Why can't the Cards play defense?

[Duckjake]

The Cardinals have finished in the top half of the NFL in both points allowed or yards allowed twice in the last 25 years. 1994 and 2004.

Even with last year's defense being much better than normal fans are so upset with the defense that they are glad key defensive players from last season are gone.

What is the deal with the Franchise and defense? It's like the Texas Rangers never being able to get any pitching. All offense All the time.

Now we are heading into the 2010 season with what I feel are huge holes at CB and ILB and a defense that will be lucky to be as good as last season's.

They don't seem to have the same problems on offense. So what is it about the Bidwills and the people they hire that precludes them from having great defenses?

 

[Krangodnzr]

I think that a lack of continuity as the only constant and consistently poor drafts are the reason for this. It seems like the Cards of old were constantly looking to fill major holes every offseason with panic, need picks and as a result the defense is always terrible.

 

[Buckybird]

1) The team has never had 2 big-time edge rushers except in the mid '80's when Bubba Baker & Curtis Greer terrorized QB's

2) As you Duck brought up in an earlier thread, this franchise has never had another CB opposite the only 3 very good CB's in Aeneas, DRC & Wehrli. How many very good CB's have the Raiders or Cowpies had over their history? Oh my too many to count.

3) Some of its most talented players got away in: Rice, Aeneas, McDonald, Harvey, Pace, KVB, Lionel Washington, Dansby, Pat Fischer, Dave Butz, Jamir Miller, Norm Thompson, Leonard Smith, etc. & succeeded elswewhere

4) Maybe because the franchise has most always had a good passing game with very good WR's & suspect running games that exposed the defesive weaknesses or tired them out. EX: Look at all the HOF'ers this franchise has had only Werhli, Wilson & Night Train Lane come to mind from the defense

5) The team never has had a complete unit, we've always had a weakness in the secondary, front four or the LB core

6) Bad drafting? Anthony Bell, Johnny Rutledge, Wendall Bryant, Alan Branch Rolle, Levar Fisher, Ray Thompson, Darwin Walker, Tom Knight, etc have been high draft picks that did nothing but bust!!!

7) No quality FS except for old #8. A lack of "the last line of defense" has killed this franchise forever against better passing teams in the league.

 

[LarryStalling]

One major problem is the fact that the Cardinals have had so few really talented defensive lineman throughout the franchise history. This is born out by the fact that to the best of my recollection they don't have any Dl in the HoF. They sometimes had one really good lineman such as Swann or Greer. This puts a lot of strain on the rest of the defense to play adequate run support.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

To be fair we have never had a running game either.

 

[Duckjake]

To be fair we have never had a running game either.

Yes they did. From 1974-76 and 1979-1984. They haven't had a comparable stretch like that on defense since the 1960s.

Sadly for most of their time in Arizona you are right, the Cards haven't had much of anything. But what success they have had, like in the '70s, has come through the passing game.

 

[Duckjake]

I think that a lack of continuity as the only constant and consistently poor drafts are the reason for this. It seems like the Cards of old were constantly looking to fill major holes every offseason with panic, need picks and as a result the defense is always terrible.

But that's what puzzles me, they have been able to put together good offenses under the same conditions. It's like they just can't judge talent on the defensive side of the ball.

 

[Duckjake]

1) The team has never had 2 big-time edge rushers except in the mid '80's when Bubba Baker & Curtis Greer terrorized QB's

2) As you Duck brought up in an earlier thread, this franchise has never had another CB opposite the only 3 very good CB's in Aeneas, DRC & Wehrli. How many very good CB's have the Raiders or Cowpies had over their history? Oh my too many to count.

3) Some of its most talented players got away in: Rice, Aeneas, McDonald, Harvey, Pace, KVB, Lionel Washington, Dansby, Pat Fischer, Dave Butz, Jamir Miller, Norm Thompson, Leonard Smith, etc. & succeeded elswewhere

4) Maybe because the franchise has most always had a good passing game with very good WR's & suspect running games that exposed the defesive weaknesses or tired them out. EX: Look at all the HOF'ers this franchise has had only Werhli, Wilson & Night Train Lane come to mind from the defense

5) The team never has had a complete unit, we've always had a weakness in the secondary, front four or the LB core

6) Bad drafting? Anthony Bell, Johnny Rutledge, Wendall Bryant, Alan Branch Rolle, Levar Fisher, Ray Thompson, Darwin Walker, Tom Knight, etc have been high draft picks that did nothing but bust!!!

