Christian Kirk

[pinetopred]

I want Simmons or Young. Likely a pipe dream.

Likely Simmons possibly, may fall due to position fit I doubt it, Young not a snowball's chance in hell even if we were drafting in the top 5 he is going top 2 teams dont pass on can't miss guys Young is the best edge player I've seen in years JMO

 

[Vacard]

Likely Simmons possibly, may fall due to position fit I doubt it, Young not a snowball's chance in hell even if we were drafting in the top 5 he is going top 2 teams dont pass on can't miss guys Young is the best edge player I've seen in years JMO

Better than Clowney and Bosa?

 

[BritCard]

Not even a question? I found that to be a bold claim, so i looked into all of your listed guys a bit and made my own ranking. Note that some of the guys you list are #3 at best on their teams going into 2020:

Curtis Samuel (CAR) behind DJ Moore, Robby Anderson
Adam Humphries (TEN) behind AJ Brown, Corey Davis
Marqise Lee (JAC) behind DJ Chark, Dede Westbrook, Chris Conley?
Allen Lazard (GB) behind Adams, Valdes-Scantling
Paris Campbell (IND) behind Hilton, Pascal)

Others are technically #1 WRs now:

Stefon Diggs (BUF)
Jamison Crowder (NYJ)
Will Fuller (HOU) pending an acquisition
Deebo Samuel (SF) pending an acquisition

Still i'd rank the following ahead of Kirk "without a question" based on significantly higher production the last 1-2 years:

Chris Godwin (TB)
Calvin Ridley (ATL)
Robert Woods (LAR)
Jarvis Landry (CLE)
DK Metcalf (SEA)
Mike Williams (LAC)
Robby Anderson (CAR)
Sterling Shepard (NYG)
Michael Gallup (DAL)

That would put Kirk at #10, but then consider the following "arguably" better:

Marvin Jones (DET) - entering his 9th year, also a bit injury prone, but had more yards per game and WAY more TDs than Kirk

DeSean Jackson (PHI) (!) - entering his 13th year, injury prone, but had WAY more yards per game and TDs than Kirk - surely will be relegated to #3 by an acquisition

Cole Beasley (BUF) - entering his 9th year, comparable stats to Kirk, though he accumulated them as a #1 WR last season

Tyler Boyd (CIN) - inconsistent, but had WAY more yards and TDs than Kirk, though he was effectively a #1 much of the last two seasons

Preston Williams (MIA) - only played 8 games, but had similar yards/game and more TDs/game than Kirk

If you rank a couple of those guys ahead of Kirk, he's still top-15 for a #2, not bad.

I thought the following guys were close, but probably behind Kirk:

Sammy Watkins (KC) - similar stats, but on a much better team
Kenny Stills (HOU) - the new #2, racked up similar stats to Kirk playing as a #2/#3
Breshad Perriman (NYJ) - the new #2, racked up decent stats as a #3
Dede Westbrook (JAC)
Corey Davis (TEN)

The rest are clearly well behind Kirk.

Bottom line: I'd say there's "no question" Kirk's in the top half of the league, and if you argue he's top 10 i won't argue against you, but it's borderline.

...dave

My WR2 list is based off last year seeing as next year is far from final. My list is all the actual WR2 from last year except Landry who was WR1 but we all know is behind OBJ.

Now look at all the players on your list. Many of them have 5-8 years in the league. How did they do the first 2 years in the league? How many of them had 2 QBs and 2 OCs?

He's arguably / borderline top 10 now against seasoned vets. Many of which had worst starts to thier careers than Kirk. And people rag on him like he's JJ Nelson.

So we have,

WR1: Top 3 in the league
WR2: Young 3rd year guy who's already top half in the league, maybe top 10
WR3: The best WR3 in the league

Doesnt scream "we need a top 10 WR"

 

[pinetopred]

Better than Clowney and Bosa?

Yes for me he is easley better then Clowney he was hype driven never had the production. Bosa I really like but his injury history worried me. Young has production and doesn't have injury concerns I'd take him over either guy. Von Miller is the only guy I liked as much or more coming out of college

 

[BritCard]

Yes for me he is easley better then Clowney he was hype driven never had the production. Bosa I really like but his injury history worried me. Young has production and doesn't have injury concerns I'd take him over either guy. Von Miller is the only guy I liked as much or more coming out of college

Actually I have to agree. Young is the best college edge rusher to come out of college for a good while.

