Now Greedo DOESN'T shoot first....

Brian in Mesa

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Mike Verta... :jedi:

He is behind the 3D translation of the newly designed Superman "shield" and comments about it and many other things in this interview: Mike Verta

Here's the last question:

SHH!: One Star Wars fan to another, who shot first Han or Greedo?

Mike Verta: For the answer to these and other riveting questions, check out my site at: Star Wars Legacy But for the record, Han not only shot first, but he shot Greedo in the balls.

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy
 

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Brian in Mesa said:
Mike Verta: For the answer to these and other riveting questions, check out my site at: Star Wars Legacy But for the record, Han not only shot first, but he shot Greedo in the balls.


This guy is great. Here is an editorial from his website.
The computer effects in Matrix:Reloaded, Blade II, Spiderman, and others really tend to bug me. He does a great job here of explaining why. This also points out why many of the added effects in the SW: OT look out of place.



CG and the Suspension of Disbelief

There's an important term in filmmaking: "suspension of disbelief." It was first coined in 1817, and it refers to an audience's willingness to accept, say, laserbeams and lightspeed, for the purposes of "going along for the ride," emotionally.

As good as the human eye is for spotting artificiality, we're more than willing to stay in this suspension so long as nothing enters the frame which destroys it. Without this suspension, we couldn't watch cartoons, where nothing is real. But you could never mix the stylized world of cartoons with actual real photographic imagery and convince a viewer they were one in the same. You can do things like Who Framed Roger Rabbit, where such elements co-exist, but you can't convince the eye that they're of the same nature.

There was no CG in 1977 when Star Wars was filmed. Just photography. There was primitive bluescreen photography, and miniature photography, but it was all photography of real objects. The CG insertions into Star Wars don't blend with the look of the original photography, so they destroy the suspension of disbelief. Your eye immediately recognizes the new elements as being out of the relative reality you've been experiencing... and this takes you out of the drama.

Some of it is the nature of the beast: photoreal CG extremely difficult to attain. It used to be a visual effects-person's nightmare to hear, "Looks fake." Today however, with sometimes 2000 visual effects shots to be produced in a few months' time, there's no way to give every shot the time and resources necessary to really get it right. So gradually, audiences are being trained to accept a lower and lower standard of believability, to the point where today, people actually say, "Good effects," in praise, not realizing that once, you weren't supposed to notice; you were supposed to be engaged in the story. You were supposed to remain in the suspension.

I remember the ad campaign for the first Superman movie: "You will believe a man can fly."

The filmmakers realized that this was the key to the movie; this was the core of the suspension of disbelief. And dramatically, if you bought it, then you were in for a ride. By today's standards, the effect doesn't hold up, but it did then, and audiences ate it up. Today's superhero movie is Spiderman. Spiderman never bothers saying, "You will believe a man can swing from webbing," because the CG is entirely unconvincing. Filmmakers learned to put a spin on this in the last 10 years or so saying, "it's stylized... it's a comic book come to life..." Let me tell you, visual effects people never wanted to have excuses made for their work. It was always supposed to look real. But you can't make it look real when you've got 2000 shots to do, trust me on this. It's getting easier, though - movie after movie with substandard effects are training people not to know the difference anymore. Spiderman didn't make any shortage of money, did it? And nobody cares that it's not Tobey Maquire swinging on the web. Nobody cares that it isn't even a real person swinging, or a real city he's swinging in. But imagine if they did! Imagine if you actually believed a dude jumped off a skyscraper. Now that's suspension of disbelief. I consider it a missed opportunity.

All that being said, creating photoreal CG that blends with photography is possible, it just wasn't done in this case. And more to the point, it didn't need to be. More on this here.

As an aside, when people tell me Spiderman is a great movie, I ask them if Raiders of the Lost Ark was a great movie. They say, "YES!" I say, "Sing me the theme to Raiders." They always can. Then I say, "Sing me the theme to Spiderman." They can't. $100 million-dollar-plus movie, and not one person, musicians included, can get a note out. Then I ask them to imagine Raiders without the music. Unthinkable, right? Things have gotten so bleak out there that you can take away a good musical score, easily responsible for 70% of the drama in a movie (you can argue this, but you'd be wrong), and people still love it. It's sort of like giving people a choice between eating a bowl of wood chippings and a bowl of gruel. If it's all they've got to eat, they'll eat the gruel every time; that doesn't mean gruel is good. That's Spiderman: a bowl of gruel in a world of woodchippings. (I'm a professional, don't try these analogies at home.) Plus, Tobey Maquire's no Harrison Ford. Nevermind, go back to sleep...
 