7) No quality FS except for old #8. A lack of "the last line of defense" has killed this franchise forever against better passing teams in the league.

Excellent point Bucky. I wonder if this ties in with the lack of continuity that Krang brought up? Do you need more experienced players to build a great defense than an offense? The best defense the Cards have had in the last 40 years, 1994, was loaded with veteran players. In addition to the older vets Ryan brought in like Joyner, Marshal, Simmons and Hoage, Swann and AWilliams were in their 4th season Lorenzo Lynch his 5th.

The 2008 defense which played so well in the post season was also a veteran group.

Both teams that have won Super Bowls primarily with defense, 2000 Ravens and 2002 Bucs, were also heavily veteran squads.

By contrast the 2003 team which finished dead last in points allowed had 6 starters with 3 seasons or less in the NFL.

Interesting.

 

[WarnerHOF]

In recent years our defense has been poor because we lacked major pieces such as a good NT, OLB and CB depth. The lack of consistency whether it be from hot/cold gameplanning or unmotivated players hasn't helped either.

I don't share your pessimism though and I am expecting atleast a top 10 defense in 2 years. All the young talent we have will pay its dividends soon enough. This will also be the first time we have a top 5 FS who can play the deep zone to perfectly compliment Adrian Wilson and let him dominate in the box and short/intermediate zones.

 

[HoodieBets]

In recent years our defense has been poor because we lacked major pieces such as a good NT, OLB and CB depth. The lack of consistency whether it be from hot/cold gameplanning or unmotivated players hasn't helped either.

I don't share your pessimism though and I am expecting atleast a top 10 defense in 2 years. All the young talent we have will pay its dividends soon enough. This will also be the first time we have a top 5 FS who can play the deep zone to perfectly compliment Adrian Wilson and let him dominate in the box and short/intermediate zones.

We have to keep them first and in the next in the next 2 years two thirds of the DL will be free agents and i dont see a starting LB that we have now that i want starting here in two years either and toler is still an unknown with no depth behind him. I dont see how we can say right now that we will have a top 10 defense in the next two years, its a lot of hoping and praying on the unknowns right now.

 

[Catfish]

In recent years our defense has been poor because we lacked major pieces such as a good NT, OLB and CB depth. The lack of consistency whether it be from hot/cold gameplanning or unmotivated players hasn't helped either.

I don't share your pessimism though and I am expecting atleast a top 10 defense in 2 years. All the young talent we have will pay its dividends soon enough. This will also be the first time we have a top 5 FS who can play the deep zone to perfectly compliment Adrian Wilson and let him dominate in the box and short/intermediate zones.

I'm with you on this Warner-----I think that Williams makes our D-line solid. I think we have the edge rushers now and have them deep. I think we have the corners, and after the next draft, should have them deep too. I am optomistic about the defense this year, especailly with the addition of Donnie Henderson at the DB coaching slot.

 

[Duckjake]

In recent years our defense has been poor because we lacked major pieces such as a good NT, OLB and CB depth. The lack of consistency whether it be from hot/cold game planning or unmotivated players hasn't helped either.

I don't share your pessimism though and I am expecting atleast a top 10 defense in 2 years. All the young talent we have will pay its dividends soon enough. This will also be the first time we have a top 5 FS who can play the deep zone to perfectly compliment Adrian Wilson and let him dominate in the box and short/intermediate zones.

That's what I'm talking about. Why has that been the case for the Cards for decades? Even Whisenhunt in his 3 years hasn't been able to put together a top defense. Why are they always lacking major pieces on D but have had several stretches of success on offense over that same time? Is it just easier to put together an NFL offense than a defense?

There is some cause for optimism though because 2009 was the first year since 2005 that the Cards finished higher in points allowed than yards. 3 of those 4 seasons they finished much farther down in points than they did in yards. A result imo of the Pendergast break but don't bend defenses.

