Fire Vance Joseph?

[JosiahLee]

Just curious where you guys stand regarding our D Coordinator.

On one hand he’s playing the hand he was dealt by Steve Keim...On the other hand you would like to see a coach scheme to hide players weaknesses and maximize their strengths.

Heading into the season I would argue most of us believed the offense would be the weakness of this team, yet they seem to be over performing week in and week out with a suspect O line & no dominant WR.

Would you move on from Vance in 2020 and do you think the Cardinals will?

 

[b8rtm8nn]

I would fire Keim first, to be honest.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Just curious where you guys stand regarding our D Coordinator.

On one hand he’s playing the hand he was dealt by Steve Keim...On the other hand you would like to see a coach scheme to hide players weaknesses and maximize their strengths.

Heading into the season I would argue most of us believed the offense would be the weakness of this team, yet they seem to be over performing week in and week out with a suspect O line & no dominant WR.

Would you move on from Vance in 2020 and do you think the Cardinals will?

Good question. Maybe he's one of those DC'S that needs talent in his particular scheme in order to make it work? Maybe he's not one of the DC's that can get something out of nothing? Sounds simple I know. I say give the man some talent & 1 more yr because the talent we do have is already familiar with his scheme. Switching DC's after only one yr could help but could also hinder their development. After getting more help on defense in the offseason & still no improvement next season, yeah, then let him go. Everywhere he's been, the Dolphins & Broncos, they've complained about his rush defense. On the flip side of that, his defenses both places have been very good in creating turnovers. Plus they work on strip sacks in practice every day, I like that. Idk how many DC's we've had in the past that made them practice that? It does help.

 

[GatorAZ]

They’re not messing with the coaching staff with Kliff here. He’s got enough on his plate.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

They’re not messing with the coaching staff with Kliff here. He’s got enough on his plate.

I agree. VJ needs another yr, he doesn't have much to work with right now. Get him some talent & if it doesn't work out after that............? Time to switch DC's.

 

[Southpaw]

I thought , according to some, he was the veteran leader Kliff needed when hired by Keim.

 

[Garthshort]

I'd be interested if everyone who wants SK fired, and it is a reasonable take, I'm wondering who you want to replace him?

 

[PACardsFan]

Unless he has another brush with the law, it doesn't appear that SK is going anywhere just yet. BASK was a good combination early on because they were familiar with each other for years (both grew up in the York, PA area). Unfortunately, early success led to arrogance & complacency. The BA portion of the BASK combo got too powerful & ultimately had too much say in how this team was put together. BASK became a toxic combo, and our window of early success slammed shut. One could definitely say that SK was ultimately responsible for that happening. And within most franchises, that might have spelled doom for Steve. But this is the Cardinals, and MB has been like a father figure to SK. It would appear that MB has decided to give SK an opportunity to fix things. Only MB can judge as to whether that's happening quick enough. Who really knows how long that leash is??

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Good question. Maybe he's one of those DC'S that needs talent in his particular scheme in order to make it work? Maybe he's not one of the DC's that can get something out of nothing? Sounds simple I know. I say give the man some talent & 1 more yr because the talent we do have is already familiar with his scheme. Switching DC's after only one yr could help but could also hinder their development. After getting more help on defense in the offseason & still no improvement next season, yeah, then let him go. Everywhere he's been, the Dolphins & Broncos, they've complained about his rush defense. On the flip side of that, his defenses both places have been very good in creating turnovers. Plus they work on strip sacks in practice every day, I like that. Idk how many DC's we've had in the past that made them practice that? It does help.

Well said cardsfan. This is where I'm at too.

Certainly not thrilled, but give the man a fair chance.

 

[az jam]

Give everyone another year and use the cap money and draft to fill major holes. IMO Cards are going in the right direction.

 

[cardpa]

Unless he has another brush with the law, it doesn't appear that SK is going anywhere just yet. BASK was a good combination early on because they were familiar with each other for years (both grew up in the York, PA area). Unfortunately, early success led to arrogance & complacency. The BA portion of the BASK combo got too powerful & ultimately had too much say in how this team was put together. BASK became a toxic combo, and our window of early success slammed shut. One could definitely say that SK was ultimately responsible for that happening. And within most franchises, that might have spelled doom for Steve. But this is the Cardinals, and MB has been like a father figure to SK. It would appear that MB has decided to give SK an opportunity to fix things. Only MB can judge as to whether that's happening quick enough. Who really knows how long that leash is??

I have been saying just this for some time now. This is 100% correct on how it will play out.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Unless he has another brush with the law, it doesn't appear that SK is going anywhere just yet. BASK was a good combination early on because they were familiar with each other for years (both grew up in the York, PA area). Unfortunately, early success led to arrogance & complacency. The BA portion of the BASK combo got too powerful & ultimately had too much say in how this team was put together. BASK became a toxic combo, and our window of early success slammed shut. One could definitely say that SK was ultimately responsible for that happening. And within most franchises, that might have spelled doom for Steve. But this is the Cardinals, and MB has been like a father figure to SK. It would appear that MB has decided to give SK an opportunity to fix things. Only MB can judge as to whether that's happening quick enough. Who really knows how long that leash is??

