Mason Cole traded for 6th rounder

[BACH]

This is Actually Where I Think Keim is best.

His draft record is quite bad - sure.

But he Doesn’t manage scared. I respect that.

Cole is 3rd round Pick, Who isn’t Living up to his draftstatus. Galliard as an undrafted Pick is equally Good.

No hesitation. Get the 6th rounder, Maximize Value and face more personal criticism for yet another failed Pick.

9/10 GMs would not have done this in an effort to cling on to their job

 

[Chopper0080]

I do like that Keim waited until there was only one year left on the deal to trade him. Previous players have had years left and then latched onto other teams.

And yes, Keim draft record is the reason we have had the roster and cap issues we have had. Three coaches and three schemes in three years has not helped it in any way either.

 

[football karma]

Three coaches and three schemes in three years has not helped it in any way either.

yes

scheme continuity is an underrated aspect of drafting

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This is Actually Where I Think Keim is best.

His draft record is quite bad - sure.

But he Doesn’t manage scared. I respect that.

Cole is 3rd round Pick, Who isn’t Living up to his draftstatus. Galliard as an undrafted Pick is equally Good.

No hesitation. Get the 6th rounder, Maximize Value and face more personal criticism for yet another failed Pick.

9/10 GMs would not have done this in an effort to cling on to their job

Galloped wasn’t undrafted.

 

[bankybruce]

Galloped wasn’t undrafted.

Correct, 6th rounder! So we got back what we paid for him in trading Cole!

 

[WisconsinCard]

3rd rounder for a 6th rounder. That's like 50% depreciation in 3 years, same as buying a brand new Audi, Infiniti, BMW, Volvo, or Mercedes.

Plus 32 starts is like 50000 miles on the car. So I think that's a pretty good return.

 

[dscher]

from the same article -- (which is awesome btw):

"ARE SOME TEAMS BETTER AT EVALUATING COLLEGE PLAYERS?
The analysis we performed is purely descriptive — it explains what happened. The next questions pose themselves naturally: Does this mean Jason Licht and his scouts are superior talent evaluators? What about Chris Ballard or Mickey Loomis?

The answer to these questions is probably no.


Money Quote from the linked: " the overall point is that the teams' rankings can be explained entirely by chance. ""


this isnt defending Keim -- its pointing out that draft is highly random and the GMs who did well on this, fared poorly when looking at other stretches of their tenure

there is more randomness to the draft than GMs want to admit (because they wouldnt be paid millions for it)

This reminds me of the movie moneyball where billy beane is in the room trying to explain the nuances of the new style of baseball with all the old school scouts that just don't understand how to evaluate the new age of players coming out. We have these guys, minus the billy beane.

 

[BritCard]

from the same article -- (which is awesome btw):

"ARE SOME TEAMS BETTER AT EVALUATING COLLEGE PLAYERS?
The analysis we performed is purely descriptive — it explains what happened. The next questions pose themselves naturally: Does this mean Jason Licht and his scouts are superior talent evaluators? What about Chris Ballard or Mickey Loomis?

The answer to these questions is probably no.


Money Quote from the linked: " the overall point is that the teams' rankings can be explained entirely by chance. ""


this isnt defending Keim -- its pointing out that draft is highly random and the GMs who did well on this, fared poorly when looking at other stretches of their tenure

there is more randomness to the draft than GMs want to admit (because they wouldnt be paid millions for it)

I think a lot of fans completely discount that a draft pick didn't work out because their team drafted him. It's easy to assume the guy just is what he is and it was all down to scouting and the GM.

For example, there are 31 alternate universes where Simmons was drafted by a different team last year. In one of them he started game one, played light out and made the pro bowl as a rookie (like Darius Leonard). In another he tore his ACL in camp and never fully recovers. Where players are drafted has a major impact on how they perform. Scheme fit, coaches, complimentary talent etc

On saying that, Keim has been pretty damn poor at at that aspect of scouting. How do you go looking for an alpha mentality center like Shipley or Hudson and land on Mason Cole. Cole would struggle to tear a whole in a wet paper bag and then apologize for it.

 

[Mainstreet]

This reminds me of the movie moneyball where billy beane is in the room trying to explain the nuances of the new style of baseball with all the old school scouts that just don't understand how to evaluate the new age of players coming out. We have these guys, minus the billy beane.

I like this analogy.

We need to think about players that produce touchdowns and make stops.

 

[football karma]

For example, there are 31 alternate universes where Simmons was drafted by a different team last year.

also one of them was where Campbell wasnt on the Cards roster and they were forced to live with Simmons mistakes as he learned --- oddly enough, while the defense would have been worse, we likely would feel better about Simmons right now

i dont see Cole by himself as a failure in scouting. By the third round, you are taking players with flaws -- its the reason why ~75% of 3rd rounders "fail" (defined as "nothing more than journeyman depth at best)

where i see (one of) the failure(s) is that most teams can take a later round OL and turn them into a replacement level starter or better -- some teams are outstanding at it (the Packers and Steelers as examples). The Packers and Steelers have plenty of misses too, but enough hits to build high end OLs without expensive FAs. Cole is simply the latest in 3rd day or later OLs that havent worked for the Cards.

