Marvel Movies and the attacks on them by other actors/directors

[Brian in Mesa]

Ethan Hawke once made a distinction between great movies and "great superhero movies" in his attempt to make it clear there was a difference (in his opinion). Now there are several directors on the attack...

Martin Scorsese Compares Marvel Movies to Theme Parks: ‘That’s Not Cinema’

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/10/martin-scorsese-marvel-movies-not-cinema-theme-parks-1202178747/

Don’t ask Martin Scorsese his thoughts on the record-breaking “Avengers: Endgame” because he hasn’t seen it, nor will he ever see it. The legendary filmmaker recently dismissed the Marvel Cinematic Universe during an interview with Empire magazine, saying that Marvel movies do not possess the traits that make cinema truly special.

“I don’t see them. I tried, you know? But that’s not cinema,” Scorsese told Empire. “Honestly, the closest I can think of them, as well made as they are, with actors doing the best they can under the circumstances, is theme parks. It isn’t the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being.”

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Francis Ford Coppola Says Marvel Movies Are ‘Despicable’

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/10/francis-ford-coppola-marvel-1202183238/

Another day, another disgruntled auteur ******** all over the Marvel Cinematic Universe. The latest to join the cinematic fray of esteemed directors who have nothing good to say about the MCU is Francis Ford Coppola, who admittedly supports Martin Scorsese’s recent comments condemning the superhero franchise to death.

“When Martin Scorsese says that the Marvel pictures are not cinema, he’s right because we expect to learn something from cinema, we expect to gain something, some enlightenment, some knowledge, some inspiration…I don’t know that anyone gets anything out of seeing the same movie over and over again,” the 80-year-old filmmaker said, according to Yahoo! News. “Martin was kind when he said it’s not cinema. He didn’t say it’s despicable, which I just say it is.”

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Ken Loach: Marvel superhero films 'boring' and 'nothing to do with art of cinema'

https://news.sky.com/story/ken-loac...and-nothing-to-do-with-art-of-cinema-11841486

Ken Loach has told Sky News he finds the Marvel superhero movies "boring" and "nothing to do with the art of cinema".

The British director has joined the debate following comments by fellow filmmakers such as Martin Scorsese, who said they are "not cinema", and Francis Ford Coppola who branded them "despicable".

Loach told Sky News: "They're made as commodities like hamburgers, and it's not about communicating and it's not about sharing our imagination.

"It's about making a commodity which will make a profit for a big corporation - they're a cynical exercise.

"They're market exercise and it has nothing to do with the art of cinema. William Blake said 'when money is discussed - art is impossible'."

 

[Covert Rain]

Honestly....I don't give a flying "f" what those guys say about other movies. Love their work and their stuff but they don't represent all of Hollywood or the film community. Movies as entertainment would absolutely suck if everything had the same tone, style as the films those two make. To say that other types of movies are not cinema is comparable to when idiots said the same about rap music.

These Grumpy old men have a right to their opinion but it doesn't mean those opinions are not stupid. They can make whatever they like but don't bag on others.

 

[BigRedRage]

They arent wrong in the big picture but people enjoy popcorn flicks and popcorn flicks help drive the cinema fandom which helps when a serious, thoughtful cinematic piece is produced.

But yeah, if you pit something like shawshank vs the avengers, shawshank is art and a deep, compelling story vs explosions.

 

[Covert Rain]

They arent wrong in the big picture but people enjoy popcorn flicks and popcorn flicks help drive the cinema fandom which helps when a serious, thoughtful cinematic piece is produced.

But yeah, if you pit something like shawshank vs the avengers, shawshank is art and a deep, compelling story vs explosions.

What is the big picture? Cinema is defined as a production of art or industry. You don't think a ton of art goes into the writing process, production, filming etc. to almost any film regardless of the genre? Certainly other types of films like comedy, animation, popcorn films drive the industry.

Something doesn't have to be "thoughtful" to be cinema. Something doesn't have to be dark, brooding, melodrama to be Cinema. Cinema is about experiences (not a specific experience).

