Poll: What to do about the defense

What do you do for 2020


  • Total voters
    69

dscher

ASFN Icon
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Posts
12,864
Reaction score
7,772
Location
Mesa, AZ
DCs that primarily run zone needs to be banned. Any above-average QB will abuse it.
...and they have been. Consistently. It's painful to watch.. bend but don't break defenses have always pissed me off.
 

daves

Keepin' it real!
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2003
Posts
3,308
Reaction score
6,384
Location
Orange County, CA
...and they have been. Consistently. It's painful to watch.. bend but don't break defenses have always pissed me off.
... which is kinda ironic, given that what fans are most pissed about this week is VJ's decision to blitz, rather than play zone and "bend, but don't break". Break but don't bend defenses are great, except when they break!

...dave
 

dscher

ASFN Icon
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Posts
12,864
Reaction score
7,772
Location
Mesa, AZ
... which is kinda ironic, given that what fans are most pissed about this week is VJ's decision to blitz, rather than play zone and "bend, but don't break". Break but don't bend defenses are great, except when they break!

...dave
Agreed. But the latter shows defenses that are the aggressors and aren't reactionary..imo. That's why we all appreciated bowles led defenses imo..
 

cardpa

Have a Nice Day!
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Posts
7,312
Reaction score
3,956
Location
Monroe NC
Maybe we just have a bunch of stupid defensive players who can't execute the defense. When you see the same mistakes over and over, you really have to question the personnel. The coaches can only teach and scheme. The players are the ones who have to execute those schemes.
 

jf-08

Guy Smiley
Administrator
Super Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
26,062
Reaction score
20,247
Location
Eye in the Sky
I think you need to look at if VJ has lost his defensive players. Wilks lost the whole team if I recall correctly and he definitely needed to go.

VJ I don't know.
 

wit3card

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Posts
2,943
Reaction score
1,778
I think you need to look at if VJ has lost his defensive players. Wilks lost the whole team if I recall correctly and he definitely needed to go.

VJ I don't know.
The problem is, if your DC loses one of the good players he started to be a lame duck DC.

We need a D that is behind theire DC and that shows improvement after 5-7 games and doesn't stay on the level.
 

GatorAZ

feed hopkins
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Posts
24,258
Reaction score
16,396
Location
The Giant Toaster
Maybe we just have a bunch of stupid defensive players who can't execute the defense. When you see the same mistakes over and over, you really have to question the personnel. The coaches can only teach and scheme. The players are the ones who have to execute those schemes.

They’re not being taught the right way... Lamar Jackson got a 13 on the wonderlic, plays the most mentally demanding position in sports and is the front runner for MVP at 22 years old. These last 5 games are everything for Vance.
 

DeAnna

Just A Face in The Crowd
Joined
Jun 13, 2002
Posts
7,267
Reaction score
735
Location
Goodyear, AZ
Maybe we just have a bunch of stupid defensive players who can't execute the defense. When you see the same mistakes over and over, you really have to question the personnel. The coaches can only teach and scheme. The players are the ones who have to execute those schemes.

True - and in that vein, they first player they should part ways with is HR#43. Get a linebacker who can cover, please.
 

Outerlimits

Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Posts
372
Reaction score
842
Location
Richmond Virginia
I'd fire him. The defense is probably as bad as last year, if not worse.

The talent isnt good, but they could be playing significantly better than they are. Calling a cover zero at that time was inexcusable. Let them kick the damn FG and send it to overtime, but you cant let them score a TD.

Too often Joseph just hasn't seemed to have the right playcall at the right time. Guys are out of position too often.

It is worse than last year. Which is why we have a terrible record despite significant improvement on offense.

However, whether Vance or Keim deserves more of the blame is where I'm unsure. The talent isn't good, but some of the defensive playcalling has been trash as well.
 

unseenaz

ASFN Addict
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Posts
6,529
Reaction score
4,938
Location
Gilbert
why is more leadership turnover the answer? give vance something to work with on defense, then reevaluate. changing the DC again isn't the solution.
 

b8rtm8nn

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Jan 14, 2003
Posts
3,365
Reaction score
1,641
Location
Tucson
I don't think Vance is going to be anything but average, even with a very good roster, but I can see the value of holding onto him while you build up the defense if he is good at identifying the talent needed at each position. (I wouldn't keep him, but I'm not Kliff)

The 49ers were 26th, 23rd and now 2nd in DVOA under Saleh - so it's possible.

Bowles has a WORSE passing defense than we do, and I would toss Joseph aside for Bowles in a second.

Bettcher also has a worse passing defense in NY, and he had our unit running at 3rd and 4th in DVOA his last two years with us.

Results like those show how difficult it can be to turn around a defense quickly, and how quickly things can so south.
 

juza76

ASFN Icon
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Posts
13,672
Reaction score
9,384
Location
milan-italy
I don't think Vance is going to be anything but average, even with a very good roster, but I can see the value of holding onto him while you build up the defense if he is good at identifying the talent needed at each position. (I wouldn't keep him, but I'm not Kliff)

The 49ers were 26th, 23rd and now 2nd in DVOA under Saleh - so it's possible.

Bowles has a WORSE passing defense than we do, and I would toss Joseph aside for Bowles in a second.

Bettcher also has a worse passing defense in NY, and he had our unit running at 3rd and 4th in DVOA his last two years with us.

Results like those show how difficult it can be to turn around a defense quickly, and how quickly things can so south.

