Suns @ Warriors Tuesday game thread 5-11-2021

[Finito]

That’s not a bad stretch. That’s falling off a damn cliff.

yup that’s effort

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Lack of defense is a big part of the problem.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Wow I knew the defense had slipped but I hadn’t realized it completely fell apart and continued to ooze past mediocrity to just flat out bad.

 

[Finito]

Wow I knew the defense had slipped but I hadn’t realized it completely fell apart and continued to ooze past mediocrity to just flat out bad.

you keep trying to blame 1 guy but this a complete team meltdown from coaching on down. You can’t see that?

these guys need a closed door meeting. Paul’s this big time MVP leader type ok now show me.

Booker is supposed to be your star last night he acted like a 12 year old and let a scrub get in his head. this to me is a much bigger issue than Ayton. Ayton isn’t a star but Booker is expected to be one and he just can’t keep doing this

Bridges and Crowder are here for defense and that just ain’t happening

Super Dario? Anyone seen this guy lately?

Ayton looks tired and out of shape how that happens at this stage of the season is beyond me.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

you keep trying to blame 1 guy but this a complete team meltdown from coaching on down. You can’t see that?

these guys need a closed door meeting. Paul’s this big time MVP leader type ok now show me.

Booker is supposed to be your star last night he acted like a 12 year old and let a scrub get in his head. this to me is a much bigger issue than Ayton. Ayton isn’t a star but Booker is expected to be one and he just can’t keep doing this

Bridges and Crowder are here for defense and that just ain’t happening

Super Dario? Anyone seen this guy lately?

Ayton looks tired and out of shape how that happens at this stage of the season is beyond me.

I tend to rail about Ayton bc he’s the biggest disappointment this franchise has ever had. It doesn’t mean I’m blaming it all on him. A major difference, and a primary reason I focus on him is because with him it’s about effort and timidity - things within his control. Most others it’s just failure of one sort or another. Like bridges not hitting threes. That’s not a lack of effort. Book going fifth grader at time mentally is more similar to Ayton’s disappearing acts but at least he brings something else to the table with his scoring. Ayton disappears altogether.

as for not being a star you say that regularly like it’s an excuse. Like he’s somehow physically incapable of it. We’ve seen him capable of stardom in very brief stretches. So for him not to be a star is on him. Cripes, every suns commentator sees it and criticizes him for it all the time.

 

[Dr dumas]

you keep trying to blame 1 guy but this a complete team meltdown from coaching on down. You can’t see that?

these guys need a closed door meeting. Paul’s this big time MVP leader type ok now show me.

Booker is supposed to be your star last night he acted like a 12 year old and let a scrub get in his head. this to me is a much bigger issue than Ayton. Ayton isn’t a star but Booker is expected to be one and he just can’t keep doing this

Bridges and Crowder are here for defense and that just ain’t happening

Super Dario? Anyone seen this guy lately?

Ayton looks tired and out of shape how that happens at this stage of the season is beyond me.

I don’t see Ayton as being out of shape. I see pure lack of desire in most games. No desire to seal off defenders much smaller. No desire to roll hard to the rim after picks. We are back to where Ayton shows up for one game out of four.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don’t see Ayton as being out of shape. I see pure lack of desire in most games. No desire to seal off defenders much smaller. No desire to roll hard to the rim after picks. We are back to where Ayton shows up for one game out of four.

if Ayton is out of shape that’s just as much an indictment on him as anything else. He’s only 22 years old.

 

[Dr dumas]

if Ayton is out of shape that’s just as much an indictment on him as anything else. He’s only 22 years old.

I’m having a really hard time believing he’s out of shape at this point in the season and especially with all the back to backs. He’s also not coming off of an injury.

But yes I do agree with you if in fact he was out of shape, that’s completely on him.

