Gentry: "Tell Mike D'Antoni he's vindicated!'

[SirStefan32]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2006.html

I'm trying to figure out what stat you are looking at during this season where KT played 50+ games and we were the best defensive team in the NBA. Not an attack, just a question.

Slin is exaggerating, but that team (with both Kurt and Tim Thomas) was actually good defensively and on the boards. problem was that D'Antoni refused to play KT in the playoffs until it was too late. That team was probably closer to winning the title than any other D'Antoni team, with a possible exception of the year JJ got hurt (2004/2005, maybe?).

Disclaimer:
I am recalling this from memory, and my memory is not what it used to be, so it's completely possible I have my years mixed up.

 

[SirStefan32]

As far as the worst example of him not using his bench was the year he refused to play KT and Jalen Rose. They weren't stars at that point, but they still had enough left in the tank to make a difference.

 

[Covert Rain]

Slin is exaggerating, but that team (with both Kurt and Tim Thomas) was actually good defensively and on the boards. problem was that D'Antoni refused to play KT in the playoffs until it was too late. That team was probably closer to winning the title than any other D'Antoni team, with a possible exception of the year JJ got hurt (2004/2005, maybe?).

Disclaimer:
I am recalling this from memory, and my memory is not what it used to be, so it's completely possible I have my years mixed up.

It was a massive exaggeration. I posted the teams defensive points per possession or per 100 earlier in the thread. The team did what is always does and that was occasionaly play defense anchored by one or two above average defenders. It always fell apart because team defensive wasn't as good collectively. The team also fell apart when defensive stops were needed the most.

 

[SirStefan32]

It was a massive exaggeration. I posted the teams defensive points per possession or per 100 earlier in the thread. The team did what is always does and that was occasionaly play defense anchored by one or two above average defenders. It always fell apart because team defensive wasn't as good collectively. The team also fell apart when defensive stops were needed the most.

Well, yeah, it was a massive exaggeration- they sure as hell weren't the second best defensive team, but when two of the trio of Diaw, Tim Thomas, and especially Kurt Thomas were on the floor together, they were a good (not, great, not outstanding, not amazing) defensive team. This also showed up in rebounding. KT was VERY good at blocking out. If I remember correctly, he averaged somewhere between 6 and 8 rebounds per game for that team in 20-some minutes.

Unless I am not remembering this correctly, it wasn't until D'Antoni decided to go small (no KT, Marion at 4, Diaw or TT on 5) that we got demolished. He did give KT some playing time once we were down, but by that time it was too late.

Slin has a point that over the years (during the SSOL era) the Suns did have some defensive lineups, but outside of the year Amare was hurt and we had KT playing 20+ minutes per game, they were never consistently even average on the defensive end. They were certainly not the second best defensive team at any point during SSOL. You cannot be a good defensive team when your PG (Nash) and C (Amare) can't guard a chair.

 

[Phrazbit]

Slin is exaggerating, but that team (with both Kurt and Tim Thomas) was actually good defensively and on the boards. problem was that D'Antoni refused to play KT in the playoffs until it was too late. That team was probably closer to winning the title than any other D'Antoni team, with a possible exception of the year JJ got hurt (2004/2005, maybe?).

Disclaimer:
I am recalling this from memory, and my memory is not what it used to be, so it's completely possible I have my years mixed up.

Similar to how it took D'Antoni roughly 70 games before he finally decided that Gasol and Howard playing at the same time was actually NOT a huge disadvantage.

This notion that he didn't play his bench because he didn't have bench players ignores the reality that D'Antoni wouldn't even play stars together if their skills rested outside of his comfort zone.

 

[SirStefan32]

Similar to how it took D'Antoni roughly 70 games before he finally decided that Gasol and Howard playing at the same time was actually NOT a huge disadvantage.

This notion that he didn't play his bench because he didn't have bench players ignores the reality that D'Antoni wouldn't even play stars together if their skills rested outside of his comfort zone.

Completely agree.

It's D'Antoni's stubbornness that was his downfall.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well, yeah, it was a massive exaggeration- they sure as hell weren't the second best defensive team, but when two of the trio of Diaw, Tim Thomas, and especially Kurt Thomas were on the floor together, they were a good (not, great, not outstanding, not amazing) defensive team. This also showed up in rebounding. KT was VERY good at blocking out. If I remember correctly, he averaged somewhere between 6 and 8 rebounds per game for that team in 20-some minutes.

