Jordan Hicks given permission by team to seek trade

BigRedRage

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Collins is on a steeper learning curve at the position because Simmons has, ya know, played pro ball at the exact position. Simmons has played ILBer at a small school and, arguably, didn't even play there in high school (yinz let me know when yinz figure that out). Simmons should be an incredible player for our defense this year. It's foolhardy to "expect" Collins to just walk right into the starting spot and outperform a 2nd-year monster athlete like Simmons. If that's your expectation, you have overinflated expectations.

Now watch everything unfold in opposite land lol


this is what I think of with comments about how collins should outplay simmons. simmons has been here a year and knows a lot more about the system and is super talented, not some chump. I hope they both crush it but either guy could be better than the other guy and thats okay. We cannot predict what will happen but the odds are that simmons should have a big jump and collins should be swimming a bit at first.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I feel like this is a disservice to Ertz on the injury front.

He's played 43 games the last 3 years. The 11 he played last year is by far his least and his only season with any injury concern.

I don't Ertz contract but he's by far the best TE option for this team and I'd be much happier with him.
Note I didn’t call him “injury prone” I said “injured” and that’s bc he was on my fantasy team and sucked all year, even while playing, bc he was hobbled.
 

Stout

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Simmons played pro ball at the exact position Collins has, sure. Doesn't exactly mean he was solid there(he wasn't). Collins played ILB at a D1 school. Against other D1 athletes. I would not call D1 schools "small schools". Collins didn't play there in HS(which I misread), but he played there a lot more than Simmons coming out which was also due to Simmons rotating damn near every other position. I would expect him to understand the nuance of the position more than even a current Simmons.

Why Simmons should be an incredible player this year? Based off of what? He didn't shine much last year outside of a few flashes. I like how you said "athlete" and not player relating to Simmons, because that's what Simmons is and probably will be for a little bit. An athlete more than a player.

My expectations aren't that high for Collins, they're just that low for Simmons.

We are simply not going to agree.

this is what I think of with comments about how collins should outplay simmons. simmons has been here a year and knows a lot more about the system and is super talented, not some chump. I hope they both crush it but either guy could be better than the other guy and thats okay. We cannot predict what will happen but the odds are that simmons should have a big jump and collins should be swimming a bit at first.

Well said.
 

Goldfield

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Keim is from my neck of the woods here in PA, and I know some of his old buddies. If Keim could have strangled Joseph last year for not playing Simmons, he WOULD have. Bottom line, you don’t draft a player at 8, and sit him on the bench until midseason. Especially when your D is below average to begin with.
Campbell plays pretty good the first half of the season. Simmons was not a pure LB in college. Add a COVID training camp. I didn’t expect him to play right away.
 

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Note I didn’t call him “injury prone” I said “injured” and that’s bc he was on my fantasy team and sucked all year, even while playing, bc he was hobbled.

Just feels like thats been a bit of a trend from others. When they talk about Ertz it's as if he 35 and has a deep injury history.

I think Ertz is still a top 6 TE in the league. I'm not writing him off because of a down season where he played limited games while carrying an injury in that garbage offense.
 

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this is what I think of with comments about how collins should outplay simmons. simmons has been here a year and knows a lot more about the system and is super talented, not some chump. I hope they both crush it but either guy could be better than the other guy and thats okay. We cannot predict what will happen but the odds are that simmons should have a big jump and collins should be swimming a bit at first.

It's a fair comment. I do see it a little differently though.

The problem for me is that Simmons is still learning to play ILB. Collins already know's how to play ILB. Simmons has a jump on the scheme, but it's like trying to load Pong on a toaster. Collins instincts are already there that Simmons doesn't have due to many less snaps at that position.

Football Outsiders summed it up well for me in their article on Collins.

"A common issue with late linebacker converts such as Collins is that they often struggle to adjust to the confines of playing in the box. At linebacker, a player has to see and react to a ton of stimuli with limited vision and space to work with. It is not like playing safety, where a player gets to see things from depth and play from more advantageous angles. In turn, most desirable late-conversion linebacker prospects (or NFL players) have to be exceptionally fast for the position and rely on their speed to fix their other issues. That is far from the case with Collins."

Everyone should read this article.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/futures/2021/futures-tulsa-lb-zaven-collins

I started a thread last year arguing how Simmons was a safety, not a linebacker for exactly the reasons covered in this article. When watching Simmon's he had none (really none at all) of the instincts to play ILB in the box. He looked great from safety with more space and time to see what's happening and with his speed and better angles from safety he could then close down quickly.

When I watched Collins it wasn't his size and athleticism that stood out for me, although they are impressive, it was his instincts and mental processing. He has all the instincts for the position that Simmons was missing last year and I still think will be missing this year considering so few live reps at the position. Of the 337 snaps he played last year, only around 225 were at ILB.

For me, this is a much bigger part of being a good ILB than how fast your 40 times is. It's what makes Darius Leonard who runs 4.73 and has a below average athletic profile such a good LB.