 

[pinetopred]

Actually I have to agree. Young is the best college edge rusher to come out of college for a good while.

Yeah if you look at his numbers he probably had more sacks then Bosa and Clowney combined in college. Total package if he busts it will be because injury absolutely love this guy as a player

 

[BigRedRage]

I'm surprised at the hate for kirk. He is a decent #2 with potential. Anything else seems silly. Looking at stats only and funneling out anything else is fooling yourself. He has had some injuries but its the NFL.

 

[GatorAZ]

Better than Clowney and Bosa?

I know you can’t do this but if Bosa doesn’t get hurt he probably has a pass rushing season for the ages his Jr year. There was some mystery to whether his injury warranted missing the season and leaving the team which dinged his hype. I would still favor Bosa as a prospect because he was a complete DE.

 

[CardLogic]

You can take my word for it or not, because I don’t have the time. However, you could put a similar highlight reel together on any of the top 15 prospects in this year’s draft. Just try YouTube. That’s why scouts go to see players in person. You need to see all their plays, not just the ones they get right. It’s also why aggregate statistical information is so important.

This is an accurate statement; but it offers nothing about your opinion of Kirk as a player. I think Kirk is/can be a solid #2 WR, but let's be honest - like everyone else, I think the world of Fitz, that said, the Cardinals haven't had a #1 WR the last two years. . . What's your take on Kirk, Harry?

 

[CardLogic]

Better than Clowney and Bosa?

Yes, undoubtedly!

 

[Jetstream Green]

I'm surprised at the hate for kirk. He is a decent #2 with potential. Anything else seems silly. Looking at stats only and funneling out anything else is fooling yourself. He has had some injuries but its the NFL.

It's not hate but disappointment which is a totally different perspective, meaning we want to believe in him but he's been sporadic to say the least but then again some WRs have a longer maturation period as a pro... which incidentally, I would luv Isabella just to be as productive as Kirk is now lol

 

[BritCard]

It's not hate but disappointment which is a totally different perspective, meaning we want to believe in him but he's been sporadic to say the least but then again some WRs have a longer maturation period as a pro... which incidentally, I would luv Isabella just to be as productive as Kirk is now lol

Why though?

His rookie year he had one of the worst offenses of all time but still would have had 800 yards if he stayed healthy. With Wilks, McCoy and Rosen.

Seahawks fans are jerking off about Metcalf getting 900 this year with one of the league's best QBs and best HCs.

Then he has to learn a whole new scheme, new QB etc and would have had nearly 900 yards with a full slate.

His only issue is missing games. Yards wise he's had a better first 2 years than many current stars.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Why though?

His rookie year he had one of the worst offenses of all time but still would have had 800 yards if he stayed healthy. With Wilks, McCoy and Rosen.

Seahawks fans are jerking off about Metcalf getting 900 this year with one of the league's best QBs and best HCs.

Then he has to learn a whole new scheme, new QB etc and would have had nearly 900 yards with a full slate.

His only issue is missing games. Yards wise he's had a better first 2 years than many current stars.

For me, it's just the dynamic element of wishing for more impressive yards after the catch which I thought he would excel at. I think his injuries are just a result of the franchise acting with kid gloves to an extent and protecting an investment till the games really count

 

[BritCard]

For me, it's just the dynamic element of wishing for more impressive yards after the catch which I thought he would excel at. I think his injuries are just a result of the franchise acting with kid gloves to an extent and protecting an investment till the games really count

We throw bubble screens to Kirk at the LOS all the time and he's done really well battling for yards on them. It took one to the house vs Oakland last year, Kliff did it again this year and Kirk always did a good job.

He's never been a big open field YAC guy. He wasn't in college. He was pretty much exactly the player he has been for us.

Anyone expecting him to be some 1300 yard a year guy is going to be disappointed. He only broke 1000 yards once in 3 years of college. But he's a solid WR2. Will get you 800-900 yards a year consistently.

