Suns @ Pacers Saturday game thread 1-9-2021

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Dude stop. That’s just silly.

Wrong. Sorting by PPG is silly. I was making a point—that you clearly missed—that production can be had in myriad ways. Allen has been demonstrably more effective than every center except Jokic and he’s not shooting to be effective.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

What you’re missing is what happens when the threes aren’t falling? Like Detroit. That’s when you would like to be able to feed what should be a beast in the post. I truly get the feeling that you think we’ve arrived. Like we are the champions. Creating maximum flexibility both defensively and offensively should be our goal. How do you stop a team that can rain threes and has an unstoppable force near the basket? You can’t. But you seem to want to settle for less.

I am writing off Detroit. We could have won that if we wanted to. I truly believe our focus was just absent (doubt that happens in the playoffs), as will happen to elite teams when they’re playing meaningless regular season games. We missed plenty of open threes in Pacers game and we decided to just get where we wanted and made tons of easy ones.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You assume two things here, both fatal to your argument:
1. That the offense would be better if Ayton “went back to his rookie year” play (really just a lot of looting in a riot), as opposed to our #4 ranked offense (with subpar play from CP and DB) that is working extremely well exactly as it is being deployed.
2. That there wouldn’t be a concomitant drop off in his defense if he went back to the level of offensive play...in the year that he was...awful at defense at the most important defensive position by far. Energy is a thing. Fans who never played sports think guys never have to ramp it down; they’re dumb.

You know what’s dumb? Are argument. Plenty of great players have excelled at both ends. Jordan, pippin, Duncan, Kobe, KG, Lebron, embiid, kawhi and I’m just rattling off a few off the top of my head. Your energy argument holds no water.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You assume two things here, both fatal to your argument:
1. That the offense would be better if Ayton “went back to his rookie year” play (really just a lot of looting in a riot), as opposed to our #4 ranked offense (with subpar play from CP and DB) that is working extremely well exactly as it is being deployed.
2. That there wouldn’t be a concomitant drop off in his defense if he went back to the level of offensive play...in the year that he was...awful at defense at the most important defensive position by far. Energy is a thing. Fans who never played sports think guys never have to ramp it down; they’re dumb.

You know what’s dumb? Your argument. Plenty of great players have excelled at both ends. Jordan, pippin, Duncan, Kobe, KG, Lebron, embiid, kawhi and I’m just rattling off a few off the top of my head. Your energy argument holds no water.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I seriously believe people will complain here if Ayton passes out to a shooter to win a playoff game. Those folks are lame and I’m not letting it slide for decorum’s sake. Sometimes children need discipline.

Calling other posters names is just the worst form of argumentation. Again, you have some good takes but you lose respectability when you lose your self control.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Wrong. Sorting by PPG is silly. I was making a point—that you clearly missed—that production can be had in myriad ways. Allen has been demonstrably more effective than every center except Jokic and he’s not shooting to be effective.

I definitely missed it because I thought you were touting Ayton as the second best center. The reason I missed it? Because no knowledgeable basketball fan would ever consider Jarrett the second best center in the game, regardless of any specific analytic. Neither would any GM or coach or any other player. So your point was completely specious.

 

[Carolinacacti]

You know what’s dumb? Your argument. Plenty of great players have excelled at both ends. Jordan, pippin, Duncan, Kobe, KG, Lebron, embiid, kawhi and I’m just rattling off a few off the top of my head. Your energy argument holds no water.

That's the problem, Ayton Just seems to run out of gas fast. He looks in great shape. Smokes to much small lungs who knows. I still think he worries about fowls to a fault.

 

[Hoop Head]

I was sorting by WS. It’s probably not optimal but it’s better than lolPPG.

Jarrett Allen.

Win share just 9-10 games into the season is not a good indicator of who the best anything is. Allen certainly isn't the second best C behind Jokic. Even Allen's mother wouldn't say that. Look at PER for a better stat to rank players and Jokic is #1 and Embiid #2. Again though its early in the season and we'll see how some guys maintain those stats.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I let my emotions get the better of me earlier about fools gold. The depth of this team allows us to find the hot hand. Great bounce back game tonight for the team and bridges.

