Suns @ Bucks Sunday game thread 3-6-2022

TJ

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Guess Ayton is guilty of “hawt takes” too, huh?

Seriously... we ALL here criticize every player on the Suns for this and that, but Ayton is the only player here seemingly above criticism from two posters.

It’s freaking weird.
It’s one thing to criticize, but hating Ayton has become an obsession on this board beyond simple criticism. Much of it is merited, but there are posters who go way out of their way to take a jab. Case in point: Someone interjects with an opinion in support of Ayton and he’s “above criticism from two posters.”

It’s no longer discourse, it’s garbage.
 

Cheesebeef

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It’s one thing to criticize, but hating Ayton has become an obsession on this board beyond simple criticism. Much of it is merited, but there are posters who go way out of their way to take a jab. Case in point: Someone interjects with an opinion in support of Ayton and he’s “above criticism from two posters.”

It’s no longer discourse, it’s garbage.
Lol. Okay. I’ll just say this... don’t dish it out, if you can’t take it. And you’ve dished out plenty to other posters about Ayton for years. Hell, you just did it here with your “hawt take” mocking.. and then get pissy when someone comes back at you?
 
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zett

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What good is that timeout if the game is getting away from you? I’d much rather be down 2 with 1:30 left with the ball and a chance to tie/take the lead versus being down 4 with 1:30 left but still having an extra timeout. That have the Bucks team a little breathing space... and turned up the pressure where we had to play perfect. A tall order for a squad down three great players.
he took the timeout after the free throws anyway, it was a no brainer to challenge that play
 

TJ

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Lol. Okay. I’ll just say this... don’t dish it out, if you can’t take it. And you’ve dished out plenty to other posters about Ayton for years. Hell, you just did it here with your “hawt take” mocking.. and then get pissy when someone comes back at you?

Dont confuse me challenging the poorly-constructed DA narratives as being “pissy.” That reinforces the belief that it’s just one giant group think with no original opinions. Sorry, Cheese, not buying your BS. You know I’m right.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Again I’m not apologizing for him.

Ayton had 8 rebounds

The other four starters combined for 8 rebounds.

See what’s going on here? The entire team is not rebounding, but Ayton is the only one called out here. It’s a lazy low hanging fruit sports take at this point.

So answer me how many rebounds should Ayton get to compensate for the alarming lack of rebounding by the entire team.
Lol. I really think you don’t watch the games. The number is just part of the problem. Or maybe you didn’t see all the no-effort offensive rebounds he gave up. In the fourth quarter alone there were two key offensive rebounds that he gave up to Giannis where Ayton didn’t even jump.

As mentioned earlier, he kept us in the game but he didn’t finish.

And whine all you want about others not rebounding - you’re not wrong, it’s an issue - but the beast rebounder you used to crow about is now averaging 9.8 for the season and is on a 15-16 game “tear” where he’s averaging 8 per game. For a team that plays smaller purposefully that’s a huge problem. And even Ayton just admitted it. But for some reason you can’t see it.
 

Chaplin

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Dont confuse me challenging the poorly-constructed DA narratives as being “pissy.” That reinforces the belief that it’s just one giant group think with no original opinions. Sorry, Cheese, not buying your BS. You know I’m right.
No you are wrong. DA is our best player given that our other guys are out. The scoring was great and was absolutely critical in us staying in it. But his rebounding is disastrous and was a contributor to the loss.

Yes, other guys should have rebounded also, but DA’s STRENGTH is rebounding and he’s been pathetic at it for some time now. He is getting outplayed by every opponent. How is that not concerning? If you think he’s this amazing and great superstar who is sacrificing his game for the betterment of the team, why hasn’t he shown that he’s up to the task? He’s not Devin Booker. 30 points for DA is fantastic but not normal. Getting 12 rebounds SHOULD be the normal for him and he isn’t doing it. The points are gravy and unexpected. The rebounds are expected.

30 points and 8 rebounds isn’t bad, what is bad is that he can do more and the eye test shows that he either can’t or doesn’t want to. Watch the games for chrissake! When he gets 30 points and only 8 rebounds and we LOSE, he’s in danger of producing empty stats.

Get just one or two offensive rebounds and we win this game. But he didn’t have the desire to do so.
 

Covert Rain

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DA has 8 rebounds in the game. Some of you are ridiculously critical of DA. Oh...and you can't write me off at being overly protective or sensitive of DA because I have done a ton of calling him out since he was drafted by this team. Some of you are quick to take shots at the guy. He had 8 rebounds. That wasn't pathetic. He was 1.7 rebounds off his season average. One bounce here or there and he was right on his average. His season average puts him just outside the top 15 in the entire NBA. Not pathetic. For the season he is about .8 of a rebound off his career average which yes would just allow him to crack the top 10.

Some of you are acting like he has fallen off the cliff. Jeebus. A couple things. We DIDN'T have McGee, Biyombo and now Craig before which means some of those guys are grabbing those boards now.

Also, I am more concerned about the lack of contribution on the boards from others in the games we have lost. Last night?

McGee 6.7 Avg = 1
Biyombo 5.8 AVG = 1
Craig avg 4.7 = 4 but was off .7 similar to amount DA was off (looks like a shell of himself so far this year).......silence.
Bridges Avg 4.3 = 0
Cam J Avg 4.1 removed from the lineup being out
Booker being out removes 5.2 per game
Paul being out removes 4.5 per game

Just in injuries that is a major disadvantage. Our other two bigs that have been critical at times this season couldn't stay on the floor getting only 13 and 9 minutes respectively in a game we were getting worked on the boards.

Some of you are freaking ridiculous when it comes to Ayton. There are 29 other teams who would die for one of their bigs to get 30/8 in a game.
 
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Chaplin

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DA has 8 rebounds in the game. Some of you are ridiculously critical of DA. Oh...and you can't write me off at being overly protective or sensitive of DA because I have done a ton of calling him out since he was drafted by this team. Some of you are quick to take shots at the guy. He had 8 rebounds. That wasn't pathetic. He was 1.7 rebounds off his season average. One bounce here or there and he was right on his average. His season average puts him just outside the top 15 in the entire NBA. Not pathetic. For the season he is about .8 of a rebound off his career average which yes would just allow him to crack the top 10.

Some of you are acting like he has fallen off the cliff. Jeebus. A couple things. We DIDN'T have McGee, Biyombo and now Craig before which means some of those guys are grabbing those boards now.

Also, I am more concerned about the lack of contribution on the boards from others in the games we have lost. Last night?

McGee 6.7 Avg = 1
Biyombo 5.8 AVG = 1
Craig avg 4.7 = 4 but was off .7 similar to amount DA was off (looks like a shell of himself so far this year).......silence.
Bridges Avg 4.3 = 0
Cam J Avg 4.1 removed from the lineup being out
Booker being out removes 5.2 per game
Paul being out removes 4.5 per game

Just in injuries that is a major disadvantage. Our other two bigs that have been critical at times this season couldn't stay on the floor getting only 13 and 9 minutes respectively in a game we were getting worked on the boards.

Some of you are freaking ridiculous when it comes to Ayton. There are 29 other teams who would die for one of their bigs to get 30/8 in a game.
Have you watched the last two games? Stats are great. But he got 30 and 8 in a loss. Other guys should have stepped up but it’s not that he “only” got 8 rebounds. It’s how he DIDN’T get more. He was passive and didn’t fight for anything. That’s the problem here. He could have had TWICE as