Suns plan to introduce new head coach Monty Williams Tuesday

[AzStevenCal]

I think that’s harsh. Possible but harsh.

He was a fantastic defender. Long before “long” was thing. And undoubtedly he garnered more attention because of the lake show. But same could he said of many of their players. Most people wouldn’t know who Rambis, AC Green, Mychal Thompson are either. Maybe even Byron Scott.

And we have no idea if coop could’ve been more with a lesser team as well.

That was a big part of my point, he was a role player and they are typically very forgettable. If he were playing elsewhere, nobody would say "ugh" simply because someone didn't know who he was. I think he was better than someone like Raja Bell and I could see an argument either way between him and Rambis but I don't think his career approached the level of AC, Thompson or Byron Scott.

He made some big buckets but he wasn't much of a shooter despite the fact he got an awful lot of wide open looks. He was a very good defender and could guard multiple positions but perhaps his greatest asset was the energy he brought to the game. The closest comp I can come up with for Cooper is PJ Tucker, they both impact their team beyond their stats but most good teams have someone similar and they don't typically stand out as time passes. JMO.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That was a big part of my point, he was a role player and they are typically very forgettable. If he were playing elsewhere, nobody would say "ugh" simply because someone didn't know who he was. I think he was better than someone like Raja Bell and I could see an argument either way between him and Rambis but I don't think his career approached the level of AC, Thompson or Byron Scott.

He made some big buckets but he wasn't much of a shooter despite the fact he got an awful lot of wide open looks. He was a very good defender and could guard multiple positions but perhaps his greatest asset was the energy he brought to the game. The closest comp I can come up with for Cooper is PJ Tucker, they both impact their team beyond their stats but most good teams have someone similar and they don't typically stand out as time passes. JMO.

I would be interested to see what coops advanced defensive stats would look like. Defenders back then didn’t get much respect unless they were shotblockers

 

[Mainstreet]

I think that’s harsh. Possible but harsh.

He was a fantastic defender. Long before “long” was thing. And undoubtedly he garnered more attention because of the lake show. But same could he said of many of their players. Most people wouldn’t know who Rambis, AC Green, Mychal Thompson are either. Maybe even Byron Scott.

And we have no idea if coop could’ve been more with a lesser team as well.

I think Cooper might have excelled as a point guard with a different team. He had ball handling skills in addition to his incredible defense.

 

[Hoop Head]

I missed the presser and I'm curious if it's worthwhile to track down. I've read everything here and it doesn't seem like anything ground breaking was said.

I know he was on Bickley's show also, is he scheduled to be on Gambo's show anytime soon? I won't listen to Bickley, he's an idiot and I vowed to avoid his show at all costs when I heard him say that the Suns would need to trade Ayton if they won the lottery because Zion is a Center and they couldn't play together. I couldn't believe he said it so matter of factly and his co-host agreed with him and that's all the time they spent on that.

 

[JerkFace]

I missed the presser and I'm curious if it's worthwhile to track down. I've read everything here and it doesn't seem like anything ground breaking was said.

I know he was on Bickley's show also, is he scheduled to be on Gambo's show anytime soon? I won't listen to Bickley, he's an idiot and I vowed to avoid his show at all costs when I heard him say that the Suns would need to trade Ayton if they won the lottery because Zion is a Center and they couldn't play together. I couldn't believe he said it so matter of factly and his co-host agreed with him and that's all the time they spent on that.

I listen all the time and have never heard them say that they would need to trade Ayton if they got Zion...
I though both the press conference and the radio interview were pretty impressive and worth giving a listen to.

I found this article by Bickley where he talks about Zion being a PF and how he would look good next to Ayton:
https://arizonasports.com/story/1901111/bleak-phoenix-sports-scene-zion-suns-hope/

 

[Hoop Head]

I listen all the time and have never heard them say that they would need to trade Ayton if they got Zion...
I though both the press conference and the radio interview were pretty impressive and worth giving a listen to.