Covert Rain

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I never understood this stupid argument. I don't care who shot first.

I have never been able to get past that a great smuggler like Han would be so stupid to walk into the lions den (you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy). You know...the type of place that will guarantee you be caught by a bounty hunter or someone looking to make a fast money. Oh...and that's on top of the fact that you chose to go to that type of place on the very planet run by the gangster who put the bounty on your head to begin with.

Not to mention Han is so smart to not only be there in the first place but he let Greedo sneak up on him and get the drop on him with a weapon. You would think that even if you could get past the stupidity of him being there in the first place, you would be extra alert about your surroundings. Not to mention you have an extra set of eyes with Chewie watching your back and you didn't see him come in before Chewie takes off?

Out of all of the things wrong with that scene and character decisions people are complaining about who shot first?!?!

P.S. This is coming from huge Star Wars fan to boot.
 
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BigRedRage

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I never understood this stupid argument. I don't care who shot first.

I have never been able to get past that a great smuggler like Han would be so stupid to walk into the lions den (you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy). You know...the type of place that will guarantee you be caught by a bounty hunter or someone looking to make a fast money. Oh...and that's on top of the fact that you chose to go to that type of place on the very planet run by the gangster who put the bounty on your head to begin with.

Not to mention Han is so smart to not only be there in the first place but he let Greedo sneak up on him and get the drop on him with a weapon. You would think that even if you could get past the stupidity of him being there in the first place, you would be extra alert about your surroundings. Not to mention you have an extra set of eyes with Chewie watching your back and you didn't see him come in before Chewie takes off?

Out of all of the things wrong with that scene and character decisions people are complaining about who shot first?!?!

P.S. This is coming from huge Star Wars fan to boot.

Doesnt it all just come back to lucas wanting to change it to han not shooting first?
 

Covert Rain

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Doesnt it all just come back to lucas wanting to change it to han not shooting first?

I think that is basically what it is about. People bitching about Lucas changing his work. However, if you listen to the endless debates people debate how it changes the character, the dynamic of the scene blah blah. I have read countless exchanges on the Star Wars forums that make it out to be something that changes Star Wars forever.

I think at the end of they day people were just looking for another reason to complain about the changes (some of which are good and some bad).
 

Stout

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I think that is basically what it is about. People bitching about Lucas changing his work. However, if you listen to the endless debates people debate how it changes the character, the dynamic of the scene blah blah. I have read countless exchanges on the Star Wars forums that make it out to be something that changes Star Wars forever.

I think at the end of they day people were just looking for another reason to complain about the changes (some of which are good and some bad).

Han firing first paints him as a dastardly man, a true rogue with little to like about him. It makes his arc that much better in the long run. I get that you have a different viewpoint about it, but I don't at all think there's a basis for saying people just want to complain.
 

Covert Rain

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Han firing first paints him as a dastardly man, a true rogue with little to like about him. It makes his arc that much better in the long run. I get that you have a different viewpoint about it, but I don't at all think there's a basis for saying people just want to complain.


The point is I don't have a viewpoint on it either way. It's such an inconsequential thing when you think about that entire scene. I don't care if they change it back or keep the changes.
 

Stout

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The point is I don't have a viewpoint on it either way. It's such an inconsequential thing when you think about that entire scene. I don't care if they change it back or keep the changes.

And I disagree. Which is cool, but your initial point was projecting that others were merely searching for more to complain about. In this, I disagree, too.
 

Covert Rain

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And I disagree. Which is cool, but your initial point was projecting that others were merely searching for more to complain about. In this, I disagree, too.


That's not what I meant. I mean people in general were upset with changes and that was one of them. I am not sure had that been the only change ever made it would have been that big a deal but I could be completely wrong about that. It just seems silly to me.
 

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Look, I would have preferred that they kept it as it was, but I have more problems with the CGI Jabba in IV and Vader's "Nooooooo!" As he picked up the Emperor in VI.
 

Covert Rain

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Look, I would have preferred that they kept it as it was, but I have more problems with the CGI Jabba in IV and Vader's "Nooooooo!" As he picked up the Emperor in VI.


I loved the scene with Jabba. My older brother attended a prescreen of the original movie and told me that scene was there (although Jabba was a human). I love they added back the scene but the CGI wasn't that great. They could fix that.

The music scene in Jabba's palace was dumb. That sucked.

The updated FX were great though. Loved most of that stuff.
 