Unless I am not remembering this correctly, it wasn't until D'Antoni decided to go small (no KT, Marion at 4, Diaw or TT on 5) that we got demolished. He did give KT some playing time once we were down, but by that time it was too late.

Slin has a point that over the years (during the SSOL era) the Suns did have some defensive lineups, but outside of the year Amare was hurt and we had KT playing 20+ minutes per game, they were never consistently even average on the defensive end. They were certainly not the second best defensive team at any point during SSOL. You cannot be a good defensive team when your PG (Nash) and C (Amare) can't guard a chair.

you're misremembering here Stefan. KT and TT never played together because Kurt Thomas unfortunately got hurt with around 20 or so games left in the season and that's when they brought TT in. Rumors were he would have been healthy had they got to the Finals, but he never got back on the court throughout the end of the season/playoffs because of a foot injury.

the bigger problem was the next year when DA blew HCA (as usual to the Spurs) in Game 1 when he started James Freaking Jones in Game 1 of the WCSF and Duncan went nuts. He then finally started KT in Game 2, but he already put us behind the 8-ball in Game 1.

 

[SirStefan32]

you're misremembering here Stefan. KT and TT never played together because Kurt Thomas unfortunately got hurt with around 20 or so games left in the season and that's when they brought TT in. Rumors were he would have been healthy had they got to the Finals, but he never got back on the court throughout the end of the season/playoffs because of a foot injury.

the bigger problem was the next year when DA blew HCA (as usual to the Spurs) in Game 1 when he started James Freaking Jones in Game 1 of the WCSF and Duncan went nuts. He then finally started KT in Game 2, but he already put us behind the 8-ball in Game 1.

Ah, OK. I was mixing up the elements from the two seasons.

 

[Bert]

As far as the worst example of him not using his bench was the year he refused to play KT and Jalen Rose. They weren't stars at that point, but they still had enough left in the tank to make a difference.

I remember that year and that was the year Diaw and Stat got suspended and I remember discussing it with someone and saying; we will only have like 7 guys for that game so he HAS To play Jalen rose right? Nope, played with 6, like a jackass. He was soooo stubborn. I enjoyed those years, they were fun to watch and we were so close, but anyone who doesn't think MDAs ego wasn't his toughest opponent is selling his ego short imo.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

wrong thread

 

[Phrazbit]

How many flipping centers are the 76ers going to take?

They got luck with this one though. He looks like a monster. I think he was the most sure bet in this draft. Towns might develop into the better player but Okafor looks like an interior force from day one.

 

[arthurracoon]

ahhh...feels good to relive the old days

 

[JustWinBaby]

ahhh...feels good to relive the old days

You know what is really amazing. It is hard to comprehend how well the Suns have done since that lame brain D'Antoni left town. Wow, we are just a joy to watch and every free agent is knocking on our door trying to get in. I expect everyone will want to play for Robert Sarver this off season and take a discount to be part of this great franchise.

The Lakers are having similar success since he left. They have only had Dwight Howard leave town, Pau Gasol leave for less money to Chicago, Carmelo stay in New York and now Marc Gasol wants no part of the Lakers due to the problems his brother had in Los Angles. D'Antoni is gone, I cannot understand why he would not want to be coached by the great Byron Scott and criticized for every miss play by Magic Johnson. He also will miss the opportunity to play with one of his brother's reported buddies and future hall of famer, Kobe. Hard to figure what the problem is.

Lastly the New York Knicks are in real fine shape since MDA left as well. The Knicks currently only have to make one pass on the offensive end and if Carmelo can get the shot off without traveling they should lead the league in the least amount of turnovers, that is if he doesn't get called for too many offensive fouls. No more of that nonsense that they ball finds energy in New York. All the ball needs in New York is Melo. They have no need for a PG or anyone else that can shoot. All they have to do is keep Melo healthy. They are rid of that lame brain that said Melo or me. The Knicks are in real fine shape and I expect them to be in the running for several key free agents ....................... I cannot imagine why anyone would not what to play with such a special player, like Carmelo. Why in the world did Kerr choose the Warriors over the Knicks? He just did not realize how special Carmelo really is, I guess.