It was 2-3 weeks ago. It was brief, they were talking about how dominant Zion has been, or rather Bickley was telling his co-host how dominant Zion had been in college. I wish I remembered the date of the show because I was blown away that he would say something so ridiculously wrong. I know his co-host doesn't seem to follow basketball much, so it was Bickley driving the discussion. The co-host only seemed to chime in occasionally asking questions for Bickley to answer about what the Suns need to happen with the lottery in order to help them and Bickley started the talk by saying they didn't need to win, which I can understand and agree with because getting a top 2 or 3 pick so they could grab Morant would have been a win for the Suns, and a more realistic expectation for fans to hope and wish for.

The co-host started talking about Zion's size and build and he brought up the sneaker blowout, not blaming Zion for that but curious if that was due to Zion's size or just a fluke and Bickley brushed that off as a fluke. I agreed with most everything he was saying until he spit out the Center nonsense. If I didn't agree with his takes then I understood why he felt the way he did, it was all reasonable up until then. The way he said Zion was a Center was odd, it might have even been a joke but the way hist co-host didn't laugh or sell it that way sort of said it wasn't a joke on Bickley's part. I've never been a fan of his, but that comment sort of reinforced what I always thought about him, he's just not nearly as knowledgable about basketball as he tries to portray himself. He's like a fair weather fan who happens to be an analyst and since the Suns suck it exposes some of his lack of knowledge. He says some stupid things that seem to disregard the salary cap, luxury tax, or why another team would make a trade he suggests. He's a homer, which is also why his views are slanted.

I'll see if I can skim over some older shows and find the episode. I know it was during the 1st round of the playoffs, that's all I'm certain of as far as when it took place.

 

[JerkFace]

It was 2-3 weeks ago. It was brief, they were talking about how dominant Zion has been, or rather Bickley was telling his co-host how dominant Zion had been in college. I wish I remembered the date of the show because I was blown away that he would say something so ridiculously wrong. I know his co-host doesn't seem to follow basketball much, so it was Bickley driving the discussion. The co-host only seemed to chime in occasionally asking questions for Bickley to answer about what the Suns need to happen with the lottery in order to help them and Bickley started the talk by saying they didn't need to win, which I can understand and agree with because getting a top 2 or 3 pick so they could grab Morant would have been a win for the Suns, and a more realistic expectation for fans to hope and wish for.

The co-host started talking about Zion's size and build and he brought up the sneaker blowout, not blaming Zion for that but curious if that was due to Zion's size or just a fluke and Bickley brushed that off as a fluke. I agreed with most everything he was saying until he spit out the Center nonsense. If I didn't agree with his takes then I understood why he felt the way he did, it was all reasonable up until then. The way he said Zion was a Center was odd, it might have even been a joke but the way hist co-host didn't laugh or sell it that way sort of said it wasn't a joke on Bickley's part. I've never been a fan of his, but that comment sort of reinforced what I always thought about him, he's just not nearly as knowledgable about basketball as he tries to portray himself. He's like a fair weather fan who happens to be an analyst and since the Suns suck it exposes some of his lack of knowledge. He says some stupid things that seem to disregard the salary cap, luxury tax, or why another team would make a trade he suggests. He's a homer, which is also why his views are slanted.

I'll see if I can skim over some older shows and find the episode. I know it was during the 1st round of the playoffs, that's all I'm certain of as far as when it took place.

That is really odd because the “co-host” is Vince Marotta who is actually the PA guy for the the Suns home games (unless it was a guest host) and is pretty knowledgeable about basketball. It sounds as though it might have been a day when he wasn’t there and they had a guest host. I’m in my car all day every day so I listen a lot but apparently I didn’t hear that conversation because I definitely would of remembered something that crazy. I am actually a fan of the show, I find it to be entertaining for the most part. I didn’t enjoy Bickley when he was teamed with Jurecki on the other station but I think he and Marotta have really good chemistry.

 

[SunsTzu]

I would be interested to see what coops advanced defensive stats would look like. Defenders back then didn’t get much respect unless they were shotblockers

Pretty poor by today's standards, and he only shot above 32% from 3 three times in his career. But even someone like Morey who are heavily involved in analytics don't think much of advanced defensive stats.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/coopemi01.html

 

[JCSunsfan]

Best thing I’ve ever heard about Sarver.

that whole renovation issue in January may have been a wake up call for Sarver. His public reputation had the potential of costing him $100’s of millions. He was being ripped constantly for several weeks on every sports media outlet.

