Taking CeeDee Lamb the argument to take a wide receiver

SoonerLou

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Give me a playoff team paying their 4th wideout $11 million. Otherwise, it's wishful thinking.


Wow, the Saints? Really? Michael Thomas is great, but he has an all-time player throwing to him, and Emmanuel Sanders has barely broken 1,000 yards once in four years. And the Chiefs? Not a single 1,000 yard wide receiver, just the best modern QB in the league throwing the rock.

The Bucs, Rams, and Browns are the only ones with stronger WR corps (arguable on the Browns), and outside of the Rams, it hasn't amounted to anything.

Didn't we draft a supposed elite QB at #1 overall? Shouldn't he be able to make something out of a WR corps that has a top four completely comprised of 1st & 2nd round picks?
watched this game earlier today

The thing that stood out.....Mahomes vision and McVay's run action (play action pass)

Mahomes has been truly built to throw with multiple threats on the field. Now he has a NFL master play caller and a good oline. Yeesh the Rams with a solid Oline and McVay's ability to set up pass plays.
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All in all...Kyler and Kliff have a lot of work to do.
 

Solar7

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Definitely not a playoff team with Fitz as #2 WR. What does Kyler have to do with YAC? The whole point of bringing Kingsbury here was to build an elite offense. We need skill players for that.
Fitz isn't #2 necessarily, he plays a functional #2 alongside Kirk as they line up on the field.

If Kliff can't build an elite offense with a #1 overall QB he's coveted forever, a top-3 WR, a Hall Of Fame WR, a 2nd round WR well versed in his style of offense, a 2nd round WR he seemingly hand-picked, and an RB people say is a perfect fit for his offense, then why is he the coach? Given all of that, most of us should be able to pick plays on Madden to win, not need another top-10 draft pick at WR just to make things work.

We have tons of skill players already. What we don't have is an OL or a defense.
 
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Solar7

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watched this game earlier today

The thing that stood out.....Mahomes vision and McVay's run action (play action pass)

Mahomes has been truly built to throw with multiple threats on the field. Now he has a NFL master play caller and a good oline. Yeesh the Rams with a solid Oline and McVay's ability to set up pass plays.
xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

All in all...Kyler and Kliff have a lot of work to do.
Both Mahomes and even Goff do plenty with less acquired talent than the Cards currently have. Mahomes, along with strong coaching, sets up his success... same for the Rams!

I don't think you're saying anything different, but these guys rock without premium investments at their skill positions. What they do have are really solid offensive lines.
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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Fitz isn't #2 necessarily, he plays a functional #2 alongside Kirk as they line up on the field.

If Kliff can't build an elite offense with a #1 overall QB he's coveted forever, a top-3 WR, an HOF WR, a 2nd round WR well versed in his style of offense, a 2nd round WR he seemingly hand-picked, and an RB people say is a perfect fit for his offense, then why is he the coach? Given all of that, most of us should be able to pick plays on Madden to win, not need another top-10 draft pick at WR just to make things work.

We have tons of skill players already. What we don't have is an OL or a defense.
We added to the defense in FA obviously, is that enough? I really don't know. You're right, Kyler needs to be protected in order to throw the ball. I'm not for or against taking a WR, I'll get behind any pick we make. I think some of the posters are saying "stack the offense & outscore opponents" is that the right move? Who knows? Is Lamb even the best WR in this draft? We don't know that either. I just want us taking the player that helps us the most with our 1st rd pick. You could be right? It may very well be an OT? If Simmons or Brown is there at #8, it would be hard for me to pass on either if I was the GM. I'm in the belief that Andrew Thomas is the most ready OL'man in this draft. He played RT his freshman year at Georgia & LT his sophomore & junior yrs. He can play both sides. Not sure any of the other OT's can say that?
 

Praxis

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Fitz isn't #2 necessarily, he plays a functional #2 alongside Kirk as they line up on the field.

If Kliff can't build an elite offense with a #1 overall QB he's coveted forever, a top-3 WR, a Hall Of Fame WR, a 2nd round WR well versed in his style of offense, a 2nd round WR he seemingly hand-picked, and an RB people say is a perfect fit for his offense, then why is he the coach? Given all of that, most of us should be able to pick plays on Madden to win, not need another top-10 draft pick at WR just to make things work.

We have tons of skill players already. What we don't have is an OL or a defense.

Lol all of that boils down to Hopkins, old man Fitz, and everybody else. Do you want to win with Kyler or not? Lamb is BPA.
 
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BritCard

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Fascinating analogy! It would also apply to education. You just get a minimal general knowledge the first two years then waste the last two focusing on just your major. The theory being that you become so excellent at one discipline you can make a good living. In NFL terms your offense would be so dominant that you would sustain drives and keep the defense rested. The other teams offense would have their play selection truncated as they’d typically be playing catch up.