 

[BigRedRage]

It's not hate but disappointment which is a totally different perspective, meaning we want to believe in him but he's been sporadic to say the least but then again some WRs have a longer maturation period as a pro... which incidentally, I would luv Isabella just to be as productive as Kirk is now lol

Many picks flame out. He has started and done well over two years minus some injuries. I have no disappointment. I didnt expect him to be a #1.

 

[Harry]

This is an accurate statement; but it offers nothing about your opinion of Kirk as a player. I think Kirk is/can be a solid #2 WR, but let's be honest - like everyone else, I think the world of Fitz, that said, the Cardinals haven't had a #1 WR the last two years. . . What's your take on Kirk, Harry?

He’s ordinary. I don’t hate him as one poster surmised, I just think what you’ve seen is what he has to offer. In my mind it’s hard to number receivers. Take Fitz. He was a number one. He’s still the guy when you need a catch to keep a drive going. Now they have Hopkins. That was a solid get, no doubt. There is a little evidence that maybe he’s peaked. Can he sustain this peak? Few receivers do. One thing is certain; the more quality receivers you surround him with the better he’ll be. Hopkins is a clear number one, but with better supporting receivers he could be dominant if not unstoppable. If I had to number Kirk I’d say he’s a 3 or a 4. He lacks top end game speed. He’s a decent but not special route runner. He has concentration lapses reflected in unfocused hands and routes. He’s only mediocre against press coverage. I wouldn’t cut him, but I wouldn’t consider him a top target.

In this draft, I’m on record as preferring Simmons, but if he’s gone I’d take Lamb. That would mean in some sets Kirk would be covered by a dime corner or a safety. In that event Kirk should be a solid performer. This offense would benefit immensely from 4 solid receivers. I’m not convinced the Cards feel they have that 4th receiver in house.

 

[TheCardFan]

Agreed. Kirk is a good #3 WR or a very good #4.

 

[BritCard]

Agreed. Kirk is a good #3 WR or a very good #4.

I just showed in this thread how he's better than many current WR2's.

 

[Harry]

I thought Daves response to your post made that more of an assertion than a proven fact. However, the point is that it’s all relevant to the head coach’s philosophy. The Cards picked KK to win with offense. Defensive oriented teams and those focusing on a running attack or even some balanced attacks may use their TEs more than a #2 receiver. That doesn’t make Kirk better. Throwing out numbers is not proof but is admittedly worth considering. I considered it and decided I disagreed. We can toss this back and forth ad infinitum. Only what Kirk does this season and how he’s used will provide a definitive answer.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I just showed in this thread how he's better than many current WR2's.

I have no idea what you are looking at. His numbers are beyond ordinary. He is in the lower WR 3 area when it comes to yards before the catch, yards after the catch, catch rate ect.

#89 in yards per reception
#88 in yards per target
#61 in seperation
#75 in drop rate

It just keeps going. There is a reason he was relegated to WR 3/4 for the last 3 games because he couldn't outperform Byrd.

Add to it missing a 1/4 of the season Kirk is fools gold as a #2 AND his contract is up in two years so either you have to pay him next year like a real #2 or he continues to struggle and you are drafting a #2 next year.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Kirk's last 3 games

11 catches on 20 targets for for 93 yards. 4.65 yards per target.

Stop it with this "He is a better #2 than most teams"

 

[Solar7]

Kirk's last 3 games

11 catches on 20 targets for for 93 yards. 4.65 yards per target.

Stop it with this "He is a better #2 than most teams"

But hurt and dealing with a nagging injury into the end of the season. You have to place context on it.

 

[GatorAZ]

It works both ways. Kirk’s first two years were with rookie QB’s and bad OL. I remember him getting open and having some big drops. We’ll know more after next season.

 

[Jetstream Green]

At this point, I doubt any opposing defense puts an emphasis on containing Kirk. That is the only validation worth having, but hopefully in year three he hits his stride as most WRs

 

[GuernseyCard]

At this point, I doubt any opposing defense puts an emphasis on containing Kirk. That is the only validation worth having, but hopefully in year three he hits his stride as most WRs

Hopkins - CeeDee - Fitzgerald - Kirk

All he has to do is hang on to the ball.