I’ll give Eddie big credit, he calls out Ayton on stuff all game long. He says Paul and monty will be doing so also, I hope he’s right. Bc Eddie is spot on with every observation he makes about Ayton.

Ayton needs to grow some balls. I'm not saying he is below average. Or even Average. He is above average. But he should be an almost unstoppable force but he isn't. Players with his gifts shouldnt be told to "WANT" the rebound. Or "DUNK" instead of fade away.

that’s a hell of a win on a back to back, coming off blowing that huge lead last night.

AGREED!

+12 and clamped Sabonis and the rim in the 4th. GAME BALL FOR BIG FELLA

“GAME BALL?” Dude, you have some good takes but your “Ayton is the best player ever” position severely undercuts your credibility.

Ayton finally started moving his feet on defense against Sabonis in the 4th but still either fouled or allowed most of the switches to shoot over him for scores. he also fumbled the ball away twice down the stretch. Did he add to the win? For sure. “GAME BALL?” Only DOMINAYTON would agree with you.

I don't care how you frame it @WhyAlwaysMe. Sabonis shot 50% from the field, with 28pts and 22 boards. Had twice as many offensive rebounds as Ayton, and plays the game with passion and attitude. Ayton is a unicorn on the court playing like the human version of cotton candy. And his hands remind me of Bryant Johnson.

If the ALL CAPS didn’t make it clear, I wasn’t saying Ayton played amazing, but he was critical for the win as we were scoring at will but couldn’t stop them (until he stopped DS) or get a rebound (until he closed up shop) and it fascinates me how little credit he gets.

I just wish he aggressively attacked the boards. He should mop up the glass like Dwight did 10 to 12 years ago. All he has to do is WANT to do it.

Ayton has been disappointing offensively because he was expected to be a generational scoring big man. He’s surpassed expectations defensively because nobody expected him to be a plus on that side of the ball. He can’t handle what is expected of him. On defense he just has to react to what he sees where offensively he needs to be the one instigating.

Good post IMO. It's easy to be pissed at what we dont see on offense and what were are now seeing sometimes on defense.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Gobert is averaging over 5 shots per game.

Embiid is averaging over 5 shots per game.

Hell, even Clint Capella is averaging over 5 shots per game.

I could go on and on here.



what you feel and what actually is are two very different things. The idea that we just want to see Ayton back to the his rookie year level of offensive play as somehow being stupid is truly bizarre.



there's nothing smart about taking yourself completely out of plays catching the ball at the top of the key. There's nothing smart about bringing the ball down which Ayton does repeatedly when he either gets the ball in perfect position to score. And there's nothing smart about a 7 footer who just routinely gets stuffed at the rim because he puts up a weak layup attempt instead of going up strong.

Akeem wasn't a "tough guy". David Robinson wasn't a "tough guy". Tim Duncan wasn't a "tough guy". Ayton has the skills to be that guy and instead of playing like Clint Capella on offense. No one wants Ayton to be Shaq. That's just a straw man argument you've created because you have none to actually make re: his offense.

This! All he has to do is WANT IT. That's all I ask for.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't care how you frame it @WhyAlwaysMe. Sabonis shot 50% from the field, with 28pts and 22 boards. Had twice as many offensive rebounds as Ayton, and plays the game with passion and attitude. Ayton is a unicorn on the court playing like the human version of cotton candy. And his hands remind me of Bryant Johnson.

Very little of that was due to Ayton.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Ayton needs to grow some balls. I'm not saying he is below average. Or even Average. He is above average. But he should be an almost unstoppable force but he isn't. Players with his gifts shouldnt be told to "WANT" the rebound. Or "DUNK" instead of fade away.



AGREED!





I don't care how you frame it @WhyAlwaysMe. Sabonis shot 50% from the field, with 28pts and 22 boards. Had twice as many offensive rebounds as Ayton, and plays the game with passion and attitude. Ayton is a unicorn on the court playing like the human version of cotton candy. And his hands remind me of Bryant Johnson.


