go to his guy. (admitted - anecdotes arent data)

curious if he was viewed as unreliable or if the message to the team was "do your job" and here was a high priced guy not always doing his job.

also: i found Keim's constant talk of "leadership" when talking about the FA guys they brought in to be sub-tweeting last years vets. maybe P2 was one of them

because at $8mm per, its not cap reasons why he isnt here, and, as noted above, even as his lower level of play, he is better than the Alford option
 

PACardsFan

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With the Titans just trading for Julio Jones, that may force the Cardinals to give Nelson a call.
 

Shane

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This is just plain wrong. You can't quote an article that uses cherry picked SIS stats to say how poor Butler was and not check what it says about P2 before you make that comment.

So according to the SIS stats

Comp % allowed

Butler - 60.4%
P2 - 62.7%

Yards per target

Butler - 7.5
P2 - 8.6

TD's allowed

Butler - 5
P2 - 6

PBU's / INT's

Butler - 10/4
P2 - 4/3

Tackles/Missed Tackle %

Butler - 100 - 9.3%
P2 - 64 - 12.1%


I especially like how they twisted this stat into their narrative.

"he failed to make the top 40 cornerbacks in either success rate or yards allowed per target in coverage, per Sports Info Solutions"

What they fail to mention is that the default value for SIS's CB leaderboard is points saved. How many point's did that defender stop the other team from scoring.

Butler was 5th last year from all DB's, including safeties. P2 was 69th.

The article is also gravely misleading on "Butler has been declining". If anything, at least statistically, he has improved even from his Patriot days. That article started with a narrative and picked stats to back up their bias.

PS - The same applies for the year before where he had a lower comp %, more PBU's, same INT's, and more points saved. Despite playing 1 less game.

I'll grant that Alford is a wildcard, but then I guess that is why they brought in Dennard. Either or both of these are surely better than Kirkpatrick.
Bump
 

Solar7

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I've been saying it all along, Butler's not very good. Week 1 will be especially telling, with two NFL stars and a team that saw him in practice for years up against him.
 

tnmike

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I've been saying it all along, Butler's not very good. Week 1 will be especially telling, with two NFL stars and a team that saw him in practice for years up against him.
Maybe Butler will feel appreciated against the Titans like Peterson says he is against the Cards ?
 

Cheesebeef

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I've been saying it all along, Butler's not very good. Week 1 will be especially telling, with two NFL stars and a team that saw him in practice for years up against him.

My issue with the above is you’ve maintained all along that Peterson was better. He just wasn’t. Theyre both mediocre CBs and interchangeable parts as far as I’m concerned.

which means I think our secondary is just as weak as last year whereas you somehow think it’s an abject disaster, bigger than last year. I don’t know how people really seeing it much worse OR much improved have an argument either way.
 
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Garthshort

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I've been saying it all along, Butler's not very good. Week 1 will be especially telling, with two NFL stars and a team that saw him in practice for years up against him.
Any chance that Butler saw the Titans in practice? I know the QBs often wear a red shirt in practice so I guess it's possible that CBs had to wear a blindfold.
 

DVontel

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I've been saying it all along, Butler's not very good. Week 1 will be especially telling, with two NFL stars and a team that saw him in practice for years up against him.
I mean, no one has been arguing that Butler is good. You just been acting like going from Peterson to Butler was some massive downgrade when in reality it’s a wash. Also, to be fair to Butler, he was behind an atrocious pass-rush while Peterson was behind a good one.

Makes it all the more frustrating to pass up on Newsome.
 

QuebecCard

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I mean, no one has been arguing that Butler is good. You just been acting like going from Peterson to Butler was some massive downgrade when in reality it’s a wash. Also, to be fair to Butler, he was behind an atrocious pass-rush while Peterson was behind a good one.

Makes it all the more frustrating to pass up on Newsome.

For one, I am, was and likely will be absolutely indifferent to Newsome.
 

Cheesebeef

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I mean, no one has been arguing that Butler is good. You just been acting like going from Peterson to Butler was some massive downgrade when in reality it’s a wash. Also, to be fair to Butler, he was behind an atrocious pass-rush while Peterson was behind a good one.

