Offensive Philosophy

Harry

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NFL analyst Chris Brown was asked to project the Cards’ offense. His study of KK indicates that the offense will center on the receivers seeking “open grass.” I hope not at least at this point. The problem is, if he’s right, the O-line just won’t support that with the time needed to run progressions. It’s true that Murray mobility will compensate for those deficiencies, but with the defender speed in the NFL if the receivers have set down, defenders will hover and break on the ball if he rolls out before throwing. That offense only works if they can hold a pocket.

Instead they need to be running patterns where Murray can throw where they will be not just where they are. His ability to throw deep on the run will allow the Cards’ receivers to use their speed and double moves to get behind defenders but that’s not about looking for seams. If Murray actually gets time to throw that’s fine but IMO they’ll have more success with quick hot read type passes plus screens and swing passes to DJ. They need to rollout Murray while running crossing route patterns towards the side Murray will roll along with some 2 man games tying him to the receiver on that side. Make the OLB commit to one or the other. I hope they incorporate middle screens occasionally to slow teams from collapsing the pocket. That way Murray can step up or even run as DJ has become a decent blocker.
 

cardpa

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NFL analyst Chris Brown was asked to project the Cards’ offense. His study of KK indicates that the offense will center on the receivers seeking “open grass.” I hope not at least at this point. The problem is, if he’s right, the O-line just won’t support that with the time needed to run progressions. It’s true that Murray mobility will compensate for those deficiencies, but with the defender speed in the NFL if the receivers have set down, defenders will hover and break on the ball if he rolls out before throwing. That offense only works if they can hold a pocket.

Instead they need to be running patterns where Murray can throw where they will be not just where they are. His ability to throw deep on the run will allow the Cards’ receivers to use their speed and double moves to get behind defenders but that’s not about looking for seams. If Murray actually gets time to throw that’s fine but IMO they’ll have more success with quick hot read type passes plus screens and swing passes to DJ. They need to rollout Murray while running crossing route patterns towards the side Murray will roll along with some 2 man games tying him to the receiver on that side. Make the OLB commit to one or the other. I hope they incorporate middle screens occasionally to slow teams from collapsing the pocket. That way Murray can step up or even run as DJ has become a decent blocker.

Isn't that basically what the Air Raid offense is designed around? Receivers dropping into open areas and the QB finding them.
 

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Isn't that basically what the Air Raid offense is designed around? Receivers dropping into open areas and the QB finding them.
Isn't that basically EVERY offensive scheme when passing? I don't know of one where you intentionally looked for the most covered guy and pass to him. Unless it's the Cards passing to Fitsgerald!
 

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So ARZ is not running a version McVeigh’s system? I thought that was the point of bringing him in. McVeigh’s system works so just run that or whatever system masks our OL deficiencies.
 

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So ARZ is not running a version McVeigh’s system? I thought that was the point of bringing him in. McVeigh’s system works so just run that or whatever system masks our OL deficiencies.

We brought him in because he's talked to McVay a couple of times.

To the OP, I think that the rub routes and quick passes are built into the system. The the combination of patterns that the wideouts are running potentially open windows at pre-set points that can be read by both the QB and the Receiver.

You can also create time with the play-action/zone read action; it just takes a moment's hesitation by the pass rusher to free up the time you need.

In a way, the short passing game works as a kind of play action to suck defenders up underneath and then go over the top on them. The question is whether there's enough speed to actually break that tendency in the WR corps, or if the pattern adjustments are on the same page early enough to matter.

I think we could see 5-6 "WTF?" throws over the first couple weeks where Pasch says, "It just didn't seem like Murry and [WR] were on the same page there.

I think that concern-trolling Kliff Kingsbury's offense is a fool's errand.
 

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We brought him in because he's talked to McVay a couple of times.

To the OP, I think that the rub routes and quick passes are built into the system. The the combination of patterns that the wideouts are running potentially open windows at pre-set points that can be read by both the QB and the Receiver.

You can also create time with the play-action/zone read action; it just takes a moment's hesitation by the pass rusher to free up the time you need.

In a way, the short passing game works as a kind of play action to suck defenders up underneath and then go over the top on them. The question is whether there's enough speed to actually break that tendency in the WR corps, or if the pattern adjustments are on the same page early enough to matter.

I think we could see 5-6 "WTF?" throws over the first couple weeks where Pasch says, "It just didn't seem like Murry and [WR] were on the same page there.

I think that concern-trolling Kliff Kingsbury's offense is a fool's errand.
Nice explanation here, my hope is that the threat of DJ will open it up for these types of plays. We could see a number of quick back shoulder throws also to help. I think success this year really hinges on DJs ability to be great again along with defense generating QB pressure and somewhat decent against run. I think that changes over time though if we can get improved OL play/pass pro.
 