 

[LarryStalling]

A thought comes to mind. Over the years the Cards have been a financial whipping boy in the league. First Busch Stadium and then Sun Devil Stadium, each of them posed problems as far as income for the franchise.

Offense sells tickets and this could be one reason why the Cards never had an exemplary defense. If you could score points you can sell tickets. Not many people will fill empty seats to see defense.

 

[Duckjake]

A thought comes to mind. Over the years the Cards have been a financial whipping boy in the league. First Busch Stadium and then Sun Devil Stadium, each of them posed problems as far as income for the franchise.

Offense sells tickets and this could be one reason why the Cards never had an exemplary defense. If you could score points you can sell tickets. Not many people will fill empty seats to see defense.

Good point.

 

[Catfish]

That's what I'm talking about. Why has that been the case for the Cards for decades? Even Whisenhunt in his 3 years hasn't been able to put together a top defense. Why are they always lacking major pieces on D but have had several stretches of success on offense over that same time? Is it just easier to put together an NFL offense than a defense?

There is some cause for optimism though because 2009 was the first year since 2005 that the Cards finished higher in points allowed than yards. 3 of those 4 seasons they finished much farther down in points than they did in yards. A result imo of the Pendergast break but don't bend defenses.

Jake----clearly, Whizenhunt was using every dollar available to get Warner the very best targets he could find for him, while hoping that we could outscore anyone else. It almost worked. Now, he is going to have to try to win with balance in the offense and the defense.

 

[splitsecond]

A thought comes to mind. Over the years the Cards have been a financial whipping boy in the league. First Busch Stadium and then Sun Devil Stadium, each of them posed problems as far as income for the franchise.

Offense sells tickets and this could be one reason why the Cards never had an exemplary defense. If you could score points you can sell tickets. Not many people will fill empty seats to see defense.

I had forgotten how truly awful SDS was until I went to the ASU/Cal game this past year. It was the end of October and it was miserable. I think your point is very good on this.

 

[Buckybird]

Now, he is going to have to try to win with balance in the offense and the defense.

In my opinion that doesn't lead to a Lombardi in this day of the NFL Fish. You must be dominant on one side of the ball & most likely the offensive side (preferably the passing game) because the rules dictate that.

 

[lauraw]

In Whizz I trust!!

 

[kerouac9]

In a word: Continuity. A defense has to rely on all the other 10 players around them to be in their gaps or in their zones or covering their man for the scheme to work. If you don't trust the guy playing on either side of you to do his job, then you feel like you're going to have to do your job and his.

A good D can integrate 3 new players (rookies or FA) per season and still be solid, but there has to be a core of players who can lead and still be legitimate as good players.

It helps if you have a mastermind pulling the stings from the booth, as well.

Philly in the early decade: Jeremiah Trotter, Brian Dawkins, Sheppard and Brown at the corners, Darwin Walker on the line. Jim Johnson running the show.

Late 90s Ravens with Peter Boulware, Rod Woodson, Duane Starks, and Marv Lewis holding the reins.

The late 90s Bucs teams with Sapp, Brooks, Lynch, Nickerson & Quarles, along with Barber. Monte Kiffin holding the clipboard.

This team hasn't made the right investments at DC and haven't been able to find the 3 stars and 4 more solid vets to build a consistent defensive unit. I think they thought they were close with Clancy, B. Berry, C. Okeafor, D. Dockett, A.Wilson, Hayes, and Dansby, but injuries and below-average play from the2 and 3 corners unravelled that plan.

 

[anks106]

That's what I'm talking about. Why has that been the case for the Cards for decades? Even Whisenhunt in his 3 years hasn't been able to put together a top defense. Why are they always lacking major pieces on D but have had several stretches of success on offense over that same time? Is it just easier to put together an NFL offense than a defense?

There is some cause for optimism though because 2009 was the first year since 2005 that the Cards finished higher in points allowed than yards. 3 of those 4 seasons they finished much farther down in points than they did in yards. A result imo of the Pendergast break but don't bend defenses.