Brian in Mesa

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Missed this ridiculous addition to the story from November...

The Han Shot First Scene From Star Wars Has Been Changed Again on Disney+

https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-han-shot-first-scene-from-star-wars-has-been-change-1839802913


The Han and Greedo cantina scene is, famously, the most fluid in Star Wars history. As we all know, in the original theatrical cut, Han shot first. Then in the 1997 Special Editions, Greedo shot first, sparking one of the most furious debates in the entire franchise. Years later, in new DVD releases, the scene was changed again, with the blaster shots coming almost simultaneously and Han’s head being digitally altered as if to dodge away from Greedo’s shot. And now, as if it’s become a joke, the version that lives on Disney’s new streaming service, Disney+, has yet another change. And you have to see it to believe it.

How...? Who...? How is this something someone decided to do? I can’t even make a clear thought about this. pic.twitter.com/buC5ptGQ7S

— Mike Ryan (@mikeryan) November 12, 2019

Yes, Greedo screams something in Rodese—the Rodian language, which itself has similarities to the Huttese spoken by Jabba and other alien characters in the trilogy—that sounds like “Makunke!” or “Maclunky!” before shooting now, as if to warn Han what’s about to come. No one ever talked after Han said, “I bet you have” before.

The question you’re asking is “Why?” And we don’t know. What we do know is “How.” According to Vanity Fair, and confirmed by io9 via Lucasfilm, George Lucas himself made this change “at least seven years ago” before Disney acquired the company. In that timeframe, we believe that change was made when the director converted the film to 4K for a planned 3D release which never happened. But, the 4K version remained, with this change, and now that’s the one on Disney+.

-----------------------------------------------------

Here's the article which was referenced in the last paragraph.

George Lucas Himself Gave Greedo the Last Word in Controversial New Star Wars Edit

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/11/greedo-han-solo-star-wars-edit


Disney+ features yet another recut version of the scene between Han Solo and the bounty hunter from the 1977 film.

 

puckhead

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Missed this ridiculous addition to the story from November...

The Han Shot First Scene From Star Wars Has Been Changed Again on Disney+

https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-han-shot-first-scene-from-star-wars-has-been-change-1839802913


The Han and Greedo cantina scene is, famously, the most fluid in Star Wars history. As we all know, in the original theatrical cut, Han shot first. Then in the 1997 Special Editions, Greedo shot first, sparking one of the most furious debates in the entire franchise. Years later, in new DVD releases, the scene was changed again, with the blaster shots coming almost simultaneously and Han’s head being digitally altered as if to dodge away from Greedo’s shot. And now, as if it’s become a joke, the version that lives on Disney’s new streaming service, Disney+, has yet another change. And you have to see it to believe it.

How...? Who...? How is this something someone decided to do? I can’t even make a clear thought about this. pic.twitter.com/buC5ptGQ7S

— Mike Ryan (@mikeryan) November 12, 2019

Yes, Greedo screams something in Rodese—the Rodian language, which itself has similarities to the Huttese spoken by Jabba and other alien characters in the trilogy—that sounds like “Makunke!” or “Maclunky!” before shooting now, as if to warn Han what’s about to come. No one ever talked after Han said, “I bet you have” before.

The question you’re asking is “Why?” And we don’t know. What we do know is “How.” According to Vanity Fair, and confirmed by io9 via Lucasfilm, George Lucas himself made this change “at least seven years ago” before Disney acquired the company. In that timeframe, we believe that change was made when the director converted the film to 4K for a planned 3D release which never happened. But, the 4K version remained, with this change, and now that’s the one on Disney+.

-----------------------------------------------------

Here's the article which was referenced in the last paragraph.

George Lucas Himself Gave Greedo the Last Word in Controversial New Star Wars Edit

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/11/greedo-han-solo-star-wars-edit

Disney+ features yet another recut version of the scene between Han Solo and the bounty hunter from the 1977 film.

:facepalm:
 

Covert Rain

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Missed this ridiculous addition to the story from November...

The Han Shot First Scene From Star Wars Has Been Changed Again on Disney+

https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-han-shot-first-scene-from-star-wars-has-been-change-1839802913


The Han and Greedo cantina scene is, famously, the most fluid in Star Wars history. As we all know, in the original theatrical cut, Han shot first. Then in the 1997 Special Editions, Greedo shot first, sparking one of the most furious debates in the entire franchise. Years later, in new DVD releases, the scene was changed again, with the blaster shots coming almost simultaneously and Han’s head being digitally altered as if to dodge away from Greedo’s shot. And now, as if it’s become a joke, the version that lives on Disney’s new streaming service, Disney+, has yet another change. And you have to see it to believe it.

