Suns @ Kings Sunday game thread 12-27-2020

[Dr. Jones]

I just don't understand the whole league average talk.

The best sample we have to go off of would be his play last season and last season he was arguably a top 10 big man in the NBA (including 4s and 5s).

If that equals an average player than I am just at a complete loss for words here.

You can "argue" anything you want, but he received zero All-NBA votes, putting him behind (by my count) ten bigs who got at least one.

I was going to reference this exact point.

If Ayton develops into a Bam Adebayo type player I will be quite happy.

I saw a glimpse of that last night when Deandre was helping to initiate the offense with his passing. It's really the first time he showed me that he could do more than score, rebound and be the occasional defensive force. This made me wonder if his basketball IQ is much higher than we give him credit. If this is the case, he is still just putting his game together.

Bam was only an example. Jokic is not very athletic and the Nuggets run much of their offense through him.

I'm simply saying if the Suns can funnel some of their offense through him, it increase his value to the team.

Bam was 5th in DPOY voting last season. And he got more 1st place votes than Ben Simmons who finished 4th.

Ayton will never have the defensive impact of Bam Adebayo.

And talking Spiritually again..... Bam is the exact type of player you want to root for as a fan.

 

[Mainstreet]

@Dr. Jones

When trying to convey a point it can get lost because no two players are identical. When I saw Ayton distributing last night I thought of Bam doing the same thing. I didn't use Jokic as an example because his distribution skills are at a higher level.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

I was going to reference this exact point.





Bam was 5th in DPOY voting last season. And he got more 1st place votes than Ben Simmons who finished 4th.

Ayton will never have the defensive impact of Bam Adebayo.

And talking Spiritually again..... Bam is the exact type of player you want to root for as a fan.

Way too early to say this. In his second year, Bam only started 28 games. He improved a lot in his third year. Also, Ayton is sporting a DRTG of 99 right now and leading a top5 defense. It’s obviously early but the Mavs and Kings are good offenses. Let’s give the team 20 games and if Ayton and the team keep up the defensive performance I would say Ayton belongs in the discussion of DPOY.

 

[elindholm]

There are 3 all NBA teams and a total of 6 bigs on those teams. Then factor in that at least 3-4 of those guys are absolute shoe ins to make those teams and it is understandable why the votes aren't very spread out.

Here are the eight centers who received votes ahead of Ayton:

Davis
Jokic
Gobert
Embiid
Adebayo
Drummond
Towns
BLopez

If you want to say that Davis is a PF, then he gets lumped in with the other PFs who got votes: Antetokounmpo and Siakam.

 

[JCSunsfan]

If Ayton was on another team, we would be pining for him. His offensive production has been average or better, his D has been good, his rebounding excellent. If he was not the #1 pick we would all be thinking differently. It might be wise to just forget where he was drafted and enjoy this team as is.

 

[notdeadyet]

Chris Paul is actively working with him, so I'll hold off on judging him for a while. If anyone can get him on the same page, it's Paul. Ayton does look like he's thinking more than reacting at this point...

 

[GatorAZ]

If Ayton was on another team, we would be pining for him. His offensive production has been average or better, his D has been good, his rebounding excellent. If he was not the #1 pick we would all be thinking differently. It might be wise to just forget where he was drafted and enjoy this team as is.

The only thing that would be different is that fans wouldn’t feel like they made a mistake but Ayton would still be the same player with the same issues. Eventually draft position is irrelevant in how you should view a player. Right now it’s just still fresh.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Here are the eight centers who received votes ahead of Ayton:

Davis
Jokic
Gobert
Embiid
Adebayo
Drummond
Towns
BLopez

If you want to say that Davis is a PF, then he gets lumped in with the other PFs who got votes: Antetokounmpo and Siakam.

Again he likely wasn't even in consideration with the suspension and only playing about half the season. Had he played the whole season he probably gets some votes.

I mean just look no further than your own listed players. Do you honestly think Lopez gets votes over Ayton if Ayton doesn't get suspended?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

The only thing that would be different is that fans wouldn’t feel like they made a mistake but Ayton would still be the same player with the same issues. Eventually draft position is irrelevant in how you should view a player. Right now it’s just still fresh.

In some cases maybe, but in this case draft position is a huge driving factor in why people judge him so harshly.

If he was taken 5 or later pretty much everyone would be much happier with the player that he already is.

 

[GatorAZ]

In some cases maybe, but in this case draft position is a huge driving factor in why people judge him so harshly.

If he was taken 5 or later pretty much everyone would be much happier with the player that he already is.

It’s a tough hypothetical because that talented of a player on the surface isn’t dropping.

 

[Chaplin]

The problem is that regardless of his #1 status, we actually SEE how great he could be. It feels like it's there, lurking on the surface, it just needs something to open the floodgates. If we didn't see the potential, we'd be much more satisfied, but it's there and tantalizingly out of reach right now.

 

[RockinDaMike]

It’s all mental with Ayton, Suns need to get the best sports psychologist to work with him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[elindholm]

The problem is that regardless of his #1 status, we actually SEE how great he could be. It feels like it's there, lurking on the surface, it just needs something to open the floodgates. If we didn't see the potential, we'd be much more satisfied, but it's there and tantalizingly out of reach right now.

Maybe. My current hypothesis is that it's his basketball IQ that's lacking. It seems like the game is too fast for him. His effort sometimes lapses, but I don't think effort is the main problem. What I see is him overthinking every decision, trying to avoid mistakes, and not having any instincts to fall back on.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Maybe. My current hypothesis is that it's his basketball IQ that's lacking. It seems like the game is too fast for him. His effort sometimes lapses, but I don't think effort is the main problem. What I see is him overthinking every decision, trying to avoid mistakes, and not having any instincts to fall back on.