 

[Finito]

I tend to rail about Ayton bc he’s the biggest disappointment this franchise has ever had. It doesn’t mean I’m blaming it all on him. A major difference, and a primary reason I focus on him is because with him it’s about effort and timidity - things within his control. Most others it’s just failure of one sort or another. Like bridges not hitting threes. That’s not a lack of effort. Book going fifth grader at time mentally is more similar to Ayton’s disappearing acts but at least he brings something else to the table with his scoring. Ayton disappears altogether.

as for not being a star you say that regularly like it’s an excuse. Like he’s somehow physically incapable of it. We’ve seen him capable of stardom in very brief stretches. So for him not to be a star is on him. Cripes, every suns commentator sees it and criticizes him for it all the time.

I don’t know if I’d call him the biggest disappoint in franchise history. Is he a star no? is a bum? No

all the crying in the world ain’t going to change who he is those raised expectations are your fault. I don’t look at Ayton and see leader I don’t care what he should be or could be I care what he is. That’s all pie in the sky would of should of stuff. You keep looking for him to be something he’s not and that’s just setting your self up for disappointment. He’s a good role player that’s it.

and no Booker and Ayton aren’t on the same level when it comes to being accountable. Booker is our star he is our leader he is our home grown all star. All the stuff you complain about Ayton for is what you need to complain about Booker for.

your star can’t go “fifth grader” at anytime. This is a star driven league your not going to go as far as Ayton takes you he’s a role player your going to go as far as Booker takes you. Steph doesnt have mental breakdowns, lebron doesn’t that’s the difference. So it’s not well at least he scores and excuses for him because you happen to like him or for whatever reason. This team will only go as far as Booker will take it on the court and in the locker room he’s the leader he’s the star.

like I said This is a complete team meltdown TEAM and when you fail you don’t fail from the middle you fail from the top down. If my guys fail it’s on me. I blame me I don’t point fingers

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don’t know if I’d call him the biggest disappoint in franchise history. Is he a star no? is a bum? No

all the crying in the world ain’t going to change who he is those raised expectations are your fault. I don’t look at Ayton and see leader I don’t care what he should be or could be I care what he is. That’s all pie in the sky would of should of stuff. You keep looking for him to be something he’s not and that’s just setting your self up for disappointment. He’s a good role player that’s it.

and no Booker and Ayton aren’t on the same level when it comes to being accountable. Booker is our star he is our leader he is our home grown all star. All the stuff you complain about Ayton for is what you need to complain about Booker for.

your star can’t go “fifth grader” at anytime. This is a star driven league your not going to go as far as Ayton takes you he’s a role player your going to go as far as Booker takes you. Steph doesnt have mental breakdowns, lebron doesn’t that’s the difference. So it’s not well at least he scores and excuses for him because you happen to like him or for whatever reason. This team will only go as far as Booker will take it on the court and in the locker room he’s the leader he’s the star.

like I said This is a complete team meltdown TEAM and when you fail you don’t fail from the middle you fail from the top down. If my guys fail it’s on me. I blame me I don’t point fingers

Wrong. On so many points. This team, with bad Ayton or no Ayton, is below average. With full effort from DA this team is top 5. When Ayton plays defense he makes all our defenders better and they don't have to work as hard either. And when he plays aggressively on offense, his teammates don't see as many doubles and triples.

And stars have meltdowns and stars act like spoiled children sometimes. We've seen stars refuse to shoot for entire games because they are pissed at teammates or the coach or the organization. We've seen stars chase after fans and we've seen stars scream and yell at referees and we've seen stars refuse to enter the game late.

Ayton shut it down about a week before the all star game. Then, we went on a tough road trip and he turned it on for a few of those games but then we came home and he shut it down again. No effort is no effort. Call him a role player if you want but we have probably 15 wins that we wouldn't have without him. And we have a dozen losses that wouldn't have happened if he'd played with focus and intensity.

 

[Finito]

Wrong. On so many points. This team, with bad Ayton or no Ayton, is below average. With full effort from DA this team is top 5. When Ayton plays defense he makes all our defenders better and they don't have to work as hard either. And when he plays aggressively on offense, his teammates don't see as many doubles and triples.

And stars have meltdowns and stars act like spoiled children sometimes. We've seen stars refuse to shoot for entire games because they are pissed at teammates or the coach or the organization. We've seen stars chase after fans and we've seen stars scream and yell at referees and we've seen stars refuse to enter the game late.

