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TheCardFan

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Wait -- Bobby Massie is good! I'd kill to have kept Bobby Massie.

He was about as good with the Cardinals (stat-wise) as Justin Murray was this year. He got slightly better with the Bears and had a career year in 2018 (still no pro bowls though).

2019 PFF grades - both have ~63 (Humphries is a 64.5).

FWIW - Joe Barksdale (RT 2018) didn't' give up a sack in his last 20 games played.

Don't forget, when Massie left in 2016, we had Veldheer at LT and 2nd year player Humphries at RT.

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BritCard

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He was about as good with the Cardinals (stat wise) as Justin Murray was this year. He got slightly better with the Bears and had a career year in 2018 (still no pro bowls though).

2019 PFF grades - both have ~63 (Humphries is a 64.5).

FWIW - Joe Barksdale (RT 2018) didn't' give up a sack in his last 20 games played.

Don't forget, when Massie left in 2016, we had Veldheer at LT and 2nd year player Humphries at RT.

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Barksdale had no sacks in 20 games? He must be elite. Let's give him 15m a year.

I don't understand the Justin Murray dislike. I thought after his first 4-5 games where he was adjusting he did really well.

If he was a rookie (which he essentially was) I think fans would be pegging him the long term right tackle. He's only 26.

Can I ask where the stats are from? They have Murray with 6 sacks but PFF only has 4.
 

Dr. Jones

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Like what would happen if Hump left....... Massie left the Cards and entered THE PRIME of his career. You don't let those guys go.
 

Solar7

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Barksdale had no sacks in 20 games? He must be elite. Let's give him 15m a year.

I don't understand the Justin Murray dislike. I thought after his first 4-5 games where he was adjusting he did really well.

If he was a rookie (which he essentially was) I think fans would be pegging him the long term right tackle. He's only 26.

Can I ask where the stats are from? They have Murray with 6 sacks but PFF only has 4.
The Justin Murray dislike has something to do with the fact he's been on 6 different teams and we only started him out of desperation/an idiotic move from Keim. Just watching him play, you can tell he doesn't have the physical ability to stand out.

I'm fine with bringing him back on a low tender, but let's not pretend he is part of a solution. He's a band-aid at best.

(Also, I don't know why, I felt really bad writing this about someone I don't know who is probably just a decent person trying to make his NFL dream come true. I must be extra sappy this morning.)
 

kerouac9

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He was about as good with the Cardinals (stat-wise) as Justin Murray was this year. He got slightly better with the Bears and had a career year in 2018 (still no pro bowls though).

Don't forget, when Massie left in 2016, we had Veldheer at LT and 2nd year player Humphries at RT.

If you think I’m gonna be swayed by PFF grades, I don’t know what to tell you. Massie was a fine professional lineman who has played solid football for the Bears. You can win with him as the third or fourth best guy on your line.

We let a professional lineman who had been very healthy leave for a draft pick who was a healthy inactive for 16 games. When Hump came in at RT, he was disastrous before he got injured. He never had to compete for a job, and when Veldheer also got injured, our line was a shambles.

I don't understand the Justin Murray dislike. I thought after his first 4-5 games where he was adjusting he did really well.

If he was a rookie (which he essentially was) I think fans would be pegging him the long term right tackle. He's only 26.

Because we watch games? Justin Murray was clearly the worst player on the 2019 offensive line, which is why we want to replace him. It’s not his fault; he was acquired to be a backup. We want to make him a backup again.

I’m mystified that you’re confused about it.
 

BritCard

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If you think I’m gonna be swayed by PFF grades, I don’t know what to tell you. Massie was a fine professional lineman who has played solid football for the Bears. You can win with him as the third or fourth best guy on your line.

We let a professional lineman who had been very healthy leave for a draft pick who was a healthy inactive for 16 games. When Hump came in at RT, he was disastrous before he got injured. He never had to compete for a job, and when Veldheer also got injured, our line was a shambles.



Because we watch games? Justin Murray was clearly the worst player on the 2019 offensive line, which is why we want to replace him. It’s not his fault; he was acquired to be a backup. We want to make him a backup again.

I’m mystified that you’re confused about it.

I don't see why it matters how many teams he has been on. Our starting center is a career PS / backup until he came here.

The kid was starting his first career games and did a decent job. I have people telling me Hump is good because he gave up 2 sacks but Murray isnt good enough with 4.

FYI in Humps first year he gave up 9 sacks in 13 games and in 18 gave up 4 in 9.