It has been an amazing 3 years, but lets also note coach Whiz has only been here 3 years. He also inherited a 5-11 team, so he had a hill to climb. The team he came into had 2 all pro WRs, a young and at that time highly regarded QB, and possibly servicable running back. We were closer on offense than on defense where we had some parts, but certainly not many. Add in to the picture that Whiz is an offensive coach, and that our first draft of his wasn't so hot on the defensive side (it took Branch until last year to become useful at something, and buster didn't even make it out of the preseason) and we were already in a hole.

We have been getting better, but it isn't like we have made too many luxury picks (Roberts may be a luxury pick, but they may not be happy with the development of Doucet.. who knows). Most of the guys we have targeted have been guys we needed, we just needed both offense and defense and were closer on O, plus we got lucky to revive a HOF QB.

As we continue moving forward, I think we can hope to see some change in our not so recent defensive futility.

And an aside, for those who have been talking about losing Dockett to FA eventually, the F-tag number for a DT right now is 6 million.. he will be 32 I believe when his contract expires, and barring a massive overhaul in the salary structures of DTs or a precedent of a 3-4 DE being Franchise Tagged at the DE position (who decides what position a player can be tagged at btw?). He will be affordable until he is 34 years old. He may not like playing under the franchise tag (who does?), but inevitably they all play under it, and I don't know the numbers as to whether players perform worse or better when they are tagged vs the year prior and after; but I'd guess being that a franchise tag year is basically a contract year.. they probably aren't too bad (outside of truly terrible locker rooms/situations that never should have occured in the 1st place).

 

[anks106]

Also, there are various "systems" that go around w/ defense (3-4, 4-3, 4-3 running a tampa 2.. etc.) that not every player fits. For the most part, offenses tend to be universal (you can toss Fitz or Beanie into any team in the league and they'll fit in great) and they seem to be modified around personnel, not the other way around. Switching defensive philosophies every so often will set you back (as K9 has pointed out) and each time we switched we ended up having to get rid of some players who don't fit the new system and took a few steps back. Continuity is key, and we haven't had it.

Even with the most recent switch from the 4-3 to the 4-3 under with the predator/sam roles and eventually to the 3-4 we lost some players who didn't fit, and had some setbacks as well (Branch not developing into who we thought he would of course, but lets not forget the setback that Gabe Watson was. He played extremely well during Whiz's first year here, look back at posts u'll see many praising him and looking forward to his long career as our starting NT. When Dockett made the pro bowl that year, he credited big Gabe for that honor. That knee injury really has wreaked havoc on him it seems.)

A team that has continuity can build up depth and eventually just start swapping in and out parts (see the Steelers LBers, the Patriots secondary, The colts CBs etc.)

We are working towards that goal, but it takes some time. When you have truly become established you can function with a goal of swap out, swap in. For all too long, on both O and D, we have had to try to swap in more than we swap out; and had players who wanted to get out more than they wanted to come in. It's a bit of a vicious cycle, but we are getting close and it also helps that Whiz came to us directly from Pitt. He had pre-existing relationships with players that were not punctuated by time out of the league. That helped us bring in a number of role players that helped us have that more in than out ratio we needed. Denny came to us from an ESPN booth, and coach Mac was promoted from within. They didn't have those benefits (I'm a youngin, don't go further back than those years, so I'll let others who truly understand what was going on at the time and not just what history has remembered speak for the time before Macginnis).

All this doesn't even mention that from a free agents perspective, you want money yes, you want a winning team yes; but you also are going to be drawn to an opportunity to play for a successful unit, or at least one that you can see becoming successful soon. We had Sanders and Moore.. then Boston and Sanders.. then Boldin and Johnson (before he busted).. then Boldin and Fitz. We have had pieces in place that an offensive player might say, I wanna be a part of that.

When Edge signed he said "“It is a nice situation. I feel like all they (Cardinals) were missing was a back. They have a MVP quarterback and two Pro Bowl receivers and all they were needed was a back."

A solid but unspectacular defensive player isn't gonna look at the 08 Cardinals D and say .. well they have Adrian Wilson and he's really good, and Dansby has potential.. yeah lets do it! He is gonna look elsewhere.