Well. I can hope anyway.

 

[Yuma]

Pretty poor by today's standards, and he only shot above 32% from 3 three times in his career. But even someone like Morey who are heavily involved in analytics don't think much of advanced defensive stats.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/coopemi01.html

I watched almost every Laker game in those days. Cooper always seemed to hit the big shot when it counted, or got streaky hot from three in games. When you are splitting the ball with Worthy, Magic, Kareem, etc., you don't get a lot of shots as it is. Cooper's steals always seemed key, too. Cooper and Worthy were defensively very quick with their hands.

 

[Covert Rain]

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!!!

This just further confirms Sarver doesn't know and has never had any clue what he is doing. He is a terrible owner. Remember he has "owned up" before but then we got more of the same.

It must have took a big helping of humble pie to pick up the phone and call Jerry. At least he values Jerry's experience. I really hope this time (unlike all the other times) Sarver really learned his lesson and is more hands off this time around.

I really like what I heard in the presser with Monty. More so than any of the other coaches in a long time.

 

[Yuma]

This just further confirms Sarver doesn't know and has never had any clue what he is doing. He is a terrible owner. Remember he has "owned up" before but then we got more of the same.

It must have took a big helping of humble pie to pick up the phone and call Jerry. At least he values Jerry's experience. I really hope this time (unlike all the other times) Sarver really learned his lesson and is more hands off this time around.

I really like what I heard in the presser with Monty. More so than any of the other coaches in a long time.

So being a good manager is knowing what you are weak at and asking for help or advice. Sarver calling Colangelo is a plus for Sarver in my book.

 

[Raindog]

Pretty poor by today's standards, and he only shot above 32% from 3 three times in his career. But even someone like Morey who are heavily involved in analytics don't think much of advanced defensive stats.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/coopemi01.html

Cooper was a decent bench player, but a prime example of reputation being elevated by association. Play on a great team full of HOFers and if you contribute something of value every once in a while, people will attribute "greatness" to you, as well.

Kurt Rambis was another blatant example of this. He really was a mediocre stiff, but is somehow remembered for being an all-time "great" role player. If he had spent his career with the Kings or somewhere like that, he wouldn't be remembered for anything more than being one of the dorkiest looking guys in NBA history.

 

[Yuma]

Cooper was a decent bench player, but a prime example of reputation being elevated by association. Play on a great team full of HOFers and if you contribute something of value every once in a while, people will attribute "greatness" to you, as well.

Kurt Rambis was another blatant example of this. He really was a mediocre stiff, but is somehow remembered for being an all-time "great" role player. If he had spent his career with the Kings or somewhere like that, he wouldn't be remembered for anything more than being one of the dorkiest looking guys in NBA history.

He was the Draymond Green of the Lakers. When LA was battling the Celtics every year in the playoffs, he did all the hustle stats, set screens, and tough rebounds. EDIT: No way Kurt is getting a triple double in the playoffs like Draymond though! Just referencing his hustle he is similar to Draymond! There was one finals where they cut to commercial and you got a split second view of Rambis with blood flowing out of the corner of his eye or temple area. They had it cleaned up after the time out.

Wikipedia: "During his playing days, Rambis was a favorite among the Lakers fans because of his status as an overachieving underdog and ultimate team-player. Known for his defensive and rebounding skills, he was remembered in Los Angeles for his all-out effort and willingness to do the "dirty work" that many players do not embrace. Rambis usually wore a thick moustache and thick-rimmed black glasses, prompting Lakers announcer Chick Hearn to nickname him "Superman" (in reference to the character's alter ego, Clark Kent). He finally retired with the Lakers in 1995 after 14 years in the NBA."

Weird stat: Rambis is the all time leading scorer at Santa Clara, where Steve Nash later played. I would have though Steve would have had that record seeing as how he's a much better shooter than Rambis! LOL!

 

[Covert Rain]

So being a good manager is knowing what you are weak at and asking for help or advice. Sarver calling Colangelo is a plus for Sarver in my book.

It absolutely was a plus but probably wasn't an easy call to make.

 

[Yuma]

It absolutely was a plus but probably wasn't an easy call to make.