 

[tnmike]

I think a lot of fans completely discount that a draft pick didn't work out because their team drafted him. It's easy to assume the guy just is what he is and it was all down to scouting and the GM.

For example, there are 31 alternate universes where Simmons was drafted by a different team last year. In one of them he started game one, played light out and made the pro bowl as a rookie (like Darius Leonard). In another he tore his ACL in camp and never fully recovers. Where players are drafted has a major impact on how they perform. Scheme fit, coaches, complimentary talent etc

On saying that, Keim has been pretty damn poor at at that aspect of scouting. How do you go looking for an alpha mentality center like Shipley or Hudson and land on Mason Cole. Cole would struggle to tear a whole in a wet paper bag and then apologize for it.

In an alternate universe he could end up sitting in front of a computer commenting on why draft picks didn't pan out.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I think a lot of fans completely discount that a draft pick didn't work out because their team drafted him. It's easy to assume the guy just is what he is and it was all down to scouting and the GM.

For example, there are 31 alternate universes where Simmons was drafted by a different team last year. In one of them he started game one, played light out and made the pro bowl as a rookie (like Darius Leonard). In another he tore his ACL in camp and never fully recovers. Where players are drafted has a major impact on how they perform. Scheme fit, coaches, complimentary talent etc

On saying that, Keim has been pretty damn poor at at that aspect of scouting. How do you go looking for an alpha mentality center like Shipley or Hudson and land on Mason Cole. Cole would struggle to tear a whole in a wet paper bag and then apologize for it.

The hit rate on centers over the past decade is exceedingly poor too. In the first 3 rounds, only a handful have panned out. It's just such a tough position to be good at.

 

[QuebecCard]

I think a lot of fans completely discount that a draft pick didn't work out because their team drafted him. It's easy to assume the guy just is what he is and it was all down to scouting and the GM.

For example, there are 31 alternate universes where Simmons was drafted by a different team last year. In one of them he started game one, played light out and made the pro bowl as a rookie (like Darius Leonard). In another he tore his ACL in camp and never fully recovers. Where players are drafted has a major impact on how they perform. Scheme fit, coaches, complimentary talent etc

On saying that, Keim has been pretty damn poor at at that aspect of scouting. How do you go looking for an alpha mentality center like Shipley or Hudson and land on Mason Cole. Cole would struggle to tear a whole in a wet paper bag and then apologize for it.

A colourful analogy for a guy who could crush you like an aluminium beer can but, yes, he probably would say sorry after.

 

[QuebecCard]

also, one of them was where Campbell wasn't on the Cards roster and they were forced to live with Simmons mistakes as he learned --- oddly enough, while the defense would have been worse, we likely would feel better about Simmons right now

i don't see Cole by himself as a failure in scouting. By the third round, you are taking players with flaws -- its the reason why ~75% of 3rd rounders "fail" (defined as "nothing more than journeyman depth at best)

where I see (one of) the failure(s) is that most teams can take a later round OL and turn them into a replacement-level starter or better -- some teams are outstanding at it (the Packers and Steelers as examples). The Packers and Steelers have plenty of misses too, but enough hits to build high end OLs without expensive FAs. Cole is simply the latest in 3rd day or later OLs that havent worked for the Cards.

I feel fine about Simmons.

That said, I have to agree with your assessment given that relatively 30% of 3rd round selections receive a multi-year renewal of their first contract.

There's a reason why Bill B. in NE covets multiple draft picks: failure in the selection process, which beyond athletic prowess and success at College levels, which can be evaluated, is more Art than Science.

 

[Veer]

I agree with the trade of Cole. But watch him become a better player this season because he is a much better fit in their pure outsize zone and run heavy playcalling. Cole will never be a strong anchor vs NFL DTs because he plays too tall and light, no matter if at C or G. He will never get much push in the power game. But put him on the move with combo blocks, he will fit the Vikings well.

 

[BritCard]

A colourful analogy for a guy who could crush you like an aluminium beer can but, yes, he probably would say sorry after.

He could indeed. But in NFL terms his biggest weakness is power and explosiveness.

It was right there in his combine results so no excuses. 30th percentile bench. 4th percentile VJ at only 23.5". 24th percentile arm length.

None of it shouted he was worth a 3rd.

 

[BigDavis75]

He could indeed. But in NFL terms his biggest weakness is power and explosiveness.

It was right there in his combine results so no excuses. 30th percentile bench. 4th percentile VJ at only 23.5". 24th percentile arm length.

None of it shouted he was worth a 3rd.

I remember his strength being a concern which a huge red flag when you have to play Donald twice a year.