Can Someone Define the "Situation" that this Organization Found Itself In?

[Duckjake]

You're right, we wouldn't have had to draft for need at safety. We only would have had to draft for need at QB, RB, TE, OL, ILB, OLB, CB, and DL.

That's an exaggeration. TE, OLB, CB, RB and DL were not real problem areas for the Cardinals that had to be addressed in the draft. They were and still are positions that could be upgraded or have depth added that's all.

It's also still up in the air as to whether the Cards still have a need at QB and ILB. And they do still have a need at OL. Free Agency didn't address that at all.

 

[kerouac9]

You're right, we wouldn't have had to draft for need at safety. We only would have had to draft for need at QB, RB, TE, OL, ILB, OLB, CB, and DL.

:sigh:

We would have been able to afford Brinkley, Alexander, and Stanton whether we cut Rhodes and Wilson or not. If we'd kept Gay, we would have been still able to sign Cason or Powers, and maybe both.

The most befuddling action of the free agency period has been cutting Wilson and Rhodes loose, and the only explanation is a financial one--specifically 2013 cash savings that conveniently offset the buyouts of the former coaching staff.

We still have needs at QB, TE, OL, and OLB. So what's changed? We released two Pro Bowl safeties to get a 5th defensive lineman?

Sound strategy.

 

[Duckjake]

You can point at a number of things to blame the "situation" the team is in on.

But the biggest part IMO is we had a great QB retire before we expected, AND the QBOF Matt Leinart was a huge bust. Then we went all in on another failed attempt in Kolb. That will set back any franchise.

That sums up how the Cards got into this situation perfectly. You just can't miss on two QBs in just two seasons, one a top 10 first round pick and the other a very highly paid free agent.

 

[roland77]

My thoughts: Whenever a new staff comes in, they always want to bring in "their" guys. This could be players they've coached before, or players they feel fit the mold of who they want for whatever reason; it could be temperament, leadership ability, scheme familiarity, etc... Unfortunately, sometimes, this also means getting rid of previous players that may not fit their mold, be it due to age/salary or whatever.

On paper, I can understand the argument that we haven't gotten much better, if at all, talent-wise, but if Arians/Keim feel like these are the guys they want on the team they are building, I think they should get the benefit of the doubt for now. I think it's reasonable to give them two years to show measurable improvement in the team. They obviously have some sort of plan in place they that are trying to execute and feel is the best way to succeed.

Just getting big-name free agents who were successful on their old team doesn't mean they'll fit in as well on the new team. Just think of the Eagles "dream-team" from 2011 or any Redskins team from 99-2011.

Just my two-cents.

 

[Catfish]

You can point at a number of things to blame the "situation" the team is in on.

But the biggest part IMO is we had a great QB retire before we expected, AND the QBOF Matt Leinart was a huge bust. Then we went all in on another failed attempt in Kolb. That will set back any franchise.

And that is different from saying that Whiz rode Warner to a SB, then began losing players, (like Q, Breaston, and even Warner), without having a timely replacement available for them, how?????

 

[Chopper0080]

:sigh:

We would have been able to afford Brinkley, Alexander, and Stanton whether we cut Rhodes and Wilson or not. If we'd kept Gay, we would have been still able to sign Cason or Powers, and maybe both.

The most befuddling action of the free agency period has been cutting Wilson and Rhodes loose, and the only explanation is a financial one--specifically 2013 cash savings that conveniently offset the buyouts of the former coaching staff.

We still have needs at QB, TE, OL, and OLB. So what's changed? We released two Pro Bowl safeties to get a 5th defensive lineman?

Sound strategy.

Agreed.

 

[Duckjake]

My thoughts: Whenever a new staff comes in, they always want to bring in "their" guys. This could be players they've coached before, or players they feel fit the mold of who they want for whatever reason; it could be temperament, leadership ability, scheme familiarity, etc... Unfortunately, sometimes, this also means getting rid of previous players that may not fit their mold, be it due to age/salary or whatever.

On paper, I can understand the argument that we haven't gotten much better, if at all, talent-wise, but if Arians/Keim feel like these are the guys they want on the team they are building, I think they should get the benefit of the doubt for now. I think it's reasonable to give them two years to show measurable improvement in the team. They obviously have some sort of plan in place they that are trying to execute and feel is the best way to succeed.


Just getting big-name free agents who were successful on their old team doesn't mean they'll fit in as well on the new team. Just think of the Eagles "dream-team" from 2011 or any Redskins team from 99-2011.

