Suns @ Bucks Sunday game thread 3-6-2022

Chaplin

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The entire team didn't do squat on the boards. Saying this was on Ayton is stoooooopid.
You have completely missed the point, but that's ok. I myself never said it's "on" Ayton. It contributed certainly. His lackadasical play was throughout each of these past few games. How is that not a concern? And it's not about "specifically" 12 or 16 or 20 rebounds. It's about the effort to get rebounds. He should have had more effort last night, no question. And that would have increased his rebounding total. It just would have.
 

Chaplin

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We can argue about Ayton rebounding better but where was everybody else?

Crowder had 5 which is about his average. The same with Craig with 4.

However, Bridges had 0 in extended minutes. This hurt the most.

Also McGee had 1 and Biyombo 3 in limited minutes, lower than what they should produce.

When Cam Johnson plays, he averages about 4.
Tell me, who hasn't brought up everyone else needing to be better at rebounding? It certainly wasn't me. Ayton is supposed to be an elite rebounder -- Torrey Craig isn't. Jae Crowder isn't. Mikal Bridges isn't. The problem isn't that Ayton specifically didn't get 12 rebounds, the problem is that frequently he didn't even seem to try to get them. THAT'S the problem.

If Ayton showed the effort but only got 8 rebounds this wouldn't even be a discussion, but the effort wasn't there for much of this game. Ayton himself acknowledged that!
 

Chris_Sanders

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I think it is very fair to look at the rebounding last game as a team failure. Bridges getting zero really odd. Payne and Shamet being under their seasonal averages despite playing huge minutes. In fact, the only player in the game to make their season average in rebounds was Craig.

My other big take away that if Shamet can take this time to find his confidence this team isn't going to be beat when healthy.
 

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I think it is very fair to look at the rebounding last game as a team failure. Bridges getting zero really odd. Payne and Shamet being under their seasonal averages despite playing huge minutes. In fact, the only player in the game to make their season average in rebounds was Craig.

My other big take away that if Shamet can take this time to find his confidence this team isn't going to be beat when healthy.
The issue is this game didn’t happen in a vacuum. Ayton’s rebounding has been an issue now for the better part of two months. To the point that you have been betting against him covering the over under of 10... and then getting attacked for doing so by the usual suspects.

Also the end of that game, plus the end of the Knicks game saw Ayton give up huge offensive rebounds repeatedly in crunch time, which certainly magnified the existing issue for posters yesterday.
 

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Monty needs to start using his damn challenges! It’s ridiculous he n we vet challenges anything it feels like, what’s the point in saving them Monty? The clear offensive foul on Middleton was a huge swing in a close game worth the challenge
 

Covert Rain

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You have completely missed the point, but that's ok. I myself never said it's "on" Ayton. It contributed certainly. His lackadasical play was throughout each of these past few games. How is that not a concern? And it's not about "specifically" 12 or 16 or 20 rebounds. It's about the effort to get rebounds. He should have had more effort last night, no question. And that would have increased his rebounding total. It just would have.
I never said he didn't contribute to the loss. However, the difference in that game wasn't 4 rebounds by him. It was a team effort on the boards that led to that loss and yet many on this board were focusing on Ayton. He could have had 12 rebounds and they are still losing that game.

Tell me, who hasn't brought up everyone else needing to be better at rebounding? It certainly wasn't me. Ayton is supposed to be an elite rebounder -- Torrey Craig isn't. Jae Crowder isn't. Mikal Bridges isn't. The problem isn't that Ayton specifically didn't get 12 rebounds, the problem is that frequently he didn't even seem to try to get them. THAT'S the problem.

If Ayton showed the effort but only got 8 rebounds this wouldn't even be a discussion, but the effort wasn't there for much of this game. Ayton himself acknowledged that!
What is your definition of elite? Because being high ten (his career average) makes him elite. 12 would make him all time. However, you and I seem to be saying the same thing. It's not the number necessarily but the timing and consistently of grabbing those boards. If so, that is fair. That goes for every effort. If someone scores 20 in the first and does nothing for the rest of the game that's an issue. If Ayton grabs 8 in the first half and zero for the second that's an issue. Ayton wouldn't have said squat if he hit his average that game. That's pretty normal. You wouldn't want a player to say anything else. Also, I don't equate lack of consistency always with effort but that can be a reason.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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Lol. I really think you don’t watch the games. The number is just part of the problem. Or maybe you didn’t see all the no-effort offensive rebounds he gave up. In the fourth quarter alone there were two key offensive rebounds that he gave up to Giannis where Ayton didn’t even jump.

