Suns lose again

[sunsfan88]

I agree with Cheese once again. Winning a bit and fighting for a playoff spot is, in my opinion, part of their development.

I agree as well and this is basically what David Griffin said as well

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[Chaplin]

wouldn't that be good for the young guys... to get that competitve taste in their mouth earlier than later? I mean, if it's Tyler Johnson and a 27-33 win season or Conley and a shot at 40-45 wins, I don't see why we'd want the former. Especially if we were still able to draft Morant and getting Conley wouldn't cost us much in the way of mortgaging the future, sending Johnson, TJ and say a lotto protected first their way or the Milwaukee pick.

The difference is that I’m not sure Conley gets us 40 wins.

I’m not 100% against him, I just think we need to keep our eyes on the bigger picture.

And that’s even assuming we could trade for him in the first place. I’m very pessimistic about the Suns doing something as major as trading for Conley.

 

[Yuma]

The difference is that I’m not sure Conley gets us 40 wins.

I’m not 100% against him, I just think we need to keep our eyes on the bigger picture.

And that’s even assuming we could trade for him in the first place. I’m very pessimistic about the Suns doing something as major as trading for Conley.

Trade the number seven pick we are going to get.

 

[BC867]

To what purpose? To possibly compete for an 8th playoff seed? It's not like Conley will be around when we are relevant.

Another example of all or nothing. If Conley can help this young team and return Book to Shooting Guard, why turn a blind eye?

Competing for an 8th playoff seed, after year after year after year of not even doing that would be a step in the right direction. It should have happened 6-8 years ago.

It has to start somewhere. Especially if continuing the same ol' status quo will piss off Book, Ayton and the other Suns who have shown life the latter part of this season.

What positive is your post offering, Chap? "It's not like Conley will be around when we are relevant." ? We haven't been relevant in a decade, with no change in sight.

What good is saying 'no' to everything? What good is supporting what the owners have done to our team? And shooting down any suggestions for improvement?

Edit: In continuing after your post, I see that David Griffin agrees. I called it not advocating "all or nothing". He called it, "We have to make small wins every day."

 

[Krangodnzr]

I was anti-Conley but after the events of this season, just being competitive would be really good for this franchise.

How long will Booker take this crap? Hes wasting really good years on a crap team.

Tyler Johnson and TJ Warren might get it done. Screw it, attach the Bucks pick.

 

[Mainstreet]

If the trade for Conley is Warren, Johnson and the Bucks pick, it would really pique the interest of the Grizzlies if they could flip Warren for a first round pick with a third team.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Conley’s contract expires in 2 years and that’s the best part about it as hopefully Morant or perhaps Okobo/Melton will be ready to take the reigns by then.

agreed. Assuming we could draft Morant and trade for Conley, Conley would kinda be like training wheels and once his contract is up, hopefully Morant is ready to ride this sucker and speed them towards actual contendership (yes, I know that's not a word!).

 

[Chaplin]

agreed. Assuming we could draft Morant and trade for Conley, Conley would kinda be like training wheels and once his contract is up, hopefully Morant is ready to ride this sucker and speed them towards actual contendership (yes, I know that's not a word!).

That's nice and all, but it totally sacrifices our other huge need.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That's nice and all, but it totally sacrifices our other huge need.

Why? Our BIGGEST need beyond anything else is PG, right? If we're able to draft Morant and make a deal for Conley that's in the neighborhood of Johnson's 20 million dollar expiring, Warren's 10 million dollar per contract and a 1st round pick, we would be set at PG both in the present and future.

And Conley's contract wouldn't choke our cap much more than Johnson's 19 million/Warren's 11 million/1st round pick would, right? Which means we'd have a similar amount of cap room in either scenario to try and go after a PF... assuming that's the other huge need, which it is.

 

[Chaplin]

how so? Our BIGGEST need beyond anything else is PG. And if we're able to draft Morant and make a deal that's in the neighborhood of Johnson's 20 million dollar expiring, Warren's 10 million dollar per contract and a 1st round pick, we're staring at probably the exact same amount of cap space with Conley who's salary would match those two guys and then we'd use the same amount of space to try and get a PF?

There's not a lot of space there, and it's arguable that what we COULD get won't be any better than TJ Warren.

 

[Yuma]

Our biggest need is:
1. New owner
2. Experienced GM
3. Championship level Coach
4. PG
5. PF

 

[Cheesebeef]

There's not a lot of space there,

the cap space is almost identical in either scenario Chap, whether we have Conley or Warren/Johnson so what's the difference? At least with Conley we know we have someone that can actually run the team and take care of one massive hole. With Conley on the team, you have 31 million dollars in cap space taken up. With Johnson/Warren those guys combine to take up 30 million dollars in cap space. Either way, the amount of money to go out and get a PF is going to be pretty much exactly the same.

and it's arguable that what we COULD get won't be any better than TJ Warren.

Not sure I understand what you're saying here. It's arguable that what we could get won't be any better than Warren? Do you mean as a PF because he'll be gone? Super confused at this last statement.