He got better as the year went on. Started shaky as you would expect but got much better. I'm not saying he was super but he showed promise for his first starts.
 

TheCardFan

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We let a professional lineman who had been very healthy leave for a draft pick who was a healthy inactive for 16 games. When Hump came in at RT, he was disastrous before he got injured. He never had to compete for a job, and when Veldheer also got injured, our line was a shambles.

Veldheer was in his 3rd year of a 5 year/35m deal and was our best OL.
Humphries was our #1 pick the year before and played zero games as you mentioned.

What would we have done with Massie (who got 6m/year from Bears)?

You can argue that we shouldn't have drafted DJ...I still feel that way today but its not like there wasn't a plan by Keim.

Injuries destroyed that plan.
 

daves

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Keim every year thinking he has a team that can win goes out and blows his wad on X, Y and Z on short term deals, or coming off a bad injury with no thought to the long term future. Guys like Gilbert ($6m burned), Crabtree ($3m burned), Alford ($6m burned), Rosen, Gresham, Suggs, Swears, Bradford, Iupati, Glennon, Philon, Bethea etc

In total $72m of cap space didn't see the field this year.

While other teams have 3-4 year plans Keim is operating year to year. Saddling us with more bad deals for bad players, more dead money and more backloading that restricts what we can do the next year. Rince and repeat.

NOT to make excuses for Keim's results for the last several seasons... but he has said in the past that he plans everything with a 3-4 year horizon in mind. I think that went out the window trying to squeeze one more playoff season out of Arians and Palmer, then got obliterated with the failed Wilks regime and his unexpected switch to the 4-3, then another re-start with Kingsbury.

Of your examples, the Gresham, Suggs, and Bradford contracts were indeed awful.

But The Rosen pick made sense in the context of trying to start rebuilding under Wilks and is certainly not an example of not giving thought to the future. And Alford, Swearinger, and Philon were reasonably-priced deals for guys who figured to be in the plans for multiple years, so i don't think they support your argument. Of those three, only Alford had any injury history, and even he started all 16 games with his injury in 2018.

I'm not sure how Iupati figures into your argument - he was signed to a good contract for a Pro-Bowl level player ($8M per for 5 years), then renegotiated to $5M in 2018, then let go with $3.7M in dead money after becoming too injury-prone. It happens.

Bottom line... HOPEFULLY Keim is now back to planning for a 3-4 year horizon around Kingsbury and Murray.

...dave
 

BritCard

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NOT to make excuses for Keim's results for the last several seasons... but he has said in the past that he plans everything with a 3-4 year horizon in mind. I think that went out the window trying to squeeze one more playoff season out of Arians and Palmer, then got obliterated with the failed Wilks regime and his unexpected switch to the 4-3, then another re-start with Kingsbury.

Of your examples, the Gresham, Suggs, and Bradford contracts were indeed awful.

But The Rosen pick made sense in the context of trying to start rebuilding under Wilks and is certainly not an example of not giving thought to the future. And Alford, Swearinger, and Philon were reasonably-priced deals for guys who figured to be in the plans for multiple years, so i don't think they support your argument. Of those three, only Alford had any injury history, and even he started all 16 games with his injury in 2018.

I'm not sure how Iupati figures into your argument - he was signed to a good contract for a Pro-Bowl level player ($8M per for 5 years), then renegotiated to $5M in 2018, then let go with $3.7M in dead money after becoming too injury-prone. It happens.

Bottom line... HOPEFULLY Keim is now back to planning for a 3-4 year horizon around Kingsbury and Murray.

...dave

Iupati fits in because we ate 3m in dead money this year.

Every year Keim say "it's not a rebuild but a retool" or that he thinks we have a good roster and can make the play offs. I've never once heard him say anything resembling "we have to temper expectations and rebuild for next year" etc etc

Last off season he and Bidwill were saying they wanted to make a hot start so they could flex into some of the late season prime time slots. With a rookie HC, rookie QB and complete new staff.

They often seem pretty deluded about the status of the roster to me.
 

daves

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Iupati fits in because we ate 3m in dead money this year.
Yeah Iupati's 5-year deal averaging $8M/year was NOT an example of "Keim every year thinking he has a team that can win goes out and blows his wad on X, Y and Z on short term deals, or coming off a bad injury with no thought to the long term future."

...dbs
 

kerouac9

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Veldheer was in his 3rd year of a 5 year/35m deal and was our best OL.
Humphries was our #1 pick the year before and played zero games as you mentioned.