 

[Brian in Mesa]

James Gunn 'saddened' over Martin Scorsese's critique of superhero movies

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/martin-scorsese-marvel-movies-james-gunn-response-193307140.html

Martin Scorsese told fans of superhero movies to get off his lawn, and James Gunn is feeling the burn.

"I don't see them," the 76-year-old director told Empire magazine in a recent interview when asked his opinion on films in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. "I tried, you know? But that's not cinema."

Gunn, one of the most prominent voices in the world of comic book movies given his work as a writer-director on Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy series and producer on Avengers films and recent crossover into the DC Extended Universe with The Suicide Squad, took to Twitter Friday to voice his disappointment in Scorsese's comments.

Martin Scorsese is one of my 5 favorite living filmmakers. I was outraged when people picketed The Last Temptation of Christ without having seen the film. I’m saddened that he’s now judging my films in the same way.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

James Gunn defends Marvel movies after Francis Ford Coppola calls them 'despicable'

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/othe...ford-coppola-calls-them-despicable/ar-AAJ6akj

James Gunn may oversee the Guardians of the Galaxy films, but now he’s also becoming somewhat of a guardian of superhero films at large.

The director shared a post on his Instagram on Sunday, speaking directly to Francis Ford Coppola’s remarks calling Marvel films “despicable.” Gunn reminded his followers that every genre and art form has faced its detractors in past eras, specifically referencing the genre most associated with Coppola — the gangster film.

“Many of our grandfathers thought all gangster movies were the same, often calling them ‘despicable.’ Some of our great grandfathers thought the same of westerns, and believed the films of John Ford, Sam Peckinpah, and Sergio Leone were all exactly the same,” Gunn wrote. “I remember a great uncle to whom I was raving about Star Wars. He responded by saying, ‘I saw that when it was called 2001, and, boy, was it boring!’ Superheroes are simply today’s gangsters/cowboys/outer space adventurers. Some superhero films are awful, some are beautiful. Like westerns and gangster movies (and before that, just MOVIES), not everyone will be able to appreciate them, even some geniuses. And that’s okay. ”

 

[Brian in Mesa]

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[Brian in Mesa]

Bob Iger Compares ‘Black Panther’ to Scorsese and Coppola Films in Defense of Marvel Movies

https://www.thewrap.com/bob-iger-co...nd-coppola-films-in-defense-of-marvel-movies/

Disney CEO Bob Iger was the latest to leap to the defense of Marvel movies in the recent civil war among filmmakers over the blockbusters, pointing to Ryan Coogler’s Best Picture-nominated “Black Panther” as worthy as being called “cinema” as any film Martin Scorsese or Francis Ford Coppola have made.

Iger got heated on the subject as part of the WSJ Tech Live event Tuesday night after both Scorsese, Coppola and a handful of other auteur filmmakers have criticized the movies, with Coppola most recently calling the films “despicable.”

“I’m puzzled by it. If they want to bitch about movies it’s certainly their right. It seems so disrespectful to all the people who work on those films who are working just as hard as the people who are working on their films and are putting their creative souls on the line just like they are,” Iger said of filmmakers’ comments. “Are you telling me that Ryan Coogler making ‘Black Panther’ is doing something that somehow or another is less than anything Marty Scorsese or Francis Ford Coppola have ever done on any one of their movies? Come on.”

Iger says he holds Coppola and Scorsese in “the highest regard,” but he took issue with Coppola’s characterization of the films as “despicable,” and that he’d only reserve that word “for someone who had committed mass murder.”

“When Francis uses the words ‘those films are despicable,’ to whom is he talking? Is he talking to Kevin Feige who runs Marvel, or Taika Waititi who directs or Ryan Coogler who directs for us or Scarlett Johansson,” Iger said. “I don’t get what they’re criticizing us for when we’re making films that people are obviously enjoying going to because they’re doing so by the millions.”