Makes it all the more frustrating to pass up on Newsome.

eh... we’ve seen plenty of Kool-Aiders say Butler is good.
 

Solar7

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My issue with the above is you’ve maintained all along that Peterson was better. He just wasn’t. Theyre both mediocre CBs and interchangeable parts as far as I’m concerned.

which means I think our secondary is just as weak as last year whereas you somehow think it’s an abject disaster, bigger than last year. I don’t know how people really seeing it much worse OR much improved have an argument either way.
I mean, no one has been arguing that Butler is good. You just been acting like going from Peterson to Butler was some massive downgrade when in reality it’s a wash. Also, to be fair to Butler, he was behind an atrocious pass-rush while Peterson was behind a good one.

Makes it all the more frustrating to pass up on Newsome.
I guess I'll clarify here - I think Peterson is marginally better, but still not great, even might be dubious to call him good. Completely removed from what I think we should have done with Peterson, I think Butler is just plainly pretty bad.

I've thought this about Butler for a long time, before there was any inkling he was going to be a Cardinal. I always thought that INT in the Super Bowl gave him a reputation his play couldn't cash in on, and wasn't surprised when the Pats let him move on. With age, it's only worse. I know we can argue up and down the board about how much more efficient he was than Peterson (something I'll argue isn't quite true given the much higher volume of targets which means his guys were often less covered), but at the end of the day, he gave up the most catches and yards of any CB in the league. That's going to be unacceptable for us.

Sure, we can all hope and pray the pass rush will save us, maybe it will. Also, my desire to keep Peterson was really just for a lack of better options. I thought we could franchise Peterson or keep him on a very short term deal, and draft a top rookie. Obviously the Cards didn't follow that playbook.

Any chance that Butler saw the Titans in practice? I know the QBs often wear a red shirt in practice so I guess it's possible that CBs had to wear a blindfold.
And tell the Cardinals what? That AJ Brown and Derrick Henry are really good? His tendencies are a much easier tell than what the Titans will do with the addition of Julio and a different offensive coordinator.
 

BritCard

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something I'll argue isn't quite true given the much higher volume of targets which means his guys were often less covered, but at the end of the day, he gave up the most catches and yards of any CB in the league. That's going to be unacceptable for us.

This just doesn't hold any water.

Butler has no control over if and how many times the opponents can pass the ball. ALL CB's on the Titan's had a high target rate because they were one of the most passed on teams in the league. It's just harder to see because he had 4 other guys start across from him. Butler has no control over the pass rush. It has nothing to do with his guys being more open he just had 613 routes to defend.

This is evidenced by his target rate. Despite those numbers he was only targeted on 21% of routes run against him (Steven Nelson also 21%). His average target separation was 1.36 yards.

Player Profiler gives Butler a coverage rating of +13.4. Good for 36th.

P2 got -13.9. Good for 67th.

Steven Nelson's average target separation was 1.51 yards BTW (and 1.42 the year before). So let's stop talking about Nelson.
 
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Garthshort

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I guess I'll clarify here - I think Peterson is marginally better, but still not great, even might be dubious to call him good. Completely removed from what I think we should have done with Peterson, I think Butler is just plainly pretty bad.

I've thought this about Butler for a long time, before there was any inkling he was going to be a Cardinal. I always thought that INT in the Super Bowl gave him a reputation his play couldn't cash in on, and wasn't surprised when the Pats let him move on. With age, it's only worse. I know we can argue up and down the board about how much more efficient he was than Peterson (something I'll argue isn't quite true given the much higher volume of targets which means his guys were often less covered), but at the end of the day, he gave up the most catches and yards of any CB in the league. That's going to be unacceptable for us.

Sure, we can all hope and pray the pass rush will save us, maybe it will. Also, my desire to keep Peterson was really just for a lack of better options. I thought we could franchise Peterson or keep him on a very short term deal, and draft a top rookie. Obviously the Cards didn't follow that playbook.