 

[Chaplin]

there's not a lot of space in either scenario Chap, whether we have Conley or Warren/Johnson so what's the difference? At least with Conley we know we have someone that can actually run the team and take care of one massive hole. We don't have a lot of space to go get a PF in either scenario. With Conley on the team, you have 31 million dollars in cap space taken up. With Johnson/Warren those guys combine to take up 30 million dollars in cap space. Either way, the amount of money to go out and get a PF is going to be pretty much exactly the same.



Not sure I understand what you're saying here. It's arguable that what we could get won't be any better than Warren? Do you mean as a PF because he'll be gone? Super confused at this last statement.

You are making some good points, and I am not 100% against Conley. You are also touting the numbers to be part of a free agency acquisition for a PF. Our ability to trade for one would be gone. I think I'm just expecting that we are not going to get something good in free agency, no matter what position we go for.

Obviously are best scenario is getting Zion, then spend whatever other resources we have to get a PG like Conley, which I'd be in favor for, because our timeline would be different with Zion than it would be with Morant.

I just think at this point, if we draft Morant we just go with him and see what happens. By the time we are ready to actually compete, with or without Conley, Morant will be pretty close to taking the reins anyway. I would be more interested in someone like Tyus Jones--someone who isn't going to break the bank and could possibly not have a problem sharing time with a rookie.

Conley is a pretty expensive route to "respectability." I like him, I'm just trying to convince myself that if we can't get him, I'll be satisfied -- we have no idea whatsoever what Memphis would want, even if we all think Tyler, Warren and the Bucks pick is worth it. None of those assets are very conducive to a rebuild, which is exactly what Memphis will be doing, especially if they want to get rid of Conley. A lot of things have to go right: We get Morant, Memphis will take what we offer, Conley will be happy with such a trade, etc.

 

[Yuma]

I just think at this point, if we draft Morant we just go with him and see what happens. By the time we are ready to actually compete, with or without Conley, Morant will be pretty close to taking the reins anyway. I would be more interested in someone like Tyus Jones--someone who isn't going to break the bank and could possibly not have a problem sharing time with a rookie.

I am in with Morant starting and getting a PF in free agency. If we drop down to 6 or 7 let's go PF in draft and PG in free agency.

 

[Chaplin]

I am in with Morant starting and getting a PF in free agency. If we drop down to 6 or 7 let's go PF in draft and PG in free agency.

If you want a decent point guard, free agency is not the way to go at this point. We don't have the money or the draw to sign a good PG outright.

 

[Yuma]

If you want a decent point guard, free agency is not the way to go at this point. We don't have the money or the draw to sign a good PG outright.

I do like Coby White, but I have seen mocks where he goes number 5.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You are making some good points, and I am not 100% against Conley. You are also touting the numbers to be part of a free agency acquisition for a PF. Our ability to trade for one would be gone. I think I'm just expecting that we are not going to get something good in free agency, no matter what position we go for.

Obviously are best scenario is getting Zion, then spend whatever other resources we have to get a PG like Conley, which I'd be in favor for, because our timeline would be different with Zion than it would be with Morant.

I just think at this point, if we draft Morant we just go with him and see what happens. By the time we are ready to actually compete, with or without Conley, Morant will be pretty close to taking the reins anyway. I would be more interested in someone like Tyus Jones--someone who isn't going to break the bank and could possibly not have a problem sharing time with a rookie.

Conley is a pretty expensive route to "respectability." I like him, I'm just trying to convince myself that if we can't get him, I'll be satisfied -- we have no idea whatsoever what Memphis would want, even if we all think Tyler, Warren and the Bucks pick is worth it. None of those assets are very conducive to a rebuild, which is exactly what Memphis will be doing, especially if they want to get rid of Conley. A lot of things have to go right: We get Morant, Memphis will take what we offer, Conley will be happy with such a trade, etc.

gotcha.

I really don't expect us to be able to do much in FA either way.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If you want a decent point guard, free agency is not the way to go at this point. We don't have the money or the draw to sign a good PG outright.

agree.

 

[Hoop Head]

I do like Coby White, but I have seen mocks where he goes number 5.

Do those mocks have the Suns picking in the top 5? That's the only way I see White going that high. I think he'll end up going between 5 & 10 but that depends on who falls where. The Suns likely have Zion and Morant as their #1 and #2 on their big board with #3 being Barrett but he's more of an asset than a long term piece, IMO. White is probably right after Barrett as he actually fits with this team but taking him at #3 or #4 would be reaching, IMO, and I don't think he's BPA at that point but considering that BPA will probably be a wing and one without the trade value of Barrett I think we shouldn't worry so much about taking the best player available and take White, who would be the best player for this team and only a small reach if we're picking #4 or #5, of course #6 or #7 for him makes more sense.

 

[JCSunsfan]

If you want a decent point guard, free agency is not the way to go at this point. We don't have the money or the draw to sign a good PG outright.