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Jon Favreau: Scorsese and Coppola Have Earned the Right to Criticize Marvel Movies

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/10/j...ave-right-criticize-marvel-movies-1202183965/

Martin Scorsese and Francis Ford Coppola’s Marvel movie criticisms have set off a chain reaction of responses from talent both inside and outside the Marvel Cinematic Universe (yes, even two-time Palme d’Or winner and kitchen sink drama master Ken Loach has weighed in comparing Marvel films to hamburgers). While MCU names such as Natalie Portman, Taika Waititi, and James Gunn have defended Marvel films against accusations they are “despicable” and not real cinema, “Iron Man” director and MCU actor Jon Favreau is choosing to be a bit more diplomatic.

“These two guys are my heroes, and they have earned the right to express their opinions,” Favreau told CNBC on Tuesday (via The Wrap). “I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing if they didn’t carve the way. They served as a source of inspiration, you can go all the way back to ‘Swingers.’ They can express whatever opinion they like.”

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What a butt-kissing yes-man. Sure, they can express their opinion, but you can also defend your work since you have been involved in several Marvel films as both an actor and a director SMH.

 

[puckhead]

...

Don’t ask Martin Scorsese his thoughts on the record-breaking “Avengers: Endgame” because he hasn’t seen it, nor will he ever see it. The legendary filmmaker recently dismissed the Marvel Cinematic Universe during an interview with Empire magazine, saying that Marvel movies do not possess the traits that make cinema truly special.

“I don’t see them. I tried, you know? But that’s not cinema,” Scorsese told Empire. “Honestly, the closest I can think of them, as well made as they are, with actors doing the best they can under the circumstances, is theme parks. It isn’t the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being.”

Ok. He tried and didn't like, what, one movie? Not exactly an informed opinion here, Marty. Not sure why anyone really cares if they like them or not. Evidently, many people do like them and guess what? As long as people buy tickets, they will be made. I find that shaking my fist at the sky helps me feel better when I'm upset about things like this.

 

[BigRedRage]

What is the big picture? Cinema is defined as a production of art or industry. You don't think a ton of art goes into the writing process, production, filming etc. to almost any film regardless of the genre? Certainly other types of films like comedy, animation, popcorn films drive the industry.

Something doesn't have to be "thoughtful" to be cinema. Something doesn't have to be dark, brooding, melodrama to be Cinema. Cinema is about experiences (not a specific experience).

I agree, I do not have a side here. I can agree with serious filmmakers that they see a movie as an art piece meant to move you and have profound thoughts afterward vs popcorn movies but I have no issue with popcorn movies. my point kinda was that the non "art films" drive the industry and without them, no one would care when the scorcese movie came out because people wouldnt be movie goers.

 

[BigRedRage]

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Hip hop still isnt

 

[Chaplin]

I think Drake sucks and isn’t music. What’s the difference?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think the reason you're seeing the old guard come out so strongly against the Marvelization of the Movies is because the reliance on Marvel has seriously marginalized storytelling on the big screen for anything but superheroes. Scorsese and Coppola's comment are born of fear that truly great cinema is going the way of the dodo as Studios are becoming increasingly reticent to make the type of films that those guys love. And I don't begrudge the fear they have. I have it too. I mean, I dig the Marvel movies a lot, but a world where ALL we get at the movies are Marvel/DC/Star Wars at the expense of the next original film from my favorite auteurs and who knows what filmmakers may be coming down the pike sucks a lot for a cinefile like me.

Yes... a few of those movies will still get made by the big studios and some will get made by streamers, but I love the theater experience and believe that some films demand to be seen on the biggest screen possible and I think something gets lost in translation watching a movie laid out in your couch, as opposed to the shared experience of a theater.

that said, they sound like old freaking *******.

 

[Stout]

They can go suck on lemons, honestly. I believe Cheese when he says it's born out of fear, and from fear is bred hatred, but oh well. I hate that the big studios make tons of remakes too, because they're too pansy assed to make an original movie, but where's their outrage over all the big remakes? Where's the "remakes aren't real cinema" comments? *crickets* Yeah, that's what I thought.

 

[Chaplin]

They can go suck on lemons, honestly. I believe Cheese when he says it's born out of fear, and from fear is bred hatred, but oh well. I hate that the big studios make tons of remakes too, because they're too pansy assed to make an original movie, but where's their outrage over all the big remakes? Where's the "remakes aren't real cinema" comments? *crickets* Yeah, that's what I thought.

