2018-19 Season | Point Guard Discussion

AzStevenCal

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I’m curious who you picture when you make that description?

We won't find someone that excels at all those things, I've already acknowledged that. I just don't want someone who excels at one of them and sucks at everything else. And at a minimum, he needs to be a threat to shoot, score and pass. If you have to sacrifice in one area, it's defense IMO. But I'd rather not sacrifice. A point guard that can pass and defend but is not a threat to shoot or score is too much of a liability in today's game IMO.
 

Mainstreet

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The moves they made were good but I wonder if they were counting on getting a PG in the draft. Knight is just so bad and the collection of cast offs from last season just isn't NBA starter material. Going into the season with these guys is like the Cards starting Drew Stanton. Sure you might win a few but this is NOT a formula for success.

It's a good question. Shai was available at #11 so they could have drafted him if they desired. My guess is the Suns have/had another target in a trade or free agency. I'm out of guesses at the moment. I don't mind giving Knight an opportunity at PG but being dependent on him is not a smart thing. I keep hoping the Suns have something on the back burner.
 

Yuma

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Cotton used to say" just give me the 5 best players and I'll figure it out"

A good coach can work with what he Gots and I think Igor is a good coach.

But your right the roster is very lopsided at this point so we will see
Not saying we have a Lebron, but he doesn't really need a PG in the 4th qtr. You tend to get your best player the ball down the stretch,so I am not too worried about getting a PG at this point. That said, Okoboe and Harrison were getting some nice lobs into Ayton during Summer League. I could wait for a PG until next draft, or when we free up cap space next season. It is going to take a year to work Ayton and Bridges into the mix as it is. Ayton needs Corliss to teach him how to post up for the entry pass. Ayton is really raw to me. That said, I see a HUGE upside! I am just not in the camp we need to jettison players and picks to get a PG NOW!
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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We won't find someone that excels at all those things, I've already acknowledged that. I just don't want someone who excels at one of them and sucks at everything else. And at a minimum, he needs to be a threat to shoot, score and pass. If you have to sacrifice in one area, it's defense IMO. But I'd rather not sacrifice. A point guard that can pass and defend but is not a threat to shoot or score is too much of a liability in today's game IMO.
Yeah I get that you’re not saying he has to excel at each but just be competent at each. I’m curious who fits that bill today. There’s Paul who is great at all, obviously that’s not what you’re expecting. A Beverly wouldn’t fit it as he’s not a passer. A rondo wouldn’t fit as he’s not a shooter. Maybe a colliison?
 

AzStevenCal

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Yeah I get that you’re not saying he has to excel at each but just be competent at each. I’m curious who fits that bill today. There’s Paul who is great at all, obviously that’s not what you’re expecting. A Beverly wouldn’t fit it as he’s not a passer. A rondo wouldn’t fit as he’s not a shooter. Maybe a colliison?

There's a lot that fit that bill but none that I'm aware of that are available except for maybe Goran. That's why I said I'd rather just deal with the less than perfect point guards we have now and look to find a better option in the future. I'm okay with settling for a slight step up (George Hill for example), as long as the cost isn't prohibitive. But I don't want to go in search of a mono-skilled pg.
 
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taz02

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They are going to roll with the guys they have, sign Dragic after next season, it'll be Nash 2.0..
 

Yuma

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There's a lot that fit that ball but none that I'm aware of that are available except for maybe Goran. That's why I said I'd rather just deal with the less than perfect point guards we have now and look to find a better option in the future. I'm okay with settling for a slight step up (George Hill for example), as long as the cost isn't prohibitive. But I don't want to go in search of a mono-skilled pg.
I totally agree. The PG market was not deep this off season. I think we can be patient and see what happens before the trade deadline.
 

Superbone

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It's a good question. Shai was available at #11 so they could have drafted him if they desired. My guess is the Suns have/had another target in a trade or free agency. I'm out of guesses at the moment. I don't mind giving Knight an opportunity at PG but being dependent on him is not a smart thing. I keep hoping the Suns have something on the back burner.
The Suns didn't draft again until 16th so Shai was not an option. The only reason they got Bridges is because the Sixers' 1b player was still available at 16.
 