Yes, and as I said. It's already the best room on the roster and a top 5 WR in the league. Hopkins, Kirk and Fitz is a superb trio. It's just is. Nuk is a top 3 WR, Kirk is arguably a top 10 WR2 and Fitz is the best WR3 in the league (Flip Kirk and Fitz if you wish for the same result).

There's no need to add anything else to the room. And when Fitz decides to retire we will know months in advance of the draft, or one of the 4 young WR's we have will have kicked on to take his place.
 

Solar7

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We added to the defense in FA obviously, is that enough? I really don't know. You're right, Kyler needs to be protected in order to throw the ball. I'm not for or against taking a WR, I'll get behind any pick we make. I think some of the posters are saying "stack the offense & outscore opponents" is that the right move? Who knows? Is Lamb even the best WR in this draft? We don't know that either. I just want us taking the player that helps us the most with our 1st rd pick. You could be right? It may very well be an OT? If Simmons or Brown is there at #8, it would be hard for me to pass on either if I was the GM. I'm in the belief that Andrew Thomas is the most ready OL'man in this draft. He played RT his freshman year at Georgia & LT his sophomore & junior yrs. He can play both sides. Not sure any of the other OT's can say that?

I think you just want the best player at hand, and don't really have a strong opinion, which is totally fine! I've gotten to know your perspective a lot better.

I have a much more defined look on the team, and they've done a good job this offseason to make me feel like we can build a team to move forward.

Lol all of that boils down to Hopkins, old man Fitz, and everybody else. Do you want to win with Kyler or not? Lamb is BPA.

I'd love to win with Kyler - I think we CAN win with Kyler. As part of that, I'd like to protect Kyler, provide him with a decent running game, and provide him with a defense that isn't the worst in the league. A QB drafted number one overall should set the league on fire with a top-3 WR. He has plenty of additional assets.

Lamb's not an unequivocal BPA. That's where things break down. He's not even the consensus #1 WR.
 

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I don't think anyone is mistaking our WR unit for top 5, probably the back end of the top 10. So saying our WR is already a team defining strength is true, but that isn't exactly getting to the OP point.

The point is making it so strong it can single handedly win is games. Obviously, Nuk alone puts us in that realm. Potentially added another quality WR to the bunch, who also fits the offense, gets to the OP point.

An overwhelming unit to rely upon and one that multiplies Murray's potential towards realization.

Ive already seen analysts list it as top 5.

When you add a WR1 thats top 3 in the league thats what happens. Show me 5 WR trio's that are better.
 

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Cardsfaninlouky

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I think you just want the best player at hand, and don't really have a strong opinion, which is totally fine! I've gotten to know your perspective a lot better.

I have a much more defined look on the team, and they've done a good job this offseason to make me feel like we can build a team to move forward.



I'd love to win with Kyler - I think we CAN win with Kyler. As part of that, I'd like to protect Kyler, provide him with a decent running game, and provide him with a defense that isn't the worst in the league. A QB drafted number one overall should set the league on fire with a top-3 WR. He has plenty of additional assets.

Lamb's not an unequivocal BPA. That's where things break down. He's not even the consensus #1 WR.
You're 100% right on that my brother. One can make their case for any player with 1st rd potential. No one knows for sure which players will pan out, just educated guesses I suppose? Just give me the best player available that can help our team in 2020, regardless of position & I'm good.
 

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You really believe Fitz is going to end up as the #4 receiver on this team? He's still the face of the franchise.

KK offence has multiple WO sets and I wouldn't be surprised if they add TE targets to Fitz.

And 1,2,3,4 leaves the impression that KM is going through this progression in that order.

In fact... it's OPEN or COVERED.

THROW BALL!
 

AZCrazy

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Is the difference in ability between Lamb and a 3rd round WR actually that great?
Is Lamb more betterer than Chase Claypool or Jalen Reagor or Denzel Mims by so much that you think the difference is greater than the upgrade from Justin Murray to Jedrick Wills or Mekhi Becton?
 

GuernseyCard

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Our WR unit is easily top five. Go ahead and name five better.

The easy argument against taking another WR at 8 is that Kyler Murray was a top 5 pressured QB, and our defence was 32nd. Putting a Lamb/Ruggs on the field for 30-50% of snaps (let's be honest, at best), means we're fine with asking Kyler to run away and bring his WRs back to the ball, ruining any real play design.

God forbid the kid has an off game, or our defence lets the other team right back into it, like 3/5 wins last year.

I'd prefer that one of the defensive stalwarts (Brown?) falls to us at #8 and is the pick, knowing he'll have an immediate impact.

This can't be said for any O-lineman selected. It may be, perhaps likely, that Wills or Wirf would be a backup initially.

So all this banging on about pressure on KM in 2020 isn't truly relevant to this draft.