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Nice explanation here, my hope is that the threat of DJ will open it up for these types of plays. We could see a number of quick back shoulder throws also to help. I think success this year really hinges on DJs ability to be great again along with defense generating QB pressure and somewhat decent against run. I think that changes over time though if we can get improved OL play/pass pro.

This is the one area that concerns me in that just as the Oline is improving from time playing together (they didn't really play together as a group in the pre season) and they are becoming a cohesive group, the starters who have been injury prone will start dropping and now you have the reserves stepping into starting positions and you are back to square one again with regards to cohesion in line play. This is what happened last season and I don't have a high degree of confidence we won't see a similar thing this season.
 

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This is the one area that concerns me in that just as the Oline is improving from time playing together (they didn't really play together as a group in the pre season) and they are becoming a cohesive group, the starters who have been injury prone will start dropping and now you have the reserves stepping into starting positions and you are back to square one again with regards to cohesion in line play. This is what happened last season and I don't have a high degree of confidence we won't see a similar thing this season.

The OL was execrable to begin the season last year, as well. David Johnson averaged 3.34 YPC last September.
 

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The OL was execrable to begin the season last year, as well. David Johnson averaged 3.34 YPC last September.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here? Is that a good ypc average for the execrable OL for David Johnson or not?
 

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I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here? Is that a good ypc average for the execrable OL for David Johnson or not?

It seemed that the OP's assumption was that the OL began the season as at least average and then got worse as injuries set in and more and more inexperienced players came on line. The reality was that David Johnson's best month was November.
 
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Harry

Harry

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Isn't that basically EVERY offensive scheme when passing? I don't know of one where you intentionally looked for the most covered guy and pass to him. Unless it's the Cards passing to Fitsgerald!
No every scheme is not about finding holes. There are 3 basic types of defenses with now dozens of variations; zone, man and hybrids of the 2. You are correct that part of attacking a zone is finding gaps and settling into them. However, even then there is a thing called receiver routes. A fly pattern or post is often part of outrunning a safety In man especially the receiver runs a specified route and attempts to achieve separation from the defender either with speed, move(s) or legal physical contact. You’ve probably seen an analyst on a game explain why a QB threw to a place no one was. He sometimes says the receiver broke off the route. This can be by intentional agreement between QB & WR like on a post some receivers have the option to break to the corner if the defender overplays the route to the inside. It can also be the receiver ran the wrong route or gave up on the route. This often results in interceptions and even a grounding call.

This also is why precise route running is so important in scouting. If a QB is under pressure they may throw to where the receiver is supposed to be. Warner was a master of reading a defense and determining which route would be open. He threw to a spot. It’s why he could consistently avoids sacks by throwing early. There are, of course, other reasons for running to an open space like helping a scrambling QB. Overall normally running to “open grass” is strictly used for zones and some parts of hybrids and typically not by every receiver in the pattern. If KK is changing this it means Murray will need more time to find receivers as it will not be easy to anticipate where to look for them.
 

Russ Smith

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We brought him in because he's talked to McVay a couple of times.

To the OP, I think that the rub routes and quick passes are built into the system. The the combination of patterns that the wideouts are running potentially open windows at pre-set points that can be read by both the QB and the Receiver.

You can also create time with the play-action/zone read action; it just takes a moment's hesitation by the pass rusher to free up the time you need.

In a way, the short passing game works as a kind of play action to suck defenders up underneath and then go over the top on them. The question is whether there's enough speed to actually break that tendency in the WR corps, or if the pattern adjustments are on the same page early enough to matter.

I think we could see 5-6 "WTF?" throws over the first couple weeks where Pasch says, "It just didn't seem like Murry and [WR] were on the same page there.

I think that concern-trolling Kliff Kingsbury's offense is a fool's errand.


WR speed is my concern too really only Kirk in the projected starting 3(Fitz and Crabtree) has deep speed. The next projected 3 Byrd can really run, Sherfield is ok fast I think he's debatable if he's a burner. Johnson gets open but isn't a burner, Isabella is a burner but looks right now like the 7th guy and everyone is saying he's currently too easy to knock off his routes.

So the only deep threats we seem to have are 2 2nd year guys one undrafted, and Byrd who has 12 total catches in 3 NFL seasons before now.

I think it'll be interesting to watch but I am concerned. We really need one of the young guys, Byrd(3 years), Sherfield(1 year), Johnson, Isabella rookies to step up quickly so we're not playing 2 slow guys and Kirk on most downs.
 

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The Bad News:
A lot of different opinions.

The Good News:
In about four days, we MIGHT know who was correct. Can't wait. Actually, I can and will wait.
 