You don’t think a pg would look at a lineup of Book, Oubre, Ayton, and Mikal and think he might like to try to make that a go?

I would think that should be intriguing, but it may just be that today’s free agent players would prefer to just join teams that are already winners.

If we get Ja, I think I am fine with Tyler being the vet that he plays behind for a bit. Go after the pf in free agency.

 

[Yuma]

If we get Ja, I think I am fine with Tyler being the vet that he plays behind for a bit. Go after the pf in free agency.

I am liking this, but if Ja and White are gone at our pick, then we have a lot of work to do. Last thing we need is another SF which this draft seems stocked with.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You don’t think a pg would look at a lineup of Book, Oubre, Ayton, and Mikal and think he might like to try to make that a go?

to be honest... with Sarver as Owner, an HC who hasn't proved anything (and somehow placed second in a survey of coaches you'd least like to play for) and a rookie GM... no. Only way a PG worth signing comes here under those circumstances is if we offered them the moon money-wise. And we don't have the moon to offer.

I would think that should be intriguing, but it may just be that today’s free agent players would prefer to just join teams that are already winners.

any day's free agents would prefer to go anywhere but a 19 win team saddled with one of the worst owners in the sports, especially if we can't outbid other teams. Remember, when Nash signed here, the team didn't just have young talent, they won 29 games, still had Jerry Colangelo as the face of the organization AND we significantly outbid Dallas. None of those factors are in play with us right now.

If we get Ja, I think I am fine with Tyler being the vet that he plays behind for a bit. Go after the pf in free agency.

we're gonna be bargain hunting at either position, but if we get Ja, I'd be okay with the above simply because reality is we're pretty hamstrung to do anything else.

 

[Chaplin]

we're gonna be bargain hunting at either position, but if we get Ja, I'd be okay with the above simply because reality is we're pretty hamstrung to do anything else.

This to me is the most likely scenario at #2. Then I would have no problem using our tradable assets like Warren, Jackson and/or the Bucks pick--even our 2nd rounder is high enough to have at least SOME value, to get a better than average PF, if one even exists out there that we can get.

Free Agency is a dud as far as I'm concerned. I don't expect anything to come of it whatsoever.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think we'll be able to find a decent PG in free agency but not anyone who will please everyone. It depends on if we can make a draft day deal that involves Tyler Johnson and Warren also as that will open up more money for free agency as well. We'll see what happens there but I'm not expecting a Kemba type player, more of a Rubio or Collison type of steady veteran PG instead of a potential All-Star.

One possibility if we strike out elsewhere, Jeff Teague opted into the final year of his contract in Minnesota at $19 million. They like Derrick Rose and want to retain him and Tyus Jones is a restricted free agent so they'll need to pay 2 guys this summer and keeping Rose and resigning him to rejoing a crowded backcourt might be an issue. Jones is restricted but I would think they don't want him telling the Wolves not to match, whether they intend to or not. How much will they match for him if they're paying Teague $19 million already? They're at the cap as it is so they'll basically spent their money of keeping Rose for the MLE if he does stay. Jones could set them into the tax if they don't move Teague. I'd offer Warren and our 2nd rounder for Teague or Tyler Johnson and the Bucks pick for Teague. One or the other.

The Warren deal sheds about $7 million from their cap, factoring in $1 million for the 2nd round pick, and they'll need that to keep Rose and Jones without approaching the tax. Tyler Johnson's salary matches but it clears the logjam. Having a combo guard would work better for their logjam, with Johnson capable of playing some PG for when Rose inevitable goes down. They also add a pick to get Teague gone a year sooner. They save a little more because Johnson's cap hit is higher than his paid salary because of how the contract he signed was structured. I'm not sure how much but for a team approaching the tax that will help them. Having a future 1st is something their new GM would probably like also, even if it is a later 1st.

Teague isn't ideal but since he's only got a year left on his deal he's not the long term solution either but provides us with a veteran to help Ja, if that's our pick, or that keeps us from needing to scour free agency looking for the best PG possible to sign and then hoping we can afford it. If Teague works out then we can resign him next year on a better contract, if we didn't get Ja. If we do draft Ja then we might be able to flip Teague at the deadline, like the team talked about with Tyler Johnson and what can be done with his contract. Teague would be the more attractive player if a playoff team is looking to add a PG at the deadline next year.

 

[Mainstreet]

You don’t think a pg would look at a lineup of Book, Oubre, Ayton, and Mikal and think he might like to try to make that a go?

I would think that should be intriguing, but it may just be that today’s free agent players would prefer to just join teams that are already winners.

If we get Ja, I think I am fine with Tyler being the vet that he plays behind for a bit. Go after the pf in free agency.

I'm fine going with Morant, Johnson and a veteran at point guard going forward. Keeping Oubre and adding a power forward should be the second priority.

Johnson's expiring contract should be valuable to the Suns going forward. They might even be able to re-sign him to a reasonable contract the following season.

I do like Conley but if the Suns draft Morant and keep Johnson they should be solid with the addition of another low cost veteran at point guard.