As mentioned earlier, he kept us in the game but he didn’t finish.

And whine all you want about others not rebounding - you’re not wrong, it’s an issue - but the beast rebounder you used to crow about is now averaging 9.8 for the season and is on a 15-16 game “tear” where he’s averaging 8 per game. For a team that plays smaller purposefully that’s a huge problem. And even Ayton just admitted it. But for some reason you can’t see it.
His rebounding is two fold too. When he is putting in effort on the boards he gets more rebounds and makes it easier for other guys to rebound because they aren’t contending with the other team’s big men.
 

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Gonna unapologetically unload for a second because this has gone off the rails.

There’s a reason I rarely broach the Ayton subject on here anymore and it’s based on the responses I got from a lukewarm comment about Ayton and criticism of Mikal. Oftentimes, I’ll regrettably take a jab here and there when the comments become utterly absurd, but it’s simply not worth it anymore. I made a comment about Mikal (who’s the true untouchable on here) not playing well and immediately, someone pivoted to Ayton. That’s stupid and inarguably even more biased than supporting Ayton. Not sugar coating it.

Frankly, it’s devolved into MJ v. LeBron territory where 90% of the discussion is incomprehensible. I haven’t commented on that in years for the same reasons.

I’m uninterested in debating a topic with a group of people whose responses are,“you’re biased” or, “you’re a homer,” or, “stop attacking me.” If you want to have a conversation of substance about DA, PM me. Not doing it in this public forum anymore unless asked. This is not me being “pissy,” this is me setting a boundary for the level of discourse on this board, even beyond Ayton. Maybe my standards for a discussion are too high, but I at least expect it to be better than the crap on Twitter and Facebook, and that’s not an unfair request.

Rant over.
 

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NBA released it's Last 2 minute report for the Bucks game: https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport.html?gameId=0022100961

The Crowder/Middleton call which I also agree should have been challenged was ruled the correct call.

Comment:Crowder (PHX) turns into Middleton's (MIL) path and initiates body contact during the drive. The contact occurs prior to Middleton's off-arm moving toward Crowder thereafter.
 

Chris_Sanders

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The issue is this game didn’t happen in a vacuum. Ayton’s rebounding has been an issue now for the better part of two months. To the point that you have been betting against him covering the over under of 10... and then getting attacked for doing so by the usual suspects.

Also the end of that game, plus the end of the Knicks game saw Ayton give up huge offensive rebounds repeatedly in crunch time, which certainly magnified the existing issue for posters yesterday.

Oh yeah I bet against his rebounding number every game. That's a fact.
 

Chaplin

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Gonna unapologetically unload for a second because this has gone off the rails.

There’s a reason I rarely broach the Ayton subject on here anymore and it’s based on the responses I got from a lukewarm comment about Ayton and criticism of Mikal. Oftentimes, I’ll regrettably take a jab here and there when the comments become utterly absurd, but it’s simply not worth it anymore. I made a comment about Mikal (who’s the true untouchable on here) not playing well and immediately, someone pivoted to Ayton. That’s stupid and inarguably even more biased than supporting Ayton. Not sugar coating it.

Frankly, it’s devolved into MJ v. LeBron territory where 90% of the discussion is incomprehensible. I haven’t commented on that in years for the same reasons.

I’m uninterested in debating a topic with a group of people whose responses are,“you’re biased” or, “you’re a homer,” or, “stop attacking me.” If you want to have a conversation of substance about DA, PM me. Not doing it in this public forum anymore unless asked. This is not me being “pissy,” this is me setting a boundary for the level of discourse on this board, even beyond Ayton. Maybe my standards for a discussion are too high, but I at least expect it to be better than the crap on Twitter and Facebook, and that’s not an unfair request.

Rant over.

This is all well and good, but you are disingenuous if you don’t accept his inconsistencies and issues. You and Finito are the biggest Ayton apologists on this board, and attacking us for not being apologists just reeks of wanting to take your ball and go home. It’s not personal until you make it so.

We are frustrated and upset with Ayton because we KNOW he can be better. In fact we believe he can be A LOT better. Even in this current iteration of the team where you get a lot of support on this board when you say Ayton is sacrificing for the team. So instead of having a discussion, you aren’t even willing to post on a message board? Ayton can do no wrong in most of your posts, and yet here you are, accusing us for doing the same with Mikal.