How...? Who...? How is this something someone decided to do? I can’t even make a clear thought about this. pic.twitter.com/buC5ptGQ7S

— Mike Ryan (@mikeryan) November 12, 2019

Yes, Greedo screams something in Rodese—the Rodian language, which itself has similarities to the Huttese spoken by Jabba and other alien characters in the trilogy—that sounds like “Makunke!” or “Maclunky!” before shooting now, as if to warn Han what’s about to come. No one ever talked after Han said, “I bet you have” before.

The question you’re asking is “Why?” And we don’t know. What we do know is “How.” According to Vanity Fair, and confirmed by io9 via Lucasfilm, George Lucas himself made this change “at least seven years ago” before Disney acquired the company. In that timeframe, we believe that change was made when the director converted the film to 4K for a planned 3D release which never happened. But, the 4K version remained, with this change, and now that’s the one on Disney+.

-----------------------------------------------------

Here's the article which was referenced in the last paragraph.

George Lucas Himself Gave Greedo the Last Word in Controversial New Star Wars Edit

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/11/greedo-han-solo-star-wars-edit

Disney+ features yet another recut version of the scene between Han Solo and the bounty hunter from the 1977 film.

Most overblown Star Wars controversy EVER.
 

Brian in Mesa

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Most overblown Star Wars controversy EVER.

In your opinion. The original scene was perfect and added greatly to the entire character arc of Han Solo. To want to make any changes to it makes zero sense at all. Makes me question Lucas' understanding of character development and how integral a scene like this is in the process.
 

Covert Rain

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In your opinion. The original scene was perfect and added greatly to the entire character arc of Han Solo. To want to make any changes to it makes zero sense at all. Makes me question Lucas' understanding of character development and how integral a scene like this is in the process.

Not just my opinion. That's why it's one of the most debated things in the verse. The very idea that it makes no sense for Han being the character that he is to let Greedo get the drop on him, get off a shot first yet is so oblivious that Greedo manages to enter the cantina (just like the Storm Troopers) owned by the gangster who put a price on your head (dumb to be there), is full of bounty hunters, full of criminals, gets the drop on him so bad he surprises Han, let alone gets so damn close to him that manages to take a seat next to him to begin with is so hilariously ironic in terms of the argument for that scene.

It's so dumb. It doesn't change who Han is one iota either way. That character is a summation of his entire character not just one scene. I really don't care where that scene FINALLY ends up to be honest. It's so overblown.
 
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Brian in Mesa

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I have never been able to get past that a great smuggler like Han would be so stupid to walk into the lions den (you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy).

Well, Mos Eisley, first and foremost, is a spaceport. Where else would you expect to find a smuggler? :shrug:

From the Star Wars archives: The famously lawless port on the surface of Tatooine was home to Hutt servants, rogues and smugglers of all species, lowlifes and fugitives, and desperate people trying to make a living any way they could.

Han being there makes perfect sense.
 

cwamjn

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It absolutely changes who Han is and never should have been meddled with in the first place. After episode IX though I realized that I'm no longer Disney's Target audience for star wars and they couldn't care less what I think though.
 

Covert Rain

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Well, Mos Eisley, first and foremost, is a spaceport. Where else would you expect to find a smuggler? :shrug:

From the Star Wars archives: The famously lawless port on the surface of Tatooine was home to Hutt servants, rogues and smugglers of all species, lowlifes and fugitives, and desperate people trying to make a living any way they could.

Han being there makes perfect sense.

Key word "space port". Let's use some common logic. Gangster puts bounty on your head. The smartest and most obvious thing to do is ....wait.....frequent his establishment where his employees would report you were there in a nanosecond, where every bounty hunter he has hired to get your head is probably going to be at. Then buy the idea that Han is too smart to let Greedo shoot first but at the same time so inept that not only does Greedo walk up to him unnoticed but pulls up a chair like they are best friends.

Makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

Much Ado about Nothing

Exactly.

By the way..... to be clear.....I am not advocating for any version to be "final". Just that it's overblown and ultimately doesn't matter.
 
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Stout

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There's never been a real debate. There are those who somehow think changing the original makes sense, and there are those who are correct. No real debate about it.
 

Chaplin

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There's never been a real debate. There are those who somehow think changing the original makes sense, and there are those who are correct. No real debate about it.
Wrong. There are those that don’t care either way.
 
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