That's not what Scorsese was asked about. People forget that he was answering a stupid question.

 

[Covert Rain]

They can go suck on lemons, honestly. I believe Cheese when he says it's born out of fear, and from fear is bred hatred, but oh well. I hate that the big studios make tons of remakes too, because they're too pansy assed to make an original movie, but where's their outrage over all the big remakes? Where's the "remakes aren't real cinema" comments? *crickets* Yeah, that's what I thought.

This. I think it's reasonable for anyone in the industry to be concerned about cookie cutter type movies and that because of that commercial success it drives studios to take fewer chances. Totally understand that.

However, the reverse is also true. Hollywood and the studios need mainstream movies to drive the industry. Even if you had one movie a year come out from these two and they were Oscar worthy but totally devoid of blockbusters....the industry would die. Movies like theirs cannot drive the industry all on their own. The industry needs variety. It needs to cater to all kinds of taste. It needs mainstream success.

Honestly, they both have earned the right to say what they think. IMO it's extremely narrow thinking and short sited.

 

[Chaplin]

This. I think it's reasonable for anyone in the industry to be concerned about cookie cutter type movies and that because of that commercial success it drives studios to take fewer chances. Totally understand that.

However, the reverse is also true. Hollywood and the studios need mainstream movies to drive the industry. Even if you had one movie a year come out from these two and they were Oscar worthy but totally devoid of blockbusters....the industry would die. Movies like theirs cannot drive the industry all on their own. The industry needs variety. It needs to cater to all kinds of taste. It needs mainstream success.

Honestly, they both have earned the right to say what they think. IMO it's extremely narrow thinking and short sited.

Marvel movies (and most big-budget movies) are about the audience. Scorsese movies are about the picture. It's that simple.

 

[Covert Rain]

Marvel movies (and most big-budget movies) are about the audience. Scorsese movies are about the picture. It's that simple.

Scorsese makes movies for the audience too. I quote “Your job is to get your audience to care about your obsessions.” No doubt that to them ART might come first. I don't doubt that.

However, my points were not about what their priorities were. I respect them for the work they do and the type of film they make. They are not the entire industry. They don't speak for the entire industry and they certainly are not "right" about what is cinema even though they have earned the right to say what they want.

P.S. Go back to my previous posts. Even though I think the industry couldn't survive without mainstream success, that movies would suck if they all were in the same vein as the Scorsese and Coppola...the same would be true if everything was like a Marvel movie.

 

[Chaplin]

Scorsese makes movies for the audience too. I quote “Your job is to get your audience to care about your obsessions.” No doubt that to them ART might come first. I don't doubt that.

However, my points were not about what their priorities were. I respect them for the work they do and the type of film they make. They are not the entire industry. They don't speak for the entire industry and they certainly are not "right" about what is cinema even though they have earned the right to say what they want.

P.S. Go back to my previous posts. Even though I think the industry couldn't survive without mainstream success, that movies would suck if they all were in the same vein as the Scorsese and Coppola...the same would be true if everything was like a Marvel movie.

No they are not the entire industry, you are correct. Which makes this argument all the more ridiculous. Does it really matter that Scorsese isn't going to pay $15 to see Black Panther? No. It's only a big deal because we (and the media) are making it so.

 

[Covert Rain]

No they are not the entire industry, you are correct. Which makes this argument all the more ridiculous. Does it really matter that Scorsese isn't going to pay $15 to see Black Panther? No. It's only a big deal because we (and the media) are making it so.

Well to be fair...they made it the issue. If an icon makes a statement everyone is going to listen.

 

[Chaplin]

Well to be fair...they made it the issue. If an icon makes a statement everyone is going to listen.

Well, which is it? Does it matter or not?

 

[Covert Rain]

Well, which is it? Does it matter or not?

What do you mean which is it? I didn't make a claim one way or the other. You did. I was simply countering your point that it was the fault of the media or fans. If you are asking, I don't think any of this is, in the grand scheme of things, a big deal.

It's worth discussing ultimately though if you are a huge film buff like some here.