And tell the Cardinals what? That AJ Brown and Derrick Henry are really good? His tendencies are a much easier tell than what the Titans will do with the addition of Julio and a different offensive coordinator.
How do you know that his tendencies are a much easier tell? Butler must have learned something about the Titans' tendencies, while neither Brown or Henry have been exposed to Arizona's defense. I know that both are great players, but in no way do they have an intel advantage.
 

Solar7

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This just doesn't hold any water.

Butler has no control over if and how many times the opponents can pass the ball. ALL CB's on the Titan's had a high target rate because they were one of the most passed on teams in the league. It's just harder to see because he had 4 other guys start across from him. Butler has no control over the pass rush. It has nothing to do with his guys being more open he just had 613 routes to defend.

This is evidenced by his target rate. Despite those numbers he was only targeted on 21% of routes run against him (Steven Nelson also 21%). His average target separation was 1.36 yards.

Player Profiler gives Butler a coverage rating of +13.4. Good for 36th.

P2 got -13.9. Good for 67th.

Steven Nelson's average target separation was 1.51 yards BTW (and 1.42 the year before). So let's stop talking about Nelson.
Did I bring up Nelson here? It's weird to ask me to stop talking about him when I didn't.

I find it weird that some are just completely sold on us having an elite pass rush. We have CJ back, which should help, and Watt will help when healthy, but it's odd.

Also, Patrick Peterson played the 3rd most total snaps at DB in the league last year, and Butler 23rd most. This shouldn't turn into PP vs. Butler again, but Butler gave up a ton more on a lesser volume of plays. The dude is just not that good. He was more "efficient" with the ball in the air, but he's slow, old, and again - gave up the most yardage and receptions in the league last year.
 

Solar7

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How do you know that his tendencies are a much easier tell? Butler must have learned something about the Titans' tendencies, while neither Brown or Henry have been exposed to Arizona's defense. I know that both are great players, but in no way do they have an intel advantage.
Butler's job is to cover one guy. The Titans only need to beat the one guy. Butler hasn't played against Julio, and I'm sure he can give some advice, but it's a disadvantage. CB is an island position, the Titans offensive strengths aren't. Especially when Butler hasn't seen their offensive coordinator's scheme in practice.
 

QuebecCard

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Did I bring up Nelson here? It's weird to ask me to stop talking about him when I didn't.

I find it weird that some are just completely sold on us having an elite pass rush. We have CJ back, which should help, and Watt will help when healthy, but it's odd.

Also, Patrick Peterson played the 3rd most total snaps at DB in the league last year, and Butler 23rd most. This shouldn't turn into PP vs. Butler again, but Butler gave up a ton more on a lesser volume of plays. The dude is just not that good. He was more "efficient" with the ball in the air, but he's slow, old, and again - gave up the most yardage and receptions in the league last year.

It's 'odd' that you haven't noted that Watt is in fact healthy and played over a thousand snaps last season.

If you don't want it to turn into another Butler/PP argument stop revisiting it.

And age is irrelevant. You can play or you can't, The most recently available information says that Butler still can.
 

oaken1

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It’s simply addition by subtraction

Patrick Peterson is a dog.

The mans only concern was collecting paychecks.

We were fortunate that his reputation kept many teams from looking his way very often. Many many times we saw his man WIDE open.... like five or six yards of cushion wide open.... and the man can’t cover a crossing pattern to save his life.

but the worst part? His effort.... or noticeable lack there of
Dozens of times we saw a play go past pp and. The. Man. Just. Watched.
No attempt to make a play..... he didn’t even pursue... He. Just. WATCHED!
Any coach worth his salt would have benched him and started the UDFA from Lower Sac State

apathy. That’s what PP brought to this defense

Butler, Murphy, and the sixth round rookie are going to be a better group than last years group simply because we don’t have young guys taking their lead from a guy who doesn’t care and doesn’t try

Peterson’s numbers wouldn’t be as good as they are if we ever had a legit #2 .... but why would a qb even risk throwing his way when there’s a scrub on the other side he can abuse all game long with less risk

I’m glad he’s gone. The only negative is that keim didn’t have the balls to trade him three years ago when we maybe could have gotten a second for him
 

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