I understand the league office is extremely pleased that MDA is no longer coaching. He undoubtedly would destroy any other team he would get a chance coach just like he has the Suns, Knicks and Lakers.

 

[Phrazbit]

You know what is really amazing. It is hard to comprehend how well the Suns have done since that lame brain D'Antoni left town. Wow, we are just a joy to watch and every free agent is knocking on our door trying to get in. I expect everyone will want to play for Robert Sarver this off season and take a discount to be part of this great franchise.

The Lakers are having similar success since he left. They have only had Dwight Howard leave town, Pau Gasol leave for less money to Chicago, Carmelo stay in New York and now Marc Gasol wants no part of the Lakers due to the problems his brother had in Los Angles. D'Antoni is gone, I cannot understand why he would not want to be coached by the great Byron Scott and criticized for every miss play by Magic Johnson. He also will miss the opportunity to play with one of his brother's reported buddies and future hall of famer, Kobe. Hard to figure what the problem is.

Lastly the New York Knicks are in real fine shape since MDA left as well. The Knicks currently only have to make one pass on the offensive end and if Carmelo can get the shot off without traveling they should lead the league in the least amount of turnovers, that is if he doesn't get called for too many offensive fouls. No more of that nonsense that they ball finds energy in New York. All the ball needs in New York is Melo. They have no need for a PG or anyone else that can shoot. All they have to do is keep Melo healthy. They are rid of that lame brain that said Melo or me. The Knicks are in real fine shape and I expect them to be in the running for several key free agents ....................... I cannot imagine why anyone would not what to play with such a special player, like Carmelo. Why in the world did Kerr choose the Warriors over the Knicks? He just did not realize how special Carmelo really is, I guess.

I understand the league office is extremely pleased that MDA is no longer coaching. He undoubtedly would destroy any other team he would get a chance coach just like he has the Suns, Knicks and Lakers.

Your continued defense of him inspite of overwhelming evidence of his failures is admirable. And not just that you defend him, but seemingly find him totally blameless for every shortcoming.

 

[Covert Rain]

Your continued defense of him inspite of overwhelming evidence of his failures is admirable. And not just that you defend him, but seemingly find him totally blameless for every shortcoming.

You have to give him credit for unabashed tenacity regardless of how blind it is.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You know what is really amazing. It is hard to comprehend how well the Suns have done since that lame brain D'Antoni left town. Wow, we are just a joy to watch and every free agent is knocking on our door trying to get in. I expect everyone will want to play for Robert Sarver this off season and take a discount to be part of this great franchise.

The Lakers are having similar success since he left. They have only had Dwight Howard leave town, Pau Gasol leave for less money to Chicago, Carmelo stay in New York and now Marc Gasol wants no part of the Lakers due to the problems his brother had in Los Angles. D'Antoni is gone, I cannot understand why he would not want to be coached by the great Byron Scott and criticized for every miss play by Magic Johnson. He also will miss the opportunity to play with one of his brother's reported buddies and future hall of famer, Kobe. Hard to figure what the problem is.

Lastly the New York Knicks are in real fine shape since MDA left as well. The Knicks currently only have to make one pass on the offensive end and if Carmelo can get the shot off without traveling they should lead the league in the least amount of turnovers, that is if he doesn't get called for too many offensive fouls. No more of that nonsense that they ball finds energy in New York. All the ball needs in New York is Melo. They have no need for a PG or anyone else that can shoot. All they have to do is keep Melo healthy. They are rid of that lame brain that said Melo or me. The Knicks are in real fine shape and I expect them to be in the running for several key free agents ....................... I cannot imagine why anyone would not what to play with such a special player, like Carmelo. Why in the world did Kerr choose the Warriors over the Knicks? He just did not realize how special Carmelo really is, I guess.

I understand the league office is extremely pleased that MDA is no longer coaching. He undoubtedly would destroy any other team he would get a chance coach just like he has the Suns, Knicks and Lakers.

I can't deny the truth any longer... JustWinBaby is right and all of us on this board, and literally 30 GMs... in TWO CONSECUTIVE offseasons are completely wrong on DA's ability to coach.

 

[JustWinBaby]

I can't deny the truth any longer... JustWinBaby is right and all of us on this board, and literally 30 GMs... in TWO CONSECUTIVE offseasons are completely wrong on DA's ability to coach.