I agree also PA. Success is double edge sword.

Also, IMHO, a sober SK can get it done. But that begs the question...

 

[slanidrac16]

He has coached a defense that lost their two starting cb’s. Lost a top f/a d-lineman before the season started. Is now playing a rookie at cb and safety. We also may have the slowest linebacking corp in the league.

If we fire VJ we start all over again. We need to build on what we have. If you believe we currently have the talent on this defense to be vastly better than how we’ve been playing, then fine, fire VJ.

I don’t believe there are too many posters here believe we have the talent to be a top 10 defense.

 

[football karma]

I think we would all agree that Todd Bowles is a competent DC.

I think Tampa has more defensive talent than the Cards -- but is also a hot mess in the secondary.

looking at another team, its easy to be objective and conclude that Tampa needs better talent in their secondary.

I don't know if Vance Joseph is average, good, or bad -- but I do know that the Cards D needs better talent at all three levels of the D.

Im also not crazy about installing a fourth different defense in four years if Vance is let go.

 

[Jasper]

I really wanted Chuck Pagano

 

[HGC]

Who is taking this job considering the circumstances? Keim will probably return but he has to be considered a lame duck GM who needs to finish .500 or better to keep his job. Joseph isn’t very good but let’s not pretend this organization is in the position to get someone better right now.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

He has coached a defense that lost their two starting cb’s. Lost a top f/a d-lineman before the season started. Is now playing a rookie at cb and safety. We also may have the slowest linebacking corp in the league.

If we fire VJ we start all over again. We need to build on what we have. If you believe we currently have the talent on this defense to be vastly better than how we’ve been playing, then fine, fire VJ.

I don’t believe there are too many posters here believe we have the talent to be a top 10 defense.

Well said, Buddy Ryan in his better yrs as a DC probably couldn't get much out of this defense. Not to say VJ is definitely the man for this job but he deserves a fair chance to see what he can do with better talent.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

I think we would all agree that Todd Bowles is a competent DC.

I think Tampa has more defensive talent than the Cards -- but is also a hot mess in the secondary.

looking at another team, its easy to be objective and conclude that Tampa needs better talent in their secondary.

I don't know if Vance Joseph is average, good, or bad -- but I do know that the Cards D needs better talent at all three levels of the D.

Im also not crazy about installing a fourth different defense in four years if Vance is let go.

Exactly. Bringing in a new DC when the current core group already know the system VJ uses may be the wrong move? May also make us better but I'm willing to bet it would set us back, even with more talent.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Unless he has another brush with the law, it doesn't appear that SK is going anywhere just yet. BASK was a good combination early on because they were familiar with each other for years (both grew up in the York, PA area). Unfortunately, early success led to arrogance & complacency. The BA portion of the BASK combo got too powerful & ultimately had too much say in how this team was put together. BASK became a toxic combo, and our window of early success slammed shut. One could definitely say that SK was ultimately responsible for that happening. And within most franchises, that might have spelled doom for Steve. But this is the Cardinals, and MB has been like a father figure to SK. It would appear that MB has decided to give SK an opportunity to fix things. Only MB can judge as to whether that's happening quick enough. Who really knows how long that leash is??

I've been saying it for a while now. SK is the best bud of MB & has a very long leash. MB listens to every word SK has to say as to the direction of this football team. Just watch videos of the two of them in the war room at draft time & you will see. MB just listens & doesn't disagree with anything SK says. Agrees with everything he says in the press conferences as well. SK has a long leash & as you said, unless SK does something totally asinine (another DUI) he will be the GM here as long as he wants?

 

[Solar7]

I guess I'm on the side of "don't fire VJ." The talent surely isn't there, and if we're keeping Keim for another year of the Kliff Kingsbury show, we may as well give VJ a chance with a reload of his kind of guys.

If the team has another bad year, which is still what I've been saying all along, blow up the whole thing.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

I guess I'm on the side of "don't fire VJ." The talent surely isn't there, and if we're keeping Keim for another year of the Kliff Kingsbury show, we may as well give VJ a chance with a reload of his kind of guys.

If the team has another bad year, which is still what I've been saying all along, blow up the whole thing.

I highly doubt the KK offense will blow up, it will take off imo. The defense may need another DC if this thing blows up next yr but the offense will only get better. Hiring another new HC will set this team back 5 yrs. They're averaging around 24 points/game with what they have now, imagine this offense with a good LT & a top notch WR? I'm hoping Butler blows up next season, he has the height & speed to be good, just needs game reps. Isabella is starting to grow now & will get even better these next 6 games. Add another top flight WR with those 2, Larry & Kirk & we may have something? We can debate this all day but time will tell. Hell, we're a handful of missed opportunities in 4 games from being 7-3 right now with the players we have currently.