Just my two-cents.

Usually that's true. But CKW didn't gut the roster and bring in his guys right away. And the long term Cardinals veterans won 2 NFC West titles and an NFC Championship before the Cards lost most of those players and sunk back into their perennial mediocrity.

 

[Buckybird]

Usually that's true. But CKW didn't gut the roster and bring in his guys right away. And the long term Cardinals veterans won 2 NFC West titles and an NFC Championship before the Cards lost most of those players and sunk back into their perennial mediocrity.

And neither did Harbaugh when he took over the Niners & we know what a terrible team they are right now.

The Niners kept most of their own& drafted well to set up a team that should compete for years for a SB. But not the Cards...5-11 is our destiny at best

Arizona...where coaches, RBs & QBs come to die!!!

 

[Duckjake]

And neither did Harbaugh when he took over the Niners & we know what a terrible team they are right now.

The Niners kept most of their own& drafted well to set up a team that should compete for years for a SB. But not the Cards...5-11 is our destiny at best

Arizona...where coaches, RBs & QBs come to die!!!

Too true. The Cardinals had a major overhaul of their roster just 3 years ago. You can't keep doing that and be competitive in the NFL.

 

[roland77]

Too true. The Cardinals had a major overhaul of their roster just 3 years ago. You can't keep doing that and be competitive in the NFL.

I agree from a Cardinals perspective. But from an Arians/Keim perspective (especially Arians since he just got here), that's not something they can worry about. He needs and should be given a chance to do what he feels will build a competitive team in a realistic time frame.

 

[Duckjake]

I agree from a Cardinals perspective. But from an Arians/Keim perspective (especially Arians since he just got here), that's not something they can worry about. He needs and should be given a chance to do what he feels will build a competitive team in a realistic time frame.

And what has he ever done to earn that? The Greatest Head Coach in Arizona Cardinal History completely dismantled the roster and went 18-30. What make s you think a guy who has never been a HC in 19 years in the NFL can do any better?

 

[kerouac9]

I'll repeat again that I believe people are overrating how much control Bruce Arians has over the shape of the roster. Steve Keim and Michael Bidwill are firmly in control of the personnel.

If we hired a coach who was going to run personnel, why did we just fire a coach who was firmly in control of personnel?

 

[Mulli]

I'll repeat again that I believe people are overrating how much control Bruce Arians has over the shape of the roster. Steve Keim and Michael Bidwill are firmly in control of the personnel.

If we hired a coach who was going to run personnel, why did we just fire a coach who was firmly in control of personnel?

Arians would take the job with minimal input? Doubtful.

 

[kerouac9]

Arians would take the job with minimal input? Doubtful.

There were so many teams banging down his door and begging him to be their head coach? Nope.

I think that Arians is firmly in a consultancy position when it comes to personnel. He can say what he looks for in a player, and Keim, Licht, and Bidwill will listen. If he really wants a guy that can be had for cheap--like Drew Stanton or Yeremiah Bell--then I'd guess that the front office will try and accommodate.

But I don't think that the new management is going to defer to the wisdom of Bruce Arians and Todd Bowles when it comes to their own evaluations the way that they seemed to under Ken "Let's Give Max Hall a Shot" Whisenhut.

At least, I hope they don't. Otherwise, it's meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

 

[Duckjake]

Arians would take the job with minimal input? Doubtful.

Hey, he was retired. His wife told him he better find something to do because he wasn't hanging around the house interfering with her. So he took the Cardinals job for something to do.

 

[Mulli]

There were so many teams banging down his door and begging him to be their head coach? Nope.

I think that Arians is firmly in a consultancy position when it comes to personnel. He can say what he looks for in a player, and Keim, Licht, and Bidwill will listen. If he really wants a guy that can be had for cheap--like Drew Stanton or Yeremiah Bell--then I'd guess that the front office will try and accommodate.

But I don't think that the new management is going to defer to the wisdom of Bruce Arians and Todd Bowles when it comes to their own evaluations the way that they seemed to under Ken "Let's Give Max Hall a Shot" Whisenhut.

At least, I hope they don't. Otherwise, it's meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Great an offseason argument over control vs input. Since neither Keim not Bidwill has Arian type of experience, I will say that Arians has control relative to how many of his decisions fail.

How would Keim/Bidwill know more than Arians about which players fit in his system? Bidwill is not football guy and Keim "got coffee" and "was a scout".