As such, unless a defensive stalwart drops to #8, CeeDee who would get his snaps from day #1... is in play.
 

akg102

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Is the difference in ability between Lamb and a 3rd round WR actually that great?
Is Lamb more betterer than Chase Claypool or Jalen Reagor or Denzel Mims by so much that you think the difference is greater than the upgrade from Justin Murray to Jedrick Wills or Mekhi Becton?

The best part about football is the complexity and synergism of parts. Does a great OL make the WR corp look better than it is? Does a great QB/WR corp make the OL appear better than it is?

I think the answer to both is 'yes.' And the opposite is true as well...

Just eyeing the numbers, there doesn't appear to be a strong correlation between 'Time to Throw' and many other passing metrics that gauge efficiency. The outliers are those teams with both a good WR corp and OL or a poor WR corp and OL. (with QB performance being obvious)

From a fan's perspective, we're dealing with the seen vs unseen. The effects of a poor OT performance are seen immediately. A poor WR performance is unseen.....the effects are things that happen in the backfield, but are not readily placed at the feet of a WR corp.

My thoughts are always, 'take the player with the highest likelihood of becoming elite.' Sometimes replacing adequate players with elite players can have unexpected effects. Either way, both of these groups could use an upgrade.
 

Mr. Boldin

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Give me a playoff team paying their 4th wideout $11 million. Otherwise, it's wishful thinking.


Wow, the Saints? Really? Michael Thomas is great, but he has an all-time player throwing to him, and Emmanuel Sanders has barely broken 1,000 yards once in four years. And the Chiefs? Not a single 1,000 yard wide receiver, just the best modern QB in the league throwing the rock.

The Bucs, Rams, and Browns are the only ones with stronger WR corps (arguable on the Browns), and outside of the Rams, it hasn't amounted to anything.

Didn't we draft a supposed elite QB at #1 overall? Shouldn't he be able to make something out of a WR corps that has a top four completely comprised of 1st & 2nd round picks?

That was easy. Agree to disagree.
 

Mr. Boldin

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Ive already seen analysts list it as top 5.

When you add a WR1 thats top 3 in the league thats what happens. Show me 5 WR trio's that are better.

Ok we're all getting away from the initial point. Even if I grant you the Cardinals as a "top 5 WR unit," the OP and my response is largely built around a team defining unit. Which, to me, means the elite of the elite. The best in the league.

Again, that's not to say Lamb absolutely puts us there anymore than Wirfs makes us a legitimate above average line, or Brown provides an anchor to build a quality DLine.

But our WR unit isn't along the lines of those previously mentioned stacked unit groupings who can set the tone for an entire team/season. That's the real debate here. What if it was? Now what does our team look like and how does that directly impact Kylers ability to become as good a QB as he can be in year 2, and then year 3, and on?
 

DVontel

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There’s a combined TWO 1st rounders out of all those teams mentioned btw.

(Not counting Cooks cause I don’t think he’ll be a Ram whenever the next season begins)
 

BritCard

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Ok we're all getting away from the initial point. Even if I grant you the Cardinals as a "top 5 WR unit," the OP and my response is largely built around a team defining unit. Which, to me, means the elite of the elite. The best in the league.

Again, that's not to say Lamb absolutely puts us there anymore than Wirfs makes us a legitimate above average line, or Brown provides an anchor to build a quality DLine.

But our WR unit isn't along the lines of those previously mentioned stacked unit groupings who can set the tone for an entire team/season. That's the real debate here. What if it was? Now what does our team look like and how does that directly impact Kylers ability to become as good a QB as he can be in year 2, and then year 3, and on?

Top 5 is the elite of the elite. And thats top 5 on paper anyway. This unit with Kyler and a decent O line could easily be top 1 or 2.

Everyone seems to forget that O line is part of the offense. Like all the flashy stuff isn't 100% built on that O line. That's why that Browns WR room that many were touting as the best in the league wasn't all that last year, and OBJ had his worst season. Do you want that for Nuk?

You're suggesting paying a premium price for the possibility of making a top 5 unit the top unit on paper. At the expense of all other areas of the team.

No team has ever won the SB based only only having a good QB and top WR unit. And that includes the Chiefs last year.

Even if it worked and we had the best WR unit in the league, teams would simply plan to keep the ball away from them by putting Kyler on his ass because our O line sucks. Or by keeping our D on the field and the O off it by playing possession football.

I'm honestly stunned that anyone could say "Lets make this top 5 WR unit a top 2 WR by using our 1st round pick" when literally every other room on this roster besides QB and RB is bottom 3rd in the league and we don't pick again until 72.
 

SoonerLou

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KK offence has multiple WO sets and I wouldn't be surprised if they add TE targets to Fitz.

And 1,2,3,4 leaves the impression that KM is going through this progression in that order.

In fact... it's OPEN or COVERED.

THROW BALL!
Thats a area Kyler has to improve on especially with DHOP now.