Success breeds Success.
Continuity breeds Continuity.
Success breeds Continuity.
Continuity breeds Success.

 

[Longcolts]

Rome wasn't built in a day, and obviously a football team isn't either. In three short years Whiz has built a winner and I for one don't believe it's going to go back the other way. At least not in the long term. He built a potent offense and I believe finally has an offensive line that will do what is needed to win and that includes creating continuity on it while plugging in good players in needed areas. I think tbh that he is just now able to start really working on the defensive side of the ball. It may not be perfect and exactly what we want for this year but when all is said and done I think this team will be built to win for the long run.

 

[JeffGollin]

Beware Overreliance on Stats

Even the points-allowed stat.

I believe the Cards have tended to give up a much higher-than-average points off turnovers than other NFL teams and that, at the very least, turnovers last year led to our defense having to do yeoman-like work defending our territory inside the 50 and keeping the opposition out of our end zone.

The problem with other stats (i.e. sacks, completion percentages etc.) is that Billy Davis (and Pendergast before him) have been masters at adjusting his coverages/schemes to cover up weaknesses.

Which means - If we can't get the job done rushing our front 3 (plus a LB), we have to rush more people thereby leaving our DB's exposed.

Or conversely, if our corners can't handle coverage on an island all alone, we might have to leave both safeties back to help out instead of moving one of them into the box to help stop the run or rush the passer.

Run defense stats are even more complicated because - if our front 3 does a good job of keeping blockers away from our LB's but the LB's fail to execute, the blame invariably falls on our D-line. Conversely, if our D-line isn't doing its job, it can make our LB's look really really bad.

That said - My own assessment is that (a) the front 3 of Dockett, Watson/Robinson and Campbell is one of the best in the NFL, (b) there was a lack of quality overall LB depth, no truly super-human athletes (especially outside) plus - Dansby (despite his occasional heroics) wasn't heroic in every game he played; and (c) we lacked a decent #2 cover corner and our FS who, though athletic, hadn't really mastered the mental/strategic part of the game.

Actually, few if any NFL defenses are 100% strong across the board - each have their position-weaknesses to varying degrees. But the more roster-holes you have, the more "unlucky" you're likely to be in some key games. I believe this is what happened to the Cardinals last season (& to a certain extent the season before).

Hopefully some of the roster-changes we made during the offseason will fill in some of the missing gaps, but we won't know that until "live" bullets start flying.

 

[Duckjake]

For the most part, offenses tend to be universal (you can toss Fitz or Beanie into any team in the league and they'll fit in great) and they seem to be modified around personnel, not the other way around. Switching defensive philosophies every so often will set you back (as K9 has pointed out) and each time we switched we ended up having to get rid of some players who don't fit the new system and took a few steps back. Continuity is key, and we haven't had it.

Good point.

One thing I have noticed is that over the years the Cardinals drafts of defensive players in the later rounds have not been good.

Higher round players for one reason or another didn't stay long. I think someone pointed out that only Fitz and Leonard Davis, of the last 14 or so first round selections, made it past their initial contract.

Jamir Miller, Simeon Rice, Corey Chavous, Calvin Pace and Antrell Rolle left as free agents, Levar Fisher, KVB and Andre Wadsworth had injury issues, Tom Knight and Ray Thompson had talent problems. Wendall Bryant was the defensive equivalent of Ryan Leaf. Dansby only stayed under the franchise tag and left as soon as it was lifted.

 

[Duckjake]

Rome wasn't built in a day, and obviously a football team isn't either. In three short years Whiz has built a winner and I for one don't believe it's going to go back the other way. At least not in the long term. He built a potent offense and I believe finally has an offensive line that will do what is needed to win and that includes creating continuity on it while plugging in good players in needed areas. I think tbh that he is just now able to start really working on the defensive side of the ball. It may not be perfect and exactly what we want for this year but when all is said and done I think this team will be built to win for the long run.

That's understandable, but the Cardinals failures on the defensive side of the ball and success on the offensive side go back all the way to the 1970's and the Coryell years.

Whisenhunt may yet build a decent defense but that doesn't answer the question as to why the Cards have had so much more success on offense than defense for the last 40 years.