What would we have done with Massie (who got 6m/year from Bears)?

You can argue that we shouldn't have drafted DJ...I still feel that way today but its not like there wasn't a plan by Keim.

Injuries destroyed that plan.

If we’d kept Massie, injuries would have been less of a problem. Kiem’s biggest but least remarked errors is letting the professional football players we develop leave with bad feelings and sign for peanuts elsewhere. He ends up having to use draft capital and free agent money to staunch the bleeding he creates.
 

BritCard

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Yeah Iupati's 5-year deal averaging $8M/year was NOT an example of "Keim every year thinking he has a team that can win goes out and blows his wad on X, Y and Z on short term deals, or coming off a bad injury with no thought to the long term future."

...dbs

Not every deal is bad, but the general trend is why we are where we are
 

BritCard

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If we’d kept Massie, injuries would have been less of a problem. Kiem’s biggest but least remarked errors is letting the professional football players we develop leave with bad feelings and sign for peanuts elsewhere. He ends up having to use draft capital and free agent money to staunch the bleeding he creates.

It would help if he drafted good players in the 1st place.
 

kerouac9

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It would help if he drafted good players in the 1st place.

he’s drafted tons of good players:

Tyrann Matthieu
Alex Okafor
Kevin Minter
Kareem Martin
John Brown
Evan Boehm
Marquis Christian

these are all mature players who could be good special teamers and spot players right now. Some would even start. These are just guys Keim drafted.
 

Solar7

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he’s drafted tons of good players:

Tyrann Matthieu
Alex Okafor
Kevin Minter
Kareem Martin
John Brown
Evan Boehm
Marquis Christian

these are all mature players who could be good special teamers and spot players right now. Some would even start. These are just guys Keim drafted.
All guys he chose not to retain, contributed some okay years, and are no longer here. Keim's continued to fall of a cliff with draft picks we can rely on.
 

BritCard

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he’s drafted tons of good players:

Tyrann Matthieu
Alex Okafor
Kevin Minter
Kareem Martin
John Brown
Evan Boehm
Marquis Christian

these are all mature players who could be good special teamers and spot players right now. Some would even start. These are just guys Keim drafted.

Man our definition of good needs looking at. Okafor, Minter, Martin, Boehm and Christian have been career backups and wouldn't make the top 500 players in the league.

Excluding last year he's drafted 42 players and this is the best? God help us.

The best players he has drafted are Badger and Brown who both left the Cardinals angry and after that it's Hump and DJ. One guy we desperately want to trade and the other is bottom 3rd at his position.
 

Krangodnzr

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Man our definition of good needs looking at. Okafor, Minter, Martin, Boehm and Christian have been career backups and wouldn't make the top 500 players in the league.

Excluding last year he's drafted 42 players and this is the best? God help us.

The best players he has drafted are Badger and Brown who both left the Cardinals angry and after that it's Hump and DJ. One guy we desperately want to trade and the other is bottom 3rd at his position.

Good players dont have to make the top 500.

All of the guys Kerouac listed are decent football players that fill a role on a good football team.
 

kerouac9

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You really can’t be serious

Some people get so triggered they can't even look at the context:

these are all mature players who could be good special teamers and spot players right now. Some would even start. These are just guys Keim drafted.

You can add Markus Golden to this list, who played over 80% of the Giants' snaps last year.

Kareem Martin played 55% of the Giants' snaps in 2018. Alex Okafor played 63% of the Saints snaps in 2018 and had 5 sacks in 9 games for the Chiefs before going on IR.

John Brown played 85% of the Bills' WR snaps last year, and 60%+ of the Ravens' snaps the years before.

You can think these guys suck, but there's a reason they're getting jobs around the NFL and they're earning playing time.
 

BritCard

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Good players dont have to make the top 500.

All of the guys Kerouac listed are decent football players that fill a role on a good football team.


They are all JAGS. They are no argument for Keim drafting well.
 

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80% of most teams are JAG's. You've got five or six stars. Gotta keep them around if you can.
 

TheCardFan

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There may be other variables at play here...

1) Not doing a great job of drafting (obviously)
2) Franchise that has not been consistently good = not a place most players want to be (Fitz is an exception). Easy for players to leave.
3) Other teams offer more money than the Cardinals can afford? Calais, Massie (had 2 tackles already), etc
4) Cap troubles due to dead money, signing bad players, etc?
 

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