Ayton shut it down about a week before the all star game. Then, we went on a tough road trip and he turned it on for a few of those games but then we came home and he shut it down again. No effort is no effort. Call him a role player if you want but we have probably 15 wins that we wouldn't have without him. And we have a dozen losses that wouldn't have happened if he'd played with focus and intensity.

so this team revolves around Ayton not Booker?

welp cancel Christmas.

I don’t wanna hear crying when we go home in round 1 cause you should expect it then

 

[Chaplin]

Wrong. On so many points. This team, with bad Ayton or no Ayton, is below average. With full effort from DA this team is top 5. When Ayton plays defense he makes all our defenders better and they don't have to work as hard either. And when he plays aggressively on offense, his teammates don't see as many doubles and triples.

And stars have meltdowns and stars act like spoiled children sometimes. We've seen stars refuse to shoot for entire games because they are pissed at teammates or the coach or the organization. We've seen stars chase after fans and we've seen stars scream and yell at referees and we've seen stars refuse to enter the game late.

Ayton shut it down about a week before the all star game. Then, we went on a tough road trip and he turned it on for a few of those games but then we came home and he shut it down again. No effort is no effort. Call him a role player if you want but we have probably 15 wins that we wouldn't have without him. And we have a dozen losses that wouldn't have happened if he'd played with focus and intensity.

Just stop with the hyperbole. We’ve won 40 games, are you saying Ayton was good in all 40? GUARANTEED he was not. So stop with the below average garbage.

We are not as good a team when he doesn’t play well, but we are not below average. I’d even venture to say Ayton was “good” in no more than half our wins. I’d say that shows us as better than average on the whole. We may not be able to do anything in the playoffs but we have earned the spot we are in, like it or not.

 

[AzStevenCal]

so this team revolves around Ayton not Booker?

welp cancel Christmas.

I don’t wanna hear crying when we go home in round 1 cause you should expect it then

If I could have Booker on his good nights or Ayton on his good nights, I'd choose Ayton, he impacts the game in so many ways. And keep in mind, I'm a huge Booker fan. DA may not be the most disappointing player we've ever had but for me, he's easily the most frustrating.

And I have no idea how you get from where we were in the conversation to your last sentence. Seriously, what connection are you trying to draw? I've been talking about this team being overrated for more than 2 months now.

We are capable of beating any healthy team other than LAL or Brooklyn but we are easily capable of losing in the first round to any other team in the playoffs, including the play-in teams. Without active Ayton, we're roughly the Sacramento Kings. With DA fully engaged, we're roughly the Clippers. That's a huge swing and right now, I have no idea which DA we'll see in the postseason.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Just stop with the hyperbole. We’ve won 40 games, are you saying Ayton was good in all 40? GUARANTEED he was not. So stop with the below average garbage.

We are not as good a team when he doesn’t play well, but we are not below average. I’d even venture to say Ayton was “good” in no more than half our wins. I’d say that shows us as better than average on the whole. We may not be able to do anything in the playoffs but we have earned the spot we are in, like it or not.

Maybe you need to learn what hyperbole actually means? Show me where I engaged in gross exaggeration? I presented my honest appraisal of this team, I did not blow things out of proportion to prove a point.

Ayton doesn't have to be good for us to be above average. He ranges from incredible to invisible. But as long as he's giving us good effort on defense, we range from above average to great. When he's giving us very little effort, yes, we ARE a below average team IMO.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If I could have Booker on his good nights or Ayton on his good nights, I'd choose Ayton, he impacts the game in so many ways. And keep in mind, I'm a huge Booker fan. DA may not be the most disappointing player we've ever had but for me, he's easily the most frustrating.

And I have no idea how you get from where we were in the conversation to your last sentence. Seriously, what connection are you trying to draw? I've been talking about this team being overrated for more than 2 months now.

We are capable of beating any healthy team other than LAL or Brooklyn but we are easily capable of losing in the first round to any other team in the playoffs, including the play-in teams. Without active Ayton, we're roughly the Sacramento Kings. With DA fully engaged, we're roughly the Clippers. That's a huge swing and right now, I have no idea which DA we'll see in the postseason.