If I had to put money on who had the better year this year I'd put it on Collins. It could still be Simmons, but it really depends how much work he's putting in right now into learning the position and improving his instinct. And it may well be the Collins pick spurs him on, with him not wanting the new boy to come in and outperform him.
 

DVontel

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Just feels like thats been a bit of a trend from others. When they talk about Ertz it's as if he 35 and has a deep injury history.

I think Ertz is still a top 6 TE in the league. I'm not writing him off because of a down season where he played limited games while carrying an injury in that garbage offense.
Kittle
Kelce
Waller
Hockenson
Andrews
Fant
Tonyan

He’s not better than any of these guys anymore.

Then there’s Jonnu arguably.

I’m not even sure if Ertz is even the best TE on his own team anymore.

Then there’s Pitts who’s projected to come in take over the league.
 
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Kittle
Kelce
Waller
Hockenson
Andrews
Fant
Tonyan

He’s not better than any of these guys anymore.

Then there’s Jonnu arguably.

I’m not even sure if Ertz is even the best TE on his own team anymore.

Then there’s Pitts who’s projected to come in take over the league.

Well sure, if you consider one year with the ghost of Carson Wentz while playing injured to be his level. I don't.

I think he's still the 1163 and 916 guy from the two previous years and thus only behind Kelce, Kittle and Waller for sure and you can argue where he sits in the next 3. But certainly not behind Jonnu Smith, Tonyan or Fant.

Ertz had more yards per game than Smith last year playing injured.
 

DVontel

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Well sure, if you consider one year with the ghost of Carson Wentz while playing injured to be his level. I don't.

I think he's still the 1163 and 916 guy from the two previous years and thus only behind Kelce, Kittle and Waller for sure and you can argue where he sits in the next 3. But certainly not behind Jonnu Smith, Tonyan or Fant.

Ertz had more yards per game than Smith last year playing injured.
Why do you just complete remove players’ most recent play just because it was bad? lol, you did it with Casey Hayward, now you’re doing it with Ertz. I’m confident that’s where they’re play is trending instead of it just being a “fluke”.


Smith was clearly more effective in the end zone than Ertz was last year while Fant & Tonyan also out produced him by a good amount last year.
 

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Why do you just complete remove players’ most recent play just because it was bad? lol, you did it with Casey Hayward, now you’re doing it with Ertz. I’m confident that’s where they’re play is trending instead of it just being a “fluke”.

Smith was clearly more effective in the end zone than Ertz was last year while Fant & Tonyan also out produced him by a good amount last year.

Good question for all and one could also ask why posters harp on injury history when a player has just survived a 16 game season with over a thousand snaps and is clear to play the next? As a lurker, I recall post-after-post about DJ's earlier injuries when they were considering his extension and lo-and-behold he's now started 32 straight. If we can argue recent play as a trend can't we say the same about injury history?
 

Russ Smith

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Late to the party but I like Ertz, always have. The rumor has been the Colts because of Wentz but we make sense too. We need a TE who can catch the ball, his wife grew up in Arizona. And the timing makes sense the Eagles save on cap hit if they trade him after June 1st. That would give us a couple of weeks to see Collins in rookie camp and decide is he likely to be good enough to allow us to move Hicks? Assuming he is, remember Vallejo too can play ILB, then we have our half of the trade and the Eagles will have had another 2 weeks to see if they can do better from the Colts or someone else.

If the ankle is healed you're getting a almost 31 year old with great hands, he may not be as good as he used to be but I certainly don't think last year was totally his fault, the injury and Wentz completely falling apart due to a horrible OL. Pederson was pretty clear about it we were trying to go other places, throwing the ball deeper, so there were less chances for Ertz. Because of the protection issues they had to keep an extra blocker in more often, which at times was Ertz, so his stats were way down.

It's certainly worth kicking the tires, or ankle.
 

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Why do you just complete remove players’ most recent play just because it was bad? lol, you did it with Casey Hayward, now you’re doing it with Ertz. I’m confident that’s where they’re play is trending instead of it just being a “fluke”.


Smith was clearly more effective in the end zone than Ertz was last year while Fant & Tonyan also out produced him by a good amount last year.

You can't have it both ways.

If a guy has had 7 years of bad play and then one good year do you say "This guy is great now. This one year of good play wipes out all that previous bad"? No, you don't.

Same goes with injury history. Only ever seems to work one way.

I'm more confident that at 30 his form last year was down to first being pissed off with the Eagles. Eagles broke off contract talks before the season and Ertz publicly called them out. Then he had a niggling injury, and he was in the 28th ranked passing offense.

They also had so many injuries at WR that before Ertz was injured he was literally the only threat on offense so drew a bunch of double coverage.

This is also a position where guys play well into their 30's and stay at a high level. Kelce is 32 when the season starts. Gronk is 32. Cook is 34. Olsen played at a high level until 35. Jason Witton. Antonio Gates.

Ertz isn't 31 until November. He was a Pro Bowler 3 years straight before last season. Even Ertz at 80% of what he was would be the best TE this team has ever had. Certainly in recent history.
 

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