You guys bring the goods -

Look how horrible all of the franchises that he left are now. He left them in ruins.

What is really amazing is that I do not think anyone really fired him. He resigned from all of these teams.

As bad he was for all of these teams he should have been fired.

His successor at each franchise has done a wonderful job. Obviously the talent was there, Mike just never played those guys.

 

[Covert Rain]

You guys bring the goods -

Look how horrible all of the franchises that he left are now. He left them in ruins.

What is really amazing is that I do not think anyone really fired him. He resigned from all of these teams.

As bad he was for all of these teams he should have been fired.

His successor at each franchise has done a wonderful job. Obviously the talent was there, Mike just never played those guys.

Look at all the fantastic things he did at each stop. Look at the defense of each team in his wake. Clearly we are all wrong. HALL OF FAME...HALL OF FAME!

P.S. You are correct, we shouldn't judge him one bit until he is at least left 5 to 6 teams in his wake. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You guys bring the goods -

Look how horrible all of the franchises that he left are now. He left them in ruins.

The Lakers were horrible WITH him, completely underachieving the year he had Pau, Kobe and Dwight where they were title favorites and barely made the playoffs... and then a 26 win team after him. They're a dumpster fire because Kobe's done. That's what happens at the end of era.

What is really amazing is that I do not think anyone really fired him. He resigned from all of these teams.

So, he's a serial quitter. Great attribute for a head coach.

As bad he was for all of these teams he should have been fired.

His successor at each franchise has done a wonderful job. Obviously the talent was there, Mike just never played those guys.

After DA left the Knicks (after never winning a single playoff game in three years), his successor immediately ripped off a huge winning streak and then actually WON a first round series. Something Mike never did with them.

And after DA left the Suns, they had one down half-season with Porter and then next season got right back to the WCF... you know... the same place DA had gotten them (4 years earlier). And again, the Suns fell apart because of injuries (not wanting to rightly extend Amare) and because Nash got old. That's what happens at the end of eras.

But hey, you want to keep pumping up a coach who you admitted quit every job he's had and has been out in the wilderness for two off-seasons, I guess you're just right and literally everyone else, on this board and in the league is wrong.

 

[zett]

lol cheese beef and Elindholm, are my new hero's! Eric for his classic sigs and cheese for showing BC how wrong he is, depite the same constant rant for what seems like a decade or longer.

 

[slinslin]

Slin is exaggerating, but that team (with both Kurt and Tim Thomas) was actually good defensively and on the boards. problem was that D'Antoni refused to play KT in the playoffs until it was too late. That team was probably closer to winning the title than any other D'Antoni team, with a possible exception of the year JJ got hurt (2004/2005, maybe?).

Disclaimer:
I am recalling this from memory, and my memory is not what it used to be, so it's completely possible I have my years mixed up.

The suns were SECOND in defensive rating until Kurt Thomas got hurt that season.

There is no exaggeration, this is a FACT.

 

[slinslin]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2006.html

I'm trying to figure out what stat you are looking at during this season where KT played 50+ games and we were the best defensive team in the NBA. Not an attack, just a question.

You have to look at the games until Kurt Thomas got injured. We were first for a long time and 2nd in defensive rating when Kurt Thomas was injured.

Our defense crumbled when he was out.

 

[Covert Rain]

The suns were SECOND in defensive rating until Kurt Thomas got hurt that season.

There is no exaggeration, this is a FACT.

NBA for Points Allowed Per Possession or points allowed per 100 possessions for Suns.

• 2003-2004 Suns 24th out of 30.
• 2004-2005 Suns 17th out of 30.
• 2005-2006 Suns 16th out of 30.
• 2006-2007 Suns 13th out of 30.
• 2007-2008 Suns 16th out of 30.

 

[slinslin]

NBA for Points Allowed Per Possession or points allowed per 100 possessions for Suns.

• 2003-2004 Suns 24th out of 29.
• 2004-2005 Suns 17th out of 30.
• 2005-2006 Suns 16th out of 30.
• 2006-2007 Suns 13th out of 30.
• 2007-2008 Suns 16th out of 30.

You have serious reading problems

 

[Covert Rain]

You have serious reading problems

How so....I thought you liked PER? Besides I am jabbing you slinslin. I know what you are saying about Kurth Thomas but overall D'Antoni's overall track record for defense is horrible.