I think we are seeing his late start of getting into playing basketball.

He doesn't have a vast repertoire of moves to go to and he certainly isn't comfortable stringing together moves to beat a defender.

It pretty much all comes down to feel for the game and right now he doesn't have much of it. Specifically on the offensive end.

 

[95pro]

If we could just see Ayton go back up after collecting a rebound maybe 2-4 times a game, we might not be complaining so much. And instead of layups, dunk everything. He cant even do a simple drop step and try to finish.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Here are the eight centers who received votes ahead of Ayton:

Davis
Jokic
Gobert
Embiid
Adebayo
Drummond
Towns
BLopez

If you want to say that Davis is a PF, then he gets lumped in with the other PFs who got votes: Antetokounmpo and Siakam.

Lopez is a pretty big stretch.

 

[elindholm]

Lopez is a pretty big stretch.

I agree, but there are plenty of others in that tier who seem to be at Ayton's level or higher, e.g. Nurkic, Vucevic, Valanciunas, and Aldridge if you consider him a C.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The problem is that regardless of his #1 status, we actually SEE how great he could be. It feels like it's there, lurking on the surface, it just needs something to open the floodgates. If we didn't see the potential, we'd be much more satisfied, but it's there and tantalizingly out of reach right now.

this.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I agree, but there are plenty of others in that tier who seem to be at Ayton's level or higher, e.g. Nurkic, Vucevic, Valanciunas, and Aldridge if you consider him a C.

true.

 

[elindholm]

I think we are seeing his late start of getting into playing basketball.

He doesn't have a vast repertoire of moves to go to and he certainly isn't comfortable stringing together moves to beat a defender.

It pretty much all comes down to feel for the game and right now he doesn't have much of it. Specifically on the offensive end.

Right, but that's all the more reason that we would have expected improvement over the last couple of years, instead of regression. It doesn't look like he's learned anything other than improved rebounding fundamentals.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think we are seeing his late start of getting into playing basketball.

He doesn't have a vast repertoire of moves to go to and he certainly isn't comfortable stringing together moves to beat a defender.

It pretty much all comes down to feel for the game and right now he doesn't have much of it. Specifically on the offensive end.

oh come on... enough with “the late start”. He’s been playing basketball for over a DECADE. He wasn’t found on a different planet and only saw a basketball for the first time when he was 18 years old.

I think the bigger problem is he’s a natural and the game actually came easy for him... but because he doesn’t have a great motor, he’s too lazy to actually do the work to become great. It’s almost as if he’s blessed with too much talent/size.

 

[Chaplin]

Maybe. My current hypothesis is that it's his basketball IQ that's lacking. It seems like the game is too fast for him. His effort sometimes lapses, but I don't think effort is the main problem. What I see is him overthinking every decision, trying to avoid mistakes, and not having any instincts to fall back on.

You may be right, but I've seen a bunch of videos of him watching film of himself and he has consistently been intelligent about what he is doing wrong. Maybe it doesn't translate to the court as well as we'd like, but I don't think it's as cut-and-dry as just being a lack of basketball IQ.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

In a way, and especially if Cam Payne keeps it up and Bridges and Johnson continue to improve, the Suns compare fairly similarly to Toronto.

Booker as lead alpha Kawhi
Paul as crafty table setter in Lowry
Ayton as Ibaka
Bridges/Cam as Siakim analogs
CamPayne as the FVV bench juice
Shooters like Galloway man the fort
Tough guys like Jae and Saric that don’t suck

They players might occupy the same slots but the ability is way off.

book is nowhere near the two way player that kawhi is. And I’d be shocked if he’s ever considered a top 5 player in the game as kawhi has been.

Paul was better than Lowry at their peaks, but Paul is also much further from his peak than was Lowry and the further down the road we get the less Paul will be able to occupy this slot.

Ayton as Ibaka is a slight lean to Ayton.

bridges/cam don’t compare favorably with siakam. Maybe one will with time, maybe.

Payne to van vleet is a joke

I think Toronto is a bad comp. I still go back to Hamilton-wallaces-billups pistons as beat comp. no top 5 nba guy, but great depth. Not saying suns will compare defensively. But it will be with great depth across entire roster that will hopefully win games.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Read into it how you will, that's your prerogative. I'm just tired of this board and every thread on it turning into an "Ayton sucks" diatribe. We get it you all don't like that he isn't living up to expectations. But do you have to continually post it over and over and over and over? I don't like that he's playing like a mediocre starting center, but I'm not whining about it in every post I ever write.

I literally said I wasn’t going to discuss it. When someone starts to argue with me I’m not allowed to respond? Maybe attack the guy who instigated with me instead of me. Ask yourself why you chose that course of action? Its because you agree with the guy who chose to bring it up with me.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm going to toss my hat into the Ayton disagreement and say this:

Ayton is both a good player AND a disappointment. He isn't a scrub, and is one of the top centers in the league. The context is that center is about as poorly manned today as the position ever has been, so all time, Ayton isn't that good.

He is a huge disappointment because he was the #1 overall pick and the Suns missed out on a potential generational talent in Doncic and a real good, albeit ball hog point guard as well.

But he is still a good, contributing player so it's not like he is a total waste. And he will end up being overpaid at some point if he doesn't take another big step forward.

At least the Cardinals made the right choice...

As shocked as many of you might be to read this, this is exactly my perspective on Ayton. I just kill him in-game because his errors and soft play are such blantantly obvious instances that I feel slapped in the face with each one. I recognize this team isn’t as good without him, but I also recognize how much better it could be if he had any fire in his belly. I am just not one to settle. Maybe I’m too competitive in spirit.