Jetstream Green

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WR speed is my concern too really only Kirk in the projected starting 3(Fitz and Crabtree) has deep speed. The next projected 3 Byrd can really run, Sherfield is ok fast I think he's debatable if he's a burner. Johnson gets open but isn't a burner, Isabella is a burner but looks right now like the 7th guy and everyone is saying he's currently too easy to knock off his routes.

So the only deep threats we seem to have are 2 2nd year guys one undrafted, and Byrd who has 12 total catches in 3 NFL seasons before now.

I think it'll be interesting to watch but I am concerned. We really need one of the young guys, Byrd(3 years), Sherfield(1 year), Johnson, Isabella rookies to step up quickly so we're not playing 2 slow guys and Kirk on most downs.

With the way this offense seems to be predicated, it's more about quicks and hot routes in space... especially with the way defenses will be sending the house
 

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WR speed is my concern too really only Kirk in the projected starting 3(Fitz and Crabtree) has deep speed. The next projected 3 Byrd can really run, Sherfield is ok fast I think he's debatable if he's a burner. Johnson gets open but isn't a burner, Isabella is a burner but looks right now like the 7th guy and everyone is saying he's currently too easy to knock off his routes.

So the only deep threats we seem to have are 2 2nd year guys one undrafted, and Byrd who has 12 total catches in 3 NFL seasons before now.

I think it'll be interesting to watch but I am concerned. We really need one of the young guys, Byrd(3 years), Sherfield(1 year), Johnson, Isabella rookies to step up quickly so we're not playing 2 slow guys and Kirk on most downs.

Someone mentioned on a Cards podcast that Isabella might not even be active on Sundays to begin the season.
 

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Someone mentioned on a Cards podcast that Isabella might not even be active on Sundays to begin the season.

I think that says a lot about what they have seen in practice. As fans we seem to put an emphasis on preseason because that is all we are really privy to but it appears those few bombs we think are so encouraging in the preseason do no tell the whole story
 

Russ Smith

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With the way this offense seems to be predicated, it's more about quicks and hot routes in space... especially with the way defenses will be sending the house


Agreed and if Crabtree is in shape he ought to be able to hit the ground running(slow) because he played in the system in college. But I do think as K9 said there's going to be cases where the routes etc bring guys up and then Kyler gets outside and then you want a take the top off John Brown type Wr to make them pay. Kirk is fast enough(remember the bomb from Josh last year) and Byrd clearly is too.

Hard to say, Johnson looked legit in the preseason but it was preseason, will he be getting open that much in real games, we'll find out.

As K9 said Isabella may not even be active to start the season. Small college guy so I'm not going to panic, but disappointing as high as he was picked.

One of the big advantages as I have been saying all along, to a mobile QB, is if you play man and he gets out of the pocket defenders have to decide do I run with my guy, and give Kyler a big running lane, or do I pay attention to Kyler, and risk my guy running right by me. So it's REALLY helpful to have the speed to do that.
Or you just see lots of zone which is sort of what I expect we will see anyways due to Murray's speed and how young he is.
 
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Harry

Harry

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Certainly speed is a concern but when Warner/Palmer had Fitz and Boldin they had fast third receivers like Breaston & Brown they piled up yardage but mostly spread the field. I think we’ll see frequent 4-5 receiver sets with Isabella & Byrd often there to spread the field. If they can give Murray time to throw they’ll throw downfield if only to create space.
 

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Don't know if Isabella will be active to begin the season, but am pretty sure that at least one of the seven WR's will not be active. Guess (injuries aside) that it's between #16 and #89, if only one.
 

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In regards to the OL...Mike Iupati is injured already and probably won’t play this week for Seattle. Let’s see how long our starting 5 play together...
 

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I'm pretty sure Isabella will need to be active on game day to be the team's kick returner unless they're lying about that.
 

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if Bruce Arians could make JJ Nelson a contributing WR --

Kliff better find a way to make Isabella a contributor

as a rookie in 11 games (2015), Nelson caught 11 for 299 (27 yards a reception!) and 2 TDs on 27 targets

so -- 2 or 3 times a game, Nelson stretched the field. He would only catch one of them, but when he did, it was a big play. No reason Isabella cant fill that role from week 1.
 

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This also is why precise route running is so important in scouting. If a QB is under pressure they may throw to where the receiver is supposed to be. Warner was a master of reading a defense and determining which route would be open. He threw to a spot. It’s why he could consistently avoids sacks by throwing early. There are, of course, other reasons for running to an open space like helping a scrambling QB. Overall normally running to “open grass” is strictly used for zones and some parts of hybrids and typically not by every receiver in the pattern. If KK is changing this it means Murray will need more time to find receivers as it will not be easy to anticipate where to look for them.

At least it's encouraging that K1 and Keeshawn were able to hook up on a couple nice timing routes in the preseason. I think K1 and Fitz already have that chemistry too at this point.
 

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