BC867

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I’d rather have Knight at PG than Booker and I can’t stand Knight. He’ll be on the ball a lot but I’d like to see increased efficiency and improved defense next year from Book. He shouldn’t be carrying the load from a facilitating aspect.
Didn't we read that if Knight is PG, it would be just to bring the ball up and defend? Once he crosses center court on offense . . . . . who knows?

I think the Suns would be better off with a legitimate Point Guard to quarterback the offense than any or all of the other four sharing the distribution load. We saw what happened to Ayton in the exhibition (I mean Summer League) series. No bueno!
 

Phrazbit

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Even if Dragic wanted to return I doubt the Suns would want him. He buried the knife pretty deep. I don't see Dragic as a fit with Booker anyway. Dragic is not a distributor and he is an awful defender.

As for PGs that are at least competent at everything... Collison is the obvious answer. He's on a contract that leaves us with options next summer and IF the Pacers were looking to move him he probably wouldn't cost much to get. But... I kinda doubt the Pacers put him on the market, we need to hope either Aaron Holiday blows them away and they think he's ready to start from day one or that they start off reeeeeally bad and decide to cash out early.

George Hill would be another but he's not as good as Collison and he is being payed a lot more, so much that making the salaries work would require the Suns to send like 16 million back the other way.
 

sunsfan88

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It would be great if we manage to get Dragic somehow.
If Miami gets desperate to dump salary then yeah this would make a lot of sense as I think we can use Chandler’s expiring and maybe a smaller salary to make it work salary cap wise.

Igor is obviously a big Dragic fan having helped him grow as a player and also the in the summer basketball they played last year when they won the championship. I’m sure it would help him as a coach to have a very familiar player playing a role in his offense when he’s trying to implement his system.

Dragic has already said that him and Sarver talked after the trade and made up on any hard feelings between them two. And McD has already said that he’s talked with Dragic last season as well and that there is no longer any bad blood between the two. If Goran can teach and help Okobo grow as a player then that would be an added bonus as well.
 
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Errntknght

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Don't you guys have any confidence in Kokoskov? By the end of training camp he will have Okobo and Harrison feeding Ayton in the post just fine - that's an obvious step 1, and it doesn't require anything but ordinary passes. The harder part is getting Ayton to set himself correctly and the passers getting themselves to the right spot so they have the angle to make the pass. That's not rocket science. The pick and roll is harder and I wouldn't expect to see them making the creative passes that Milos does routinely in that setting. But when the simple pass is all that's required, I think that will work fine. Harrison misread of couple of lobs to Ayton (the latter being too well defended) but he made several that were right on target, so he can make the lob pass. Okobo I didn't get a read on for lob passing as he didn't play that much with Ayton.

We didn't see Igor's 'motion' offense in SL so I don't worry too much about Harrison freelancing and taking some ill advised shots. Even so he shot 24 / 53 = 45% and 4/9 from 3 - nothing like Jackson's display of horrors, for example, yet no ones is overly concerned about JJ.
 

Phrazbit

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Don't you guys have any confidence in Kokoskov? By the end of training camp he will have Okobo and Harrison feeding Ayton in the post just fine - that's an obvious step 1, and it doesn't require anything but ordinary passes. The harder part is getting Ayton to set himself correctly and the passers getting themselves to the right spot so they have the angle to make the pass. That's not rocket science. The pick and roll is harder and I wouldn't expect to see them making the creative passes that Milos does routinely in that setting. But when the simple pass is all that's required, I think that will work fine. Harrison misread of couple of lobs to Ayton (the latter being too well defended) but he made several that were right on target, so he can make the lob pass. Okobo I didn't get a read on for lob passing as he didn't play that much with Ayton.

We didn't see Igor 'motion' offense in SL so I don't worry too much about Harrison freelancing and taking some ill advised shots. Even so he shot 24 / 53 = 45% and 4/9 from 3 - nothing like Jackson's display of horrors, for example, yet no ones is overly concerned about JJ.

I have confidence in Kokosov but I don't think it's that easy.

I disagree with you that developing as a passer is easier than developing as a defender. From what I've seen if a player has the athletic ability and, most importantly, is willing to buy into a system they can become a serviceable, if not good, defender. While, developing as a distributor is really slow going, unless the guy shows high level court vision right off the bat and I haven't seen that from Okobo and Harrison.