You must not have been around the board much before February because several on this board have criticized Mikal for having no offensive game. Hell, in THIS thread there’s criticism of him.

Ayton could have gotten more rebounds and he could have helped others get more rebounds, especially Mikal. His contribution to rebounding isn’t just the rebounds he himself gets. The effort just wasn’t there last night and especially in the game against the Knicks.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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What is really scary? It fell that far off with a 36 year old Chris Paul. He was averaging the most steals since 2018. I think it's just his intensity. I don't think the team has anybody else to get in their face unless Paul is out there. The very definition of leadership.
Agreed. At least, no one else with the necessary gravitas to grab everyone’s attention the way he can, and does.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Monty needs to start using his damn challenges! It’s ridiculous he n we vet challenges anything it feels like, what’s the point in saving them Monty? The clear offensive foul on Middleton was a huge swing in a close game worth the challenge
Agreed. I didn’t get sitting on that one.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I never said he didn't contribute to the loss. However, the difference in that game wasn't 4 rebounds by him. It was a team effort on the boards that led to that loss and yet many on this board were focusing on Ayton. He could have had 12 rebounds and they are still losing that game.


What is your definition of elite? Because being high ten (his career average) makes him elite. 12 would make him all time. However, you and I seem to be saying the same thing. It's not the number necessarily but the timing and consistently of grabbing those boards. If so, that is fair. That goes for every effort. If someone scores 20 in the first and does nothing for the rest of the game that's an issue. If Ayton grabs 8 in the first half and zero for the second that's an issue. Ayton wouldn't have said squat if he hit his average that game. That's pretty normal. You wouldn't want a player to say anything else. Also, I don't equate lack of consistency always with effort but that can be a reason.
First, your arguments about career averages are poor. You want to compare those all time greats look at their rebounding averages during the first years that they averaged 30+ minutes. That’s apples to apples. Factoring in end-of-career seasons or rookie season in which they received limited minutes is disingenuous.

Second, he’s averaging 8 rebounds per game over the 16 games. We are talking about now. How does that number make you feel?

Finally, most of this discussion has been about Ayton’s rebounding failure at the game’s end. Know how many he had in the fourth quarter? 1.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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AzStevenCal

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Gonna unapologetically unload for a second because this has gone off the rails.

There’s a reason I rarely broach the Ayton subject on here anymore and it’s based on the responses I got from a lukewarm comment about Ayton and criticism of Mikal. Oftentimes, I’ll regrettably take a jab here and there when the comments become utterly absurd, but it’s simply not worth it anymore. I made a comment about Mikal (who’s the true untouchable on here) not playing well and immediately, someone pivoted to Ayton. That’s stupid and inarguably even more biased than supporting Ayton. Not sugar coating it.

Frankly, it’s devolved into MJ v. LeBron territory where 90% of the discussion is incomprehensible. I haven’t commented on that in years for the same reasons.

I’m uninterested in debating a topic with a group of people whose responses are,“you’re biased” or, “you’re a homer,” or, “stop attacking me.” If you want to have a conversation of substance about DA, PM me. Not doing it in this public forum anymore unless asked. This is not me being “pissy,” this is me setting a boundary for the level of discourse on this board, even beyond Ayton. Maybe my standards for a discussion are too high, but I at least expect it to be better than the crap on Twitter and Facebook, and that’s not an unfair request.

Rant over.
Without passing judgement on the legitimacy of these anti-player comments I would say that Ayton takes the most abuse here but he's very closely followed by Shamet, Bridges and then Booker. The idea you think Mikal is off limits for criticism really suggests you have eyes only for Ayton (or for comments about Ayton). Bridges has been ripped considerably this season.
 

Cheesebeef

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Without passing judgement on the legitimacy of these anti-player comments I would say that Ayton takes the most abuse here but he's very closely followed by Shamet, Bridges and then Booker. The idea you think Mikal is off limits for criticism really suggests you have eyes only for Ayton (or for comments about Ayton). Bridges has been ripped considerably this season.
Bridges was definitely getting criticism the first half of the season for only playing on one side of the court before the light went on for him during that 15 game stretch. He’s been a little hit or miss on O since CP3 has been out, but the entire team is adjusting to multiple things, especially with Book out too.

That said, I’m not going to rip him for his D on Middleton. I think that’s just a really bad matchup for him that he can’t really win.
 

Covert Rain

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First, your arguments about career averages are poor. You want to compare those all time greats look at their rebounding averages during the first years that they averaged 30+ minutes. That’s apples to apples. Factoring in end-of-career seasons or rookie season in which they received limited minutes is disingenuous.