We have been the worst defense last year and this year too
And proviously with bettcher started the decline
Coaches has been changed, results are the same
The personnel is the reason we sucks
This defense is a mix of mediocre players and overrated players
 

Outerlimits

Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Posts
372
Reaction score
842
Location
Richmond Virginia
We have been the worst defense last year and this year too
And proviously with bettcher started the decline
Coaches has been changed, results are the same
The personnel is the reason we sucks
This defense is a mix of mediocre players and overrated players

Well, the defense last year was often put in terrible field position and time of possession by our historically bad offense. This year, the offense is actually managing drives, scoring points, and Kyler commits few turnovers. Yet, the defense often gives up huge scoring drives and rarely helps out the offense.

The offense still makes some mistakes but is miles ahead of the defense. With even a mediocre defense, we would likely be in the thick of the wild card hunt. Instead we have 3 wins so far.
 

RON_IN_OC

https://www.ronevansrealty.com
Joined
Mar 10, 2004
Posts
25,486
Reaction score
31,942
Location
BirdGangThing
I'd take Cleveland's DC...just sayin'...


People are posting that if Cards D was just middle of the road, they'd be 6-4ish and in playoff hunt....well Cleveland ranks #16 in total defense...middle of the road.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

Dr. Jones

Has No Time For Love
Joined
Nov 2, 2004
Posts
24,797
Reaction score
13,532
I'd take Cleveland's DC...just sayin'...


People are posting that if Cards D was just middle of the road, they'd be 6-4ish and in playoff hunt....well Cleveland ranks #16 in total defense...middle of the road.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
And move back to a 4-3? that's crazy talk man.
 

RON_IN_OC

https://www.ronevansrealty.com
Joined
Mar 10, 2004
Posts
25,486
Reaction score
31,942
Location
BirdGangThing
And move back to a 4-3? that's crazy talk man.
We were already duped to believe that they were going to run man 2 man 3-4...and they run a lot of zone.

This would be year 2 in a 4-3 zone scheme.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

RON_IN_OC

https://www.ronevansrealty.com
Joined
Mar 10, 2004
Posts
25,486
Reaction score
31,942
Location
BirdGangThing
And move back to a 4-3? that's crazy talk man.
Also, as discombobulated it looked with the 4-3 transition last year, they still ended up 20th overall...11 spots better than this year, where again they were supposed to be more suited to play.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

b8rtm8nn

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Jan 14, 2003
Posts
3,365
Reaction score
1,641
Location
Tucson
Also, as discombobulated it looked with the 4-3 transition last year, they still ended up 20th overall...11 spots better than this year, where again they were supposed to be more suited to play.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Actually - we ended up 17th in DVOA, 8th in the pass, 29th in rush; if you go by FootballOutsiders: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef/2018
 

dreamcastrocks

Chopped Liver Moderator
Super Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2005
Posts
45,668
Reaction score
10,868
I would add talent and let Kingsbury pick if he wants to keep Joseph or get his own guy. Let the head coach actually run his staff
This should be option C. I didn't vote because it was a bit to granular.
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
26,631
Reaction score
34,717
Location
Colorado
I am completely up in the air on this. It isn't that we have a bad defensive DVOA, it is that we are SO bad. We are not close to the mid range while teams like Tampa are. The Jets have a significantly better defensive DVOA. I think continuity is important, but I also think competence is also important. I get that we have bad personnel, but I struggle to imagine a world where a competent DC can't make a defense which includes Chandler Jones, Corey Peters, Jordan Hicks, and Patrick Peterson, average. I guess it depends for me on who is available. If there is an glaring upgrade available, we should take it. (and I really don't care if it is a 3-4 or 4-3...we need to bring in a ton of player regardless)
 

DVontel

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Posts
12,358
Reaction score
21,041
I am completely up in the air on this. It isn't that we have a bad defensive DVOA, it is that we are SO bad. We are not close to the mid range while teams like Tampa are. The Jets have a significantly better defensive DVOA. I think continuity is important, but I also think competence is also important. I get that we have bad personnel, but I struggle to imagine a world where a competent DC can't make a defense which includes Chandler Jones, Corey Peters, Jordan Hicks, and Patrick Peterson, average. I guess it depends for me on who is available. If there is an glaring upgrade available, we should take it. (and I really don't care if it is a 3-4 or 4-3...we need to bring in a ton of player regardless)
The problem is hiring a DC that primarily runs zone vs a DC that primarily runs man.
 

JosiahLee

Hall of Famer
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Posts
1,967
Reaction score
3,467
Location
Gilbert
They’re not being taught the right way... Lamar Jackson got a 13 on the wonderlic, plays the most mentally demanding position in sports and is the front runner for MVP at 22 years old. These last 5 games are everything for Vance.

What’s funny is I wanted Lamar but he would have been a failure here...He is what he is because of John Harbaugh and staff. It is nothing short of amazing the scheme they have developed to maximize his skill set.
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
26,631
Reaction score
34,717
Location
Colorado
The problem is hiring a DC that primarily runs zone vs a DC that primarily runs man.
I would normally agree, but I don't think it matters as much this offseason. We have so many holes to fill, regardless of the scheme we have to add guys to fill those spots. Who we target will be dependent on the scheme, but the only player we historically have been worried about alienating has been Patrick Peterson and I don't know that he warrants that level of consideration anymore. Chandler Jones can play in any scheme. Corey Peters can play in any scheme. Jordan Hicks...any scheme. Byron Murphy...any scheme. Who else are we really worried about?
 

Bkbobo

Hall of Famer
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Posts
1,345
Reaction score
1,695
Location
Washington, DC
The question we should be asking … if we got rid on Vance, who would we want to replace him???
 
Top