It is an ego hit, if you take it that way. If I was Sarver, I would just call it due dilligence. I think when you look back at the history of Colangelo and Sarver, Colangelo always seems willing to help. At least as portrayed in the media. I know Sarver seemed earlier on when he dismissed Jerry, that he was just eager to take the reigns of the Suns. It seems like Sarver is getting wiser lately. Sarver is putting more money into the Suns and Mercury with stadium and practice facility spending. It's too bad that through coaching changes, and player personnel changes, the Suns have been spinning their wheels for a long time. At least now, Williams will be here more than a season it seems, so maybe we can start building up the team again.

 

[95pro]

He was the Draymond Green of the Lakers. When LA was battling the Celtics every year in the playoffs, he did all the hustle stats, set screens, and tough rebounds. EDIT: No way Kurt is getting a triple double in the playoffs like Draymond though! Just referencing his hustle he is similar to Draymond! There was one finals where they cut to commercial and you got a split second view of Rambis with blood flowing out of the corner of his eye or temple area. They had it cleaned up after the time out.

Wikipedia: "During his playing days, Rambis was a favorite among the Lakers fans because of his status as an overachieving underdog and ultimate team-player. Known for his defensive and rebounding skills, he was remembered in Los Angeles for his all-out effort and willingness to do the "dirty work" that many players do not embrace. Rambis usually wore a thick moustache and thick-rimmed black glasses, prompting Lakers announcer Chick Hearn to nickname him "Superman" (in reference to the character's alter ego, Clark Kent). He finally retired with the Lakers in 1995 after 14 years in the NBA."

Weird stat: Rambis is the all time leading scorer at Santa Clara, where Steve Nash later played. I would have though Steve would have had that record seeing as how he's a much better shooter than Rambis! LOL!

Wasn't there a Rambis play where he completely laid out, full extension, to save a ball from going out of bounds?

 

[Covert Rain]

It is an ego hit, if you take it that way. If I was Sarver, I would just call it due dilligence. I think when you look back at the history of Colangelo and Sarver, Colangelo always seems willing to help. At least as portrayed in the media. I know Sarver seemed earlier on when he dismissed Jerry, that he was just eager to take the reigns of the Suns. It seems like Sarver is getting wiser lately. Sarver is putting more money into the Suns and Mercury with stadium and practice facility spending. It's too bad that through coaching changes, and player personnel changes, the Suns have been spinning their wheels for a long time. At least now, Williams will be here more than a season it seems, so maybe we can start building up the team again.

There is no question it was if you look at Sarver's past. He has been convinced his way was the right way. Remember his take a business approach to running the FO verses a basketball one? All of his interference in day to day operations, him going scorched earth during ownership meetings?

There is no question it was an ego hit or a big piece of humble pie to go back to the guy that ran it all.

Let's face it, Sarver has done NOTHING to elevate this team or keep it on par with what Jerry had built. Everyone in the league sees it. It came up during the presser with our new coach. We have had players outside the organization trash talk the Suns. We have had trouble attracting free agents and coaches.

I hope Sarver has turned over a new leaf but color me skeptical. Sarver has had more than enough time to evaluate his performance as an owner.

 

[Yuma]

There is no question it was if you look at Sarver's past. He has been convinced his way was the right way. Remember his take a business approach to running the FO verses a basketball one? All of his interference in day to day operations, him going scorched earth during ownership meetings?

There is no question it was an ego hit or a big piece of humble pie to go back to the guy that ran it all.

Let's face it, Sarver has done NOTHING to elevate this team or keep it on par with what Jerry had built. Everyone in the league sees it. It came up during the presser with our new coach. We have had players outside the organization trash talk the Suns. We have had trouble attracting free agents and coaches.

I hope Sarver has turned over a new leaf but color me skeptical. Sarver has had more than enough time to evaluate his performance as an owner.

I am skeptical too. I am hopeful with recent moves. Sarver's recent moves don't fit with past pattern. It doesn't help when fans remember Colangelo kept winning NBA Executive of the year awards. He won 4, I believe, which is huge compared to other execs. Anyone is going to be hard to follow in the wake of that. To fail right after, really makes it obvious. Our best hope as fans is if he is getting wiser. Otherwise we have another 20 to 30 years just like the first ten! I am really hoping he turned a corner.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Ok. I am a Jerry Colangelo fan, but it is pretty clear with the Suns and especially with the Diamondbacks, that he sacrificed team financial stability in the name of pursuing a title. Both teams were in very difficult financial situations when JC stepped away. It would be very easy for a banker to look at that and be critical of Jerry Colangelo as a business man and think he could do it better.