Harrison was able to toss a lob here and there, but an entry pass or a pass in traffic are clearly not in his bag of tricks right now.
 

sunsfan88

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UGGH. I don't want a pass first point guard. I don't want a defense first point guard. I don't even want a score first point guard. I just want a point guard that can shoot, score, pass, direct an offense and defend his position. He doesn't need to be great at any of them, just a well balanced point guard. If we can't have a complete point guard, I see no reason to chase another specialist, just stay with the limited skills guards we already have.
One that’s close to meeting all these requirements and may actually be attainable would be Kyle Lowry. He has a huge contract for the next 2 years and the Raptors are reportedly looking to trade him and/or DeRozan. I’m not a huge fan however as his play can be very inconsistent.
 

Errntknght

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I have confidence in Kokosov but I don't think it's that easy.

I disagree with you that developing as a passer is easier than developing as a defender. From what I've seen if a player has the athletic ability and, most importantly, is willing to buy into a system they can become a serviceable, if not good, defender. While, developing as a distributor is really slow going, unless the guy shows high level court vision right off the bat and I haven't seen that from Okobo and Harrison.

Harrison was able to toss a lob here and there, but an entry pass or a pass in traffic are clearly not in his bag of tricks right now.

Harrison is already a serviceable point guard if you going to bring things down to that level. But if you're talking about a player developing into something remotely comparable to Harrison as a defender, it basically never happens.
I haven't seen signs of especially good court vision from Okobo or Harrison and it's unlikely they'll develop it, IMO. But they can both make the simple pass and don't attempt passes
that are beyond their skill level. Like I mentioned we haven't seen Igor's 'motion' offense but if it's anything like I'm expecting, it won't require exquisite passing skills - after all, the whole team is expected to make the required passes. That should be a piece of cake for either of them.
They will run the pick and roll - the national team that Igor coached did that - and they are not going to run that great. For the national team Doncic was the ballhandler in the P&R, and he was very good at it. He's going to have lower his sights with this team because we have no one that passes as well as Doncic did. I'd expect Okobo to have the most experience at it and probably be the best of our current players - he's not a great passer but he doesn't get rattled and he can shoot if they give him room. Harrison will drive off it, like we saw him doing in SL, but he scored at a decent rate - and we'll be giving them different looks.

They will also feed Ayton in the post. Now feeding into the post in general is challenging but Ayton is a very large target or he will be when he learns to give himself a wide base and seal his man better. Harrison in particular tried to make the entry pass when he shouldn't have and it did fail in those cases. He does have to learn when to abort the play because the pass isn't there and he has to work on the timing of the pass to get it into a narrow window. It's not something like learning floor vision - it's a simple pass as long as he gets the timing right. Ayton can help by moving toward the pass, too, when he hasn't sealed his defender.
 

Phrazbit

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Harrison is already a serviceable point guard if you going to bring things down to that level. But if you're talking about a player developing into something remotely comparable to Harrison as a defender, it basically never happens.
I haven't seen signs of especially good court vision from Okobo or Harrison and it's unlikely they'll develop it, IMO. But they can both make the simple pass and don't attempt passes
that are beyond their skill level. Like I mentioned we haven't seen Igor's 'motion' offense but if it's anything like I'm expecting, it won't require exquisite passing skills - after all, the whole team is expected to make the required passes. That should be a piece of cake for either of them.
They will run the pick and roll - the national team that Igor coached did that - and they are not going to run that great. For the national team Doncic was the ballhandler in the P&R, and he was very good at it. He's going to have lower his sights with this team because we have no one that passes as well as Doncic did. I'd expect Okobo to have the most experience at it and probably be the best of our current players - he's not a great passer but he doesn't get rattled and he can shoot if they give him room. Harrison will drive off it, like we saw him doing in SL, but he scored at a decent rate - and we'll be giving them different looks.

They will also feed Ayton in the post. Now feeding into the post in general is challenging but Ayton is a very large target or he will be when he learns to give himself a wide base and seal his man better. Harrison in particular tried to make the entry pass when he shouldn't have and it did fail in those cases. He does have to learn when to abort the play because the pass isn't there and he has to work on the timing of the pass to get it into a narrow window. It's not something like learning floor vision - it's a simple pass as long as he gets the timing right. Ayton can help by moving toward the pass, too, when he hasn't sealed his defender.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I do think you're putting a LOT of stock in summer league, which is basically a glorified practice and one where the majority of the players will never play in a meaningful NBA game. We're talking about a guy who didn't even start much in the G-League last year, who is a poor outside shooter and who doesn't even have a guaranteed contract. I cannot say with any certainty that Harrison or Okobo are good at anything at the NBA level, but I think, especially early, they're going to struggle mightily as playmakers. Harrison didn't just struggle with entry passes, there were several plays every game where they ran a pick and he didn't even seem aware of how the defense played it other than the man in front of him.