I just wish he aggressively attacked the boards. He should mop up the glass like Dwight did 10 to 12 years ago. All he has to do is WANT to do it.

Good post IMO. It's easy to be pissed at what we dont see on offense and what were are now seeing sometimes on defense.

Sabonis used 29 possessions for 28 points and got clamped in winning time. He’s a stud and Ayton shhhhhhh’d him. I DONT CARE YOU FRAME IT lmao

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Very little of that was due to Ayton.

It’s funny. Folks either don’t watch (I’m assuming with Harrison) or are terrible at watching (your 1sun and his ilk), and just mercilessly bleat their opinions all over the internet authoritatively. Love these kinds of clowns at court.

 

[Chaplin]

Look, I know Ayton was pretty much a wuss offensively, but don't go blaming Sabonis' performance on him. Crowder was the defensive assignment more than Ayton was, and Jae stunk it up.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Very little of that was due to Ayton.

Yeah. In fact the Pacers only made 8 of 25 shots when defended by Ayton (32% and the best on the team).

 

[Dr. Jones]

Calling other posters names is just the worst form of argumentation. Again, you have some good takes but you lose respectability when you lose your self control.

It’s funny. Folks either don’t watch (I’m assuming with Harrison) or are terrible at watching (your 1sun and his ilk), and just mercilessly bleat their opinions all over the internet authoritatively. Love these kinds of clowns at court.

I get that you think your right. Personally I think your somewhat wrong. Continuing to call people names because you think your right only makes you look like a jerk. And it magnifies how little you respect debate.

why be on a forum if your just going to be that way? Makes no sense. And like ouchie said..... you look out of control dude. No one respects that.

 

[Dr. Jones]

And the “Like a fine wine, I understand the hidden complexities and deep undertones of NBA defense that your feeble mind doesn’t” will continue to be ignored if your attitude is so toxic.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Look, I know Ayton was pretty much a wuss offensively, but don't go blaming Sabonis' performance on him. Crowder was the defensive assignment more than Ayton was, and Jae stunk it up.

I can agree with this. My argument is about the defensive and offensive glass. Our most dominant rebounder just gets what comes to him IMO. Sabonis wanted boards.

 

[1Sun]

Look, I know Ayton was pretty much a wuss offensively, but don't go blaming Sabonis' performance on him. Crowder was the defensive assignment more than Ayton was, and Jae stunk it up.

As I said from the moment he was signed, Crowder is not the defensive player he used to be. He has been a pleasant surprise in terms of his complimentary scoring and occasional rebounding, but I knew this was coming from the beginning...

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Sabonis is the best rebounder in the NBA. He’s also 2 years older than Ayton. Not sure he should be the bar. Ayton gets plenty of contested boards. High points a lot of em.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Sabonis is the best rebounder in the NBA. He’s also 2 years older than Ayton. Not sure he should be the bar. Ayton gets plenty of contested boards. High points a lot of em.

I’m curious, is there anything you want out of Ayton, or is he perfect as-is in your opinion. Seriously asking. And if there are any warts, what do you see those as being?

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

I’m curious, is there anything you want out of Ayton, or is he perfect as-is in your opinion. Seriously asking. And if there are any warts, what do you see those as being?

I would like to see him shoot a few 3s per game, and then start to incorporate some dribble drive skills off the shot fake from 3.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I would like to see him shoot a few 3s per game, and then start to incorporate some dribble drive skills off the shot fake from 3.

But other than those two items he’s perfect just the way he is?

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

But other than those two items he’s perfect just the way he is?

Those are the two areas (related) that I think he has the most room for improvement (and would help the team the most if he could improve them).

Nobody is perfect.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I feel like a certain contingent of fans would prefer him to aimlessly barrel into defenders like their archetypal TOUGH GUY from the 80s and 90s when their child like impressions of right and wrong were formed.

I prefer smart over stupid.

You have to stop with this stuff. Your point was fine without adding in the insult. It's why you keep getting breaks here.