 

[Mulli]

Hey, he was retired. His wife told him he better find something to do because he wasn't hanging around the house interfering with her. So he took the Cardinals job for something to do.

Oh yeah, great.

 

[roland77]

And what has he ever done to earn that? The Greatest Head Coach in Arizona Cardinal History completely dismantled the roster and went 18-30. What make s you think a guy who has never been a HC in 19 years in the NFL can do any better?

I don't know for sure that he can do any better, but Arians has never had a chance to be a head coach in the NFL and has never worked for the Cardinals. Just because he never got a head coaching gig before doesn't mean he will fail or is a bad candidate. He's the reigning Coach of the Year; I'm just saying he deserves a chance to help build the team as he sees fit right now, not based on what happened to this franchise in the past or on Whisenhunt's failings.

 

[Duckjake]

I don't know for sure that he can do any better, but Arians has never had a chance to be a head coach in the NFL and has never worked for the Cardinals. Just because he never got a head coaching gig before doesn't mean he will fail or is a bad candidate. He's the reigning Coach of the Year; I'm just saying he deserves a chance to help build the team as he sees fit right now, not based on what happened to this franchise in the past or on Whisenhunt's failings.

Only because the HC had cancer. It was a feel good vote. One of the most successful franchises in the history of the NFL didn't want Arians anymore but he's going to be outstanding in Arizona? 18th in points scored with Andrew Luck at QB. What a genius.

 

[roland77]

Only because the HC had cancer. It was a feel good vote. One of the most successful franchises in the history of the NFL didn't want Arians anymore but he's going to be outstanding in Arizona? 18th in points scored with Andrew Luck at QB. What a genius.

It was a feel good vote to an extent, but you had a 2-14 team that easily could have collapsed when Pagano left, or just sucked anyway if Pagano didn't get sick. They were atrocious the year before, and had a lot of new players on the team for 2012. Going 9-3 with that team, Andrew Luck or not, was an accomplishment. I never said he was a genius or that he will be outstanding in Arizona.

As for his Pittsburgh years, with him as OC they made the playoffs 4 out of 5 years and 2 superbowls, if memory serves. I think he may have been the scapegoat in a situation where the Rooneys wanted Tomlin to make a move and forced his hand a little after a disappointing 2010.

 

[Duckjake]

It was a feel good vote to an extent, but you had a 2-14 team that easily could have collapsed when Pagano left, or just sucked anyway if Pagano didn't get sick. They were atrocious the year before, and had a lot of new players on the team for 2012. Going 9-3 with that team, Andrew Luck or not, was an accomplishment. I never said he was a genius or that he will be outstanding in Arizona.

As for his Pittsburgh years, with him as OC they made the playoffs 4 out of 5 years and 2 superbowls, if memory serves. I think he may have been the scapegoat in a situation where the Rooneys wanted Tomlin to make a move and forced his hand a little after a disappointing 2010.

True. But the Steelers made the playoffs several times and won the SB before Arians arrived. And our awful defense that "needed" to be dismantled just 2 years later held them to under 300 yards of offense. 58 yards rushing in the SB.

As for the Colts. That was a tank job to get Luck. They really weren't that bad.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

True. But the Steelers made the playoffs several times and won the SB before Arians arrived. And our awful defense that "needed" to be dismantled just 2 years later held them to under 300 yards of offense. 58 yards rushing in the SB.

As for the Colts. That was a tank job to get Luck. They really weren't that bad.

That SB runnerup team had a extremely good run defense, but wasn't very good against the pass. I remember the defense completely dimantling every ones run game in those playoffs. Kind of the opposite of the defense that we had last year (very good against the pass, but not very good against the run).

 

[Mulli]

Bye week bump.


Pretty good position?

 

[Duckjake]

The thread that needs to be bumped is the one(or several) about the Cards trading for Palmer. That changed everything.

 

[Chopper0080]

I never said any of these guys sucked! Even before Wiz and company got shown the door there was conjecture that Wilson was probably history. Even Wilson himself alluded to that fact.

What I don't understand is everyone was willing to give some slack to Wiz the last three years even though it was evident that he wasn't doing the team any good. Horton was also given a lot of leeway with the defense yet Arians and Bowles are already on a short leash and they haven't even had OFT camps yet.

I think there is more to the Rhodes release than we know.

I was wrong in this. There was more to Rhodes release than we knew. Others teams knew it as well as he has yet to be signed.