 

[THESMEL]

I think joesph is a fine DC, right on schedule considering we stripped our 3- 4 for a 4-3 for one miserable year under Wilkes - only 8 players from BA’s team one year removed, with former cards starting all over the nfl. It’s really up to KK - after the season -

 

[Solar7]

I highly doubt the KK offense will blow up, it will take off imo. The defense may need another DC if this thing blows up next yr but the offense will only get better. Hiring another new HC will set this team back 5 yrs. They're averaging around 24 points/game with what they have now, imagine this offense with a good LT & a top notch WR? I'm hoping Butler blows up next season, he has the height & speed to be good, just needs game reps. Isabella is starting to grow now & will get even better these next 6 games. Add another top flight WR with those 2, Larry & Kirk & we may have something? We can debate this all day but time will tell. Hell, we're a handful of missed opportunities in 4 games from being 7-3 right now with the players we have currently.

Last year, with a team/staff everyone pretty much unanimously didn't enjoy, we were a whopping 10 points combined from being 7-9. That's right, the Wilks team had four losses within 3 points or less. A bounce of the ball here or there. Am I saying we should have kept that staff, the QB, or whoever? No, but the argument that we could be whatever record holds no weight when we simply aren't. And I'd argue that the teams we just barely lost to, or won against, were better than the teams we've won against or won lost in a 3 pt margin now.

(2018 within 3 points or a win: 2x Seahawks, Bears, Packers, Raiders, 49ers - 36-43-1. 45% win %. Two playoff teams.)
(2019 within 3 points or a win: Lions, Bengals, Falcons, Giants, 49ers, Buccaneers - 18-36-1. 33% win percentage. Heavily skewed by the 49ers with only 1 loss. One playoff team, the others are essentially mathematically out.)

Of course I'm not saying we should fire Kingsbury this offseason unless something dramatic plays out, or we get a great GM who needs to build the team in his own image, just that after year two, unless things wildly pick up, it's on the table. We have no evidence to show the guy knows how to be a head coach - literally none of the numbers back it up.

Where are we finding a good LT in short order? Why are we drafting/signing a top notch WR after dedicating four picks in the past two drafts to the position? Those things need to be looked at closely.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Last year, with a team/staff everyone pretty much unanimously didn't enjoy, we were a whopping 10 points combined from being 7-9. That's right, the Wilks team had four losses within 3 points or less. A bounce of the ball here or there. Am I saying we should have kept that staff, the QB, or whoever? No, but the argument that we could be whatever record holds no weight when we simply aren't. And I'd argue that the teams we just barely lost to, or won against, were better than the teams we've won against or won lost in a 3 pt margin now.

(2018 within 3 points or a win: 2x Seahawks, Bears, Packers, Raiders, 49ers - 36-43-1. 45% win %. Two playoff teams.)
(2019 within 3 points or a win: Lions, Bengals, Falcons, Giants, 49ers, Buccaneers - 18-36-1. 33% win percentage. Heavily skewed by the 49ers with only 1 loss. One playoff team, the others are essentially mathematically out.)

Of course I'm not saying we should fire Kingsbury this offseason unless something dramatic plays out, or we get a great GM who needs to build the team in his own image, just that after year two, unless things wildly pick up, it's on the table. We have no evidence to show the guy knows how to be a head coach - literally none of the numbers back it up.

Where are we finding a good LT in short order? Why are we drafting/signing a top notch WR after dedicating four picks in the past two drafts to the position? Those things need to be looked at closely.

The WR thing is gonna be a difficult decision I agree, considering the 3 we drafted. I'm hoping Isabella takes off & Butler takes off? He's gonna have a full yr of learning this offense, just needs game reps. The LT thing............? I really don't know, depends on what position we draft with our first pick & what they do with Humphries? I know we should've won a few more games last yr, that being said, I never had any confidence in our offense last yr to do anything. We got behind, we were finished. This yrs team I believe can score, can't wait for them to get back on the field after a punt.

 

[Solar7]

The WR thing is gonna be a difficult decision I agree, considering the 3 we drafted. I'm hoping Isabella takes off & Butler takes off? He's gonna have a full yr of learning this offense, just needs game reps. The LT thing............? I really don't know, depends on what position we draft with our first pick & what they do with Humphries? I know we should've won a few more games last yr, that being said, I never had any confidence in our offense last yr to do anything. We got behind, we were finished. This yrs team I believe can score, can't wait for them to get back on the field after a punt.

I'm with you there. It's nice to have a team you believe can move the ball, and not hold your breath every time the ball releases from the QB's hand.

I promise I'm not all doom and gloom! I just struggle to be really optimistic when we would all struggle to find 5 spots on this team where we wouldn't, as a collective, like to upgrade or cut a guy.

The only ones I can think that we're all happy with, and think are the future of our team, are Murray, Kirk, and Chandler Jones. Maybe Byron Murphy, but he's not there just yet. No one would be rioting if we brought back Alford from IR and let him play over Byron.