The bottom line is we just shouldn’t be having this discussion about him in his third season. Just completely no showing on either end, repeatedly down the stretch of a playoff race is pathetic for someone with his natural gifts. No less a guy the team hoped to be able to build around, which obviously is out of the question at this point.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don’t know if I’d call him the biggest disappoint in franchise history. Is he a star no? is a bum? No

all the crying in the world ain’t going to change who he is those raised expectations are your fault. I don’t look at Ayton and see leader I don’t care what he should be or could be I care what he is. That’s all pie in the sky would of should of stuff. You keep looking for him to be something he’s not and that’s just setting your self up for disappointment. He’s a good role player that’s it.

and no Booker and Ayton aren’t on the same level when it comes to being accountable. Booker is our star he is our leader he is our home grown all star. All the stuff you complain about Ayton for is what you need to complain about Booker for.

your star can’t go “fifth grader” at anytime. This is a star driven league your not going to go as far as Ayton takes you he’s a role player your going to go as far as Booker takes you. Steph doesnt have mental breakdowns, lebron doesn’t that’s the difference. So it’s not well at least he scores and excuses for him because you happen to like him or for whatever reason. This team will only go as far as Booker will take it on the court and in the locker room he’s the leader he’s the star.

like I said This is a complete team meltdown TEAM and when you fail you don’t fail from the middle you fail from the top down. If my guys fail it’s on me. I blame me I don’t point fingers

Lol, you want to give Ayton a pass because he’s not a star - but he’s only not a star bc he won’t exert the effort necessary to be a star. We know that bc we’ve seen small stretches of his ability to be a star.

but then you want to hold book to the standard of Lebron and steph. Multiple time MVPs, champions, finals MVPs whereas book literally does not have the physical wherewithal to be the top 5% superstar that they are. And book does exert effort - far more than Ayton. Now all that to say I don’t give him a pass for his mental meltdowns. I’m usually yelling at him during the game when he goes mental for spurts. But he’s not this physically gifted hulking player who just goes MIA like Ayton does.

your steadfast refusal to hold Ayton accountable is so weird to me.

 

[Chaplin]

Maybe you need to learn what hyperbole actually means? Show me where I engaged in gross exaggeration? I presented my honest appraisal of this team, I did not blow things out of proportion to prove a point.

Ayton doesn't have to be good for us to be above average. He ranges from incredible to invisible. But as long as he's giving us good effort on defense, we range from above average to great. When he's giving us very little effort, yes, we ARE a below average team IMO.

Calling the team below average when Ayton doesn't play well is DEFINITELY exaggeration. Come on. You actually compare us to the Sacramento Kings for gods sake.

Ayton doesn't play well MOST OF THE TIME. And we still have 40 wins.

 

[Finito]

Lol, you want to give Ayton a pass because he’s not a star - but he’s only not a star bc he won’t exert the effort necessary to be a star. We know that bc we’ve seen small stretches of his ability to be a star.

but then you want to hold book to the standard of Lebron and steph. Multiple time MVPs, champions, finals MVPs whereas book literally does not have the physical wherewithal to be the top 5% superstar that they are. And book does exert effort - far more than Ayton. Now all that to say I don’t give him a pass for his mental meltdowns. I’m usually yelling at him during the game when he goes mental for spurts. But he’s not this physically gifted hulking player who just goes MIA like Ayton does.

your steadfast refusal to hold Ayton accountable is so weird to me.

This is where your not understanding me

I’m not giving him a pass I know what he is.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The bottom line is we just shouldn’t be having this discussion about him in his third season. Just completely no showing on either end, repeatedly down the stretch of a playoff race is pathetic for someone with his natural gifts. No less a guy the team hoped to be able to build around, which obviously is out of the question at this point.

I would hate to have to make the decision on Ayton. Besides being a nice guy and still very young, IMO only health and effort will keep him from becoming a top 3 player in this league. So do you let him walk or give him away for close to nothing or do you risk 5 years or so of your future that he'll mature?