I expect no matter who is the point guard, when we're in half court sets, Booker will be handling the ball a lot and most pick and rolls will be ran through he and Ayton. Which is fine. And like I said, if we're unable to find a multidimensional PG, I'd rather stick with Harrison.

I do expect Harrison will get a chance to prove himself this year. Okobo on the other hand... I think it's going to take some injuries for him to see much of the court, after a nice few shifts in the opener he crashed back down to earth. I like the pick, high upside, but I think he's a ways away from being ready. Unless Knight gets hurt then Okobo will probably play more in the G League than here next year.
 

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The Suns didn't draft again until 16th so Shai was not an option. The only reason they got Bridges is because the Sixers' 1b player was still available at 16.

I was only saying the Suns had an opportunity to address a PG early in the draft if they were so inclined at #10. Shai was available where the Suns took Bridges. The PG options were not as good at #16 (which they traded). Obviously the Suns liked Bridges better.
 

SirStefan32

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I was only saying the Suns had an opportunity to address a PG early in the draft if they were so inclined at #10. Shai was available where the Suns took Bridges. The PG options were not as good at #16 (which they traded). Obviously the Suns liked Bridges better.

The Suns did not "take" Bridges. They traded for him. Bridges being available via trade does not mean Shai was available via trade.
 

Mainstreet

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The Suns did not "take" Bridges. They traded for him. Bridges being available via trade does not mean Shai was available via trade.

I think we know how the Suns acquired the rights to the 10th pick. They traded #16 and the unprotected Miami pick for it. If you want to get into trading rights, we can do this but I thought it was unnecessary, e.g., the Suns technically did not draft Dragic or Chriss.
 
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I was only saying the Suns had an opportunity to address a PG early in the draft if they were so inclined at #10. Shai was available where the Suns took Bridges. The PG options were not as good at #16 (which they traded). Obviously the Suns liked Bridges better.

I don't think the Suns traded for the 10th pick so much as they traded for Bridges. That is the story that was told by McD. They tried getting Philly to trade the 10th pick, Philly said no, they asked who they were taking and Philly said they liked Bridges and McD said that's also who they intended on picking if they could have gotten the pick. They let them know if they're interested in trading Bridges, let the Suns know. Philly called when the Suns were on the clock at #16 and said if the Suns take Zhaire for them and throw in the Heat pick then they would send Bridges our way. So we really didn't trade for the 10th pick so much as we traded for the player selected with the 10th pick.

We didn't have interest in SGA there or we would have moved on once Philly said they were picking Bridges because we were looking for SGA instead and then proceeded to call the Clippers since he'd still be on the board after the Sixers pick.
 

ColdPickleNachos

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I think we know how the Suns acquired the rights to the 10th pick. They traded #16 and the unprotected Miami pick for it. If you want to get into trading rights, we can do this but I thought it was unnecessary, e.g., the Suns technically did not draft Dragic or Chriss.

My understanding is that the 76ers rejected the Suns at the time of the pick and wanted to draft and keep Bridges. McD said they changed their minds when Zhaire Smith fell to 16. So there is a possible scenario where the Suns had SGA ahead of Bridges on their board, couldn't get a trade from anyone in the 8-12 range, and then traded for the Suns 1b in Bridges because Philly would trade and the Clippers wouldn't.

Of course, they're on the record saying Bridges was their guy, but they would say that regardless.

I'm good with Bridges though. I love his skillset, and the Suns are in a great position to grab a point guard next year. I love that they have cap space in 2019 when a ton of good point guards will be available, and I like that Okobo will have a chance to develop.

The main issue I have with the point guard position for this year is that the veteran starter is a guy I don't trust to set up others and put the team before himself. He's saying all the right things though; I just wouldn't gamble my starting point guard position on a leopard changing his spots.
 

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