Second, he’s averaging 8 rebounds per game over the 16 games. We are talking about now. How does that number make you feel?

Finally, most of this discussion has been about Ayton’s rebounding failure at the game’s end. Know how many he had in the fourth quarter? 1.
David only averaged 12 or more 4 times. After that right around Ayton's numbers. Shaq 5 times, Tim 5 times. As I stated Ayton isn't as good or stronger than any of those players. So why would I expect him to do better or even the same? All of these players averages are impacted by early and late stages of their careers. As I already stated and will state again I am not saying he is as good as any of those players. in other words, I am not directly trying to compare them to Ayton because I don't think Ayton is on the same level. So to have those expectations to put up similar numbers is dumb. Ayton is obviously has a long way to go. I brought those others players up as a baseline for players at the next level. Players he isn't as good as right now. Also, if you don't think any of those players had bad stretches in their careers you are kidding yourself.

Also, during last season I kept posting how his numbers stacked up against his peers and where he ranked while people were getting hysterical at times bashing him. So, even though I had no idea he would step up that big I wasn't as shocked as everyone else was. So I feel just fine. I will do what I did last year. I will judge him at the end of the season because it's along grind there are ups and downs. We have seen it his entire career so far which is what I have been critical about from day one...consistency. So this 8 game stretch? Meh...we have seen it before. I won't get bash happy about something we have seen already.
 
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Cheesebeef

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David only averaged 12 or more 4 times. After that right around Ayton's numbers. Shaq 5 times, Tim 5 times. As I stated Ayton isn't as good or stronger than any of those players. So why would I expect him to do better or even the same? All of these players averages are impacted by early and late stages of their careers. As I already stated and will state again I am not saying he is as good as any of those players. in other words, I am not directly trying to compare them to Ayton because I don't think Ayton is on the same level. So to have those expectations to put up similar numbers is dumb. Ayton is obviously has a long way to go. I brought those others players up as a baseline for players at the next level. Players he isn't as good as right now. Also, if you don't think any of those players had bad stretches in their careers you are kidding yourself.

Also, during last season I kept posting how his numbers stacked up against his peers and where he ranked while people were getting hysterical at times bashing him. So, even though I had no idea he would step up that big I wasn't as shocked as everyone else was. So I feel just fine. I will do what I did last year. I will judge him at the end of the season because it's along grind there are ups and downs. We have seen it his entire career so far which is what I have been critical about from day one...consistency. So this 8 game stretch? Meh...we have seen it before. I won't get bash happy about something we have seen already.
ALL of those guys were dominant defensive players. Ayton ain’t close to Duncan, Robinson or prime Shaq as a total monster on D.

And this isn’t an 8 game stretch, it’s a 19 game stretch where he’s only gotten double digit rebounds 4 times. That’s bad. Period.

And this is his first season where he’s ever been below double digits rebounds averaged so this is new. And he should be ascending in his fourth season. Not going backwards... in any area of his game.
 

Covert Rain

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ALL of those guys were dominant defensive players. Ayton ain’t close to Duncan, Robinson or prime Shaq as a total monster on D.

And this isn’t an 8 game stretch, it’s a 19 game stretch where he’s only gotten double digit rebounds 4 times. That’s bad. Period.

And this is his first season where he’s ever been below double digits rebounds averaged so this is new. And he should be ascending in his fourth season. Not going backwards... in any area of his game.
That first part is exactly what I am saying. He isn't close to those players so people shouldn't have that level of expectation out of him. He is likely going to be a 16-18/10-10.5 guy his entire career unless he becomes more of a primary option offensively. He could get to 20 PPG. He .8 below his career reb average which I said as well. I think that is partly because when he isn't being consistent, they are yanking him for McGee and sometimes Biyombo who are grabbing boards that Ayton previously would have had a chance to be in there to do. Monty has a shorter hook knowing those guys are behind Ayton. I had hoped when we drafted him he could become a 25/12 type player but 4 years later I don't see that happening. I am not sure he will ever be consistent enough to get there. He might just be one of those guys that can't turn it on at another level until the playoffs.
 
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ALL of those guys were dominant defensive players. Ayton ain’t close to Duncan, Robinson or prime Shaq as a total monster on D.

And this isn’t an 8 game stretch, it’s a 19 game stretch where he’s only gotten double digit rebounds 4 times. That’s bad. Period.