Gotta take more risks and just put it up to his playmakers. Seemed like we went away from targeting Fitz on deep passes after that first month.
 

Mr. Boldin

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Top 5 is the elite of the elite. And thats top 5 on paper anyway. This unit with Kyler and a decent O line could easily be top 1 or 2.

Again, read the OP. If you feel that way, fine. Im just replying to the initial thought process. We can agree to disagree if you think our WR/pass catchers are already in that realm.

Everyone seems to forget that O line is part of the offense. Like all the flashy stuff isn't 100% built on that O line. That's why that Browns WR room that many were touting as the best in the league wasn't all that last year, and OBJ had his worst season. Do you want that for Nuk?

You're suggesting paying a premium price for the possibility of making a top 5 unit the top unit on paper. At the expense of all other areas of the team.

I certainly DID NOT forget that. Its why I said I would love to add Wirfs is he results in an above average line. Same with Brown on the Dline. Hell if that were the case, I would gladly take either over Lamb. You are picking and choosing battles here based on 1/3 of people's posts.

Additionally, selecting a WR at 8 is not "at the expense of all other areas of the team." Yes, its our best opportunity to select the best player we can, at any position. However, one pick is not sacrificing all other positions throughout. Its sacrificing one pick towards "hopefully" stacking a position group, instead of what can be debated is a bigger need elsewhere. Which then circles back to the OP and my original post exploring what a "potentially" stacked WR/pass catching grouping would look like and how it impacts our offense and Murray's development vs. what Wirf/ect or Brown/ect on defense.

Even if it worked and we had the best WR unit in the league, teams would simply plan to keep the ball away from them by putting Kyler on his ass because our O line sucks. Or by keeping our D on the field and the O off it by playing possession football.

See, now there we go. Lets actually discuss the ramifications. It is a legitimate point, which is why I would love to select Wirfs, et al. and them develop into the Olineman we have been searching for for decades. The counter would be, would K2 be able to adapt his offense enough to offset the impact of a potentially poor line, or teams blitzing like crazy by getting the ball out quickly to Nuk, Fitz and Lamb? What do we think Murray's development looks like with Wirfs at G or RT vs. Lamb in the WR corps? I have no idea, but its an interesting contrast and belief system on how to take advantage of Murray's skills.

I'm honestly stunned that anyone could say "Lets make this top 5 WR unit a top 2 WR by using our 1st round pick" when literally every other room on this roster besides QB and RB is bottom 3rd in the league and we don't pick again until 72.

Again, read my posts. Im not, and have never, said that. Im discussing the possibility, which you seem to find difficult to comprehend, because you dont even want to consider the thought. Thats fine. But if so, lets move along and perhaps lets others debate the thought process instead.
 

BritCard

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Again, read the OP. If you feel that way, fine. Im just replying to the initial thought process. We can agree to disagree if you think our WR/pass catchers are already in that realm.



I certainly DID NOT forget that. Its why I said I would love to add Wirfs is he results in an above average line. Same with Brown on the Dline. Hell if that were the case, I would gladly take either over Lamb. You are picking and choosing battles here based on 1/3 of people's posts.

Additionally, selecting a WR at 8 is not "at the expense of all other areas of the team." Yes, its our best opportunity to select the best player we can, at any position. However, one pick is not sacrificing all other positions throughout. Its sacrificing one pick towards "hopefully" stacking a position group, instead of what can be debated is a bigger need elsewhere. Which then circles back to the OP and my original post exploring what a "potentially" stacked WR/pass catching grouping would look like and how it impacts our offense and Murray's development vs. what Wirf/ect or Brown/ect on defense.



See, now there we go. Lets actually discuss the ramifications. It is a legitimate point, which is why I would love to select Wirfs, et al. and them develop into the Olineman we have been searching for for decades. The counter would be, would K2 be able to adapt his offense enough to offset the impact of a potentially poor line, or teams blitzing like crazy by getting the ball out quickly to Nuk, Fitz and Lamb? What do we think Murray's development looks like with Wirfs at G or RT vs. Lamb in the WR corps? I have no idea, but its an interesting contrast and belief system on how to take advantage of Murray's skills.



Again, read my posts. Im not, and have never, said that. Im discussing the possibility, which you seem to find difficult to comprehend, because you dont even want to consider the thought. Thats fine. But if so, lets move along and perhaps lets others debate the thought process instead.

Fair points. I should clarify my points are not aimed at you specifically. More the larger pro Lamb crowd.

One of by biggest issues with this whole thing is the Lamb fanaticism. If it was more a WR angle including Jeudy and Ruggs there might be some merit, not much but more.

There seems to be because Lamb caught 65 passes from Kyler they have to be reunited. Even though Jeudy is much more widely ranked WR1 and both he a Ruggs are better fits now we have Nuk.
 

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