Of course, what a good franchise needs is both sound financial and basketball decisions. Its just that sometimes they seem to be mutually exclusive. The salary cap is supposed to help with that, but it still has huge flaws.

 

[Covert Rain]

Ok. I am a Jerry Colangelo fan, but it is pretty clear with the Suns and especially with the Diamondbacks, that he sacrificed team financial stability in the name of pursuing a title. Both teams were in very difficult financial situations when JC stepped away. It would be very easy for a banker to look at that and be critical of Jerry Colangelo as a business man and think he could do it better.

Of course, what a good franchise needs is both sound financial and basketball decisions. Its just that sometimes they seem to be mutually exclusive. The salary cap is supposed to help with that, but it still has huge flaws.

The partners for the D-backs cared more about profit than winning titles. Jerry to his credit was all about bringing titles here. He didn't get it done with the Suns. Also, I believe at the time of the Suns sale, financially the team was healthy even though there was word Sarver wanted a leaner bottom line. It sold for a record $401 million. It wasn't the same scenario with the D-backs who had to shed salary because the partners were demanding it.

Sometimes it sucks being a smaller market team.

 

[Yuma]

Ok. I am a Jerry Colangelo fan, but it is pretty clear with the Suns and especially with the Diamondbacks, that he sacrificed team financial stability in the name of pursuing a title. Both teams were in very difficult financial situations when JC stepped away. It would be very easy for a banker to look at that and be critical of Jerry Colangelo as a business man and think he could do it better.

Of course, what a good franchise needs is both sound financial and basketball decisions. Its just that sometimes they seem to be mutually exclusive. The salary cap is supposed to help with that, but it still has huge flaws.

Wow! I never thought of it that way. The dbacks it was successful since it resulted in World Series rings. For the Suns, I don't think they were in the same boat. It did rear it's banker's head when Joe Johnson came up for a big contract. Sarver decided not to give him one. Some argue that cost us a shot at another finals appearance. I can see as a banker, where that didn't seem to make sense to Sarver. He later was reluctant on Amare. He did spend the bucks on Nash and on Booker. I think I end up being middle of the road on Sarver. He is not the evil person most fans think. He's also not the best owner by far.

 

[Hoop Head]

The partners for the D-backs cared more about profit than winning titles. Jerry to his credit was all about bringing titles here. He didn't get it done with the Suns. Also, I believe at the time of the Suns sale, financially the team was healthy even though there was word Sarver wanted a leaner bottom line. It sold for a record $401 million. It wasn't the same scenario with the D-backs who had to shed salary because the partners were demanding it.

Sometimes it sucks being a smaller market team.

It sold for a record amount but Sarver took on a team that was $200 million in debt. They were not in a good spot financially. This article isn't about the debt specifically but it does mention it. I'm only posting it to back up the debt figure so if anyone wants to complain about the headline or other content in the article, they can save it.

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2019/03/28/phoenix-suns-fans-give-robert-sarver-one-more-chance/

 

[JCSunsfan]

It sold for a record amount but Sarver took on a team that was $200 million in debt. They were not in a good spot financially. This article isn't about the debt specifically but it does mention it. I'm only posting it to back up the debt figure so if anyone wants to complain about the headline or other content in the article, they can save it.

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2019/03/28/phoenix-suns-fans-give-robert-sarver-one-more-chance/

https://azdailysun.com/suns-to-be-s...cle_2060dd57-e95c-5153-815a-d6eba420f45b.html

It's here too. It looks to me like when Sarver took over the team, he paid $400 million. $200 million of that was to cover debt, and the rest paid off the old ownership group. I am not sure how that debt was viewed at the time--whether it was business as usual for an NBA team, or if it was something that was bearing down on the ownership that they had to fix.

 

[Yuma]

What is funny is back then people were like ,"He paid WHAT for the Suns?" Now you can't touch an NBA team for anywhere like that!