I could easily see us trading him for a future pick or two, losing Paul to an opt-out and parting ways with Booker (trade or eventually as a free agent). That's not a pretty future but if we can't turn Ayton into MR Dependable, we're going nowhere long term anyway.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This is where your not understanding me

I’m not giving him a pass I know what he is.

But accepting that he won’t give effort is giving him a pass. It’s entirely within his control. The same as bookers mental meltdowns. Why don’t you just know who book is and give him a pass too?

note, I’m no book fanboy. I hold them both accountable. It’s just that Ayton’s failures are vastly more common, auspicious, and evidence a lack of competitive spirit whereas books read their heads less frequently and if anything evidence a fiery competitiveness that needs be better focused. I know of the two fact sets which I prefer.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This is where your not understanding me

I’m not giving him a pass I know what he is.

Okay. But why bang on Book so much then? He is what he is. A star, not a superstar. But you keep throwing names like LeBron and Steph around.

Book is not those guys. Some of us have been saying for years that he will never be those guys (and usually getting crushed for it), mostly because he doesn’t have their natural gifts and he doesn’t have their basketball IQ.

Dude is the SG equivalent of Tom Chambers, IMO. Gifted but not elite scorer. Doesn’t bring all that much to the table otherwise.

You’re banging on us for wanting Ayton to be more than he is, but aren’t you doing the same thing for Booker?

 

[Cheesebeef]

But accepting that he won’t give effort is giving him a pass. It’s entirely within his control. The same as bookers mental meltdowns. Why don’t you just know who book is and give him a pass too?

note, I’m no book fanboy. I hold them both accountable. It’s just that Ayton’s failures are vastly more common, auspicious, and evidence a lack of competitive spirit whereas books read their heads less frequently and if anything evidence a fiery competitiveness that needs be better focused. I know of the two fact sets which I prefer.

mostly borg.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I would hate to have to make the decision on Ayton. Besides being a nice guy and still very young, IMO only health and effort will keep him from becoming a top 3 player in this league. So do you let him walk or give him away for close to nothing or do you risk 5 years or so of your future that he'll mature?

I could easily see us trading him for a future pick or two, losing Paul to an opt-out and parting ways with Booker (trade or eventually as a free agent). That's not a pretty future but if we can't turn Ayton into MR Dependable, we're going nowhere long term anyway.

I think you don’t have a choice with Ayton. Once you draft him you’re kind of bound to him. The alternatives don’t bring you the necessary upside. Letting him walk doesn’t create a massive amount of cap space that would allow you to replace him with a key piece. And trading him likely nets you pennies on his “potential” dollar, so-to-speak. And those pennies likely end up with more cam Johnson’s and stix. Which means likely mediocrity-to-7 seed limbo. You almost have to bet on Ayton. The downside is similar mediocrity-to-7 seed (post Paul departure if not replaced with player of similar stature), while the upside for more hopefully still exists (even if the hope is slim)

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

mostly borg.

Yup

 

[Cheesebeef]

I would hate to have to make the decision on Ayton. Besides being a nice guy and still very young, IMO only health and effort will keep him from becoming a top 3 player in this league. So do you let him walk or give him away for close to nothing or do you risk 5 years or so of your future that he'll mature?

I could easily see us trading him for a future pick or two, losing Paul to an opt-out and parting ways with Booker (trade or eventually as a free agent). That's not a pretty future but if we can't turn Ayton into MR Dependable, we're going nowhere long term anyway.

i still say we try to trade Ayton and pieces for Towns and just try to outscore everyone. Go out and get a good PF to put next to Towns and just try to Brooklyn Nets next year where our offense is just so overwhelming that it has a punchers chance to win it.

 

[Finito]

i still say we try to trade Ayton and pieces for Towns and just try to outscore everyone. Go out and get a good PF to put next to Towns and just try to Brooklyn Nets next year where our offense is just so overwhelming that it has a punchers chance to win it.

for this whole conversation you better make no mistake I’m 100% for trading him if it can bring you back KAT or Vucevic. I was driving that bus all season before the deadline.