And this is his first season where he’s ever been below double digits rebounds averaged so this is new. And he should be ascending in his fourth season. Not going backwards... in any area of his game.

Offensively I think Ayton is improving. This season he is starting to take more mid-range shots and the occasional 3-pointer so I see growth there.

However, like you, I don't see the growth on defense and rebounding. I try to remind myself he is only 23 and perhaps he is a late bloomer. If not, he can still become a much better offensive player.
 

Covert Rain

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Offensively I think Ayton is improving. This season he is starting to take more mid-range shots and the occasional 3-pointer so I see growth there.

However, like you, I don't see the growth on defense and rebounding. I try to remind myself he is only 23 and perhaps he is a late bloomer. If not, he can still become a much better offensive player.
That is still a possibility but I am going to hold to my original thought on that. I said by end of this year we will know what we have in Ayton. Not to say he can't slightly improve here or there but I didn't see after year 4 him getting significantly better in any one area.
 
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That is still a possibility but I am going to hold to my original thought on that. I said by end of this year we will know what we have in Ayton. Not to say he can't slightly improve here or there but I didn't see after year 4 him getting significantly better in any one area.

Yeah, I mostly see the light coming on for Ayton offensively. I'd rather see it on the defensive end and rebounding.

In many ways I see Ayton as somewhat immature like when he showed off all his toys in that one video.

I do think there is a chance for things to click for him in a year or two if he suddenly realizes what it takes to be great. Right now that is more of a hope than anything else. He did start basketball late so there is that. I want to see him show more hunger for the game.
 

95pro

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David only averaged 12 or more 4 times. After that right around Ayton's numbers. Shaq 5 times, Tim 5 times. As I stated Ayton isn't as good or stronger than any of those players. So why would I expect him to do better or even the same? All of these players averages are impacted by early and late stages of their careers. As I already stated and will state again I am not saying he is as good as any of those players. in other words, I am not directly trying to compare them to Ayton because I don't think Ayton is on the same level. So to have those expectations to put up similar numbers is dumb. Ayton is obviously has a long way to go. I brought those others players up as a baseline for players at the next level. Players he isn't as good as right now. Also, if you don't think any of those players had bad stretches in their careers you are kidding yourself.

Also, during last season I kept posting how his numbers stacked up against his peers and where he ranked while people were getting hysterical at times bashing him. So, even though I had no idea he would step up that big I wasn't as shocked as everyone else was. So I feel just fine. I will do what I did last year. I will judge him at the end of the season because it's along grind there are ups and downs. We have seen it his entire career so far which is what I have been critical about from day one...consistency. So this 8 game stretch? Meh...we have seen it before. I won't get bash happy about something we have seen already.

Averages???

This is game where he's the biggest sun in the starting lineup and well for most of the team. CP3 and Booker get their fair of rebounds so they can run the break. They didn't play.

This one game with our #1 and #2 players out, Ayton has to step up and grab them, a game where he has to get more than his average.

Dont bring up HOF player's averages to support your narrative. Its really simple for this big re-match with you key teammates out, show up and prove that you want revenge from the finals and that you're ready to earn your supermax when crunchtime comes.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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David only averaged 12 or more 4 times. After that right around Ayton's numbers. Shaq 5 times, Tim 5 times. As I stated Ayton isn't as good or stronger than any of those players. So why would I expect him to do better or even the same? All of these players averages are impacted by early and late stages of their careers. As I already stated and will state again I am not saying he is as good as any of those players. in other words, I am not directly trying to compare them to Ayton because I don't think Ayton is on the same level. So to have those expectations to put up similar numbers is dumb. Ayton is obviously has a long way to go. I brought those others players up as a baseline for players at the next level. Players he isn't as good as right now. Also, if you don't think any of those players had bad stretches in their careers you are kidding yourself.

Also, during last season I kept posting how his numbers stacked up against his peers and where he ranked while people were getting hysterical at times bashing him. So, even though I had no idea he would step up that big I wasn't as shocked as everyone else was. So I feel just fine. I will do what I did last year. I will judge him at the end of the season because it's along grind there are ups and downs. We have seen it his entire career so far which is what I have been critical about from day one...consistency. So this 8 game stretch? Meh...we have seen it before. I won't get bash happy about something we have seen already.
The fact that your posting and arguing about this is actually proof that you’re not waiting until the end of the season.

And we are talking about right now. The 16 game stretch during which he’s averaging 8 rebounds per game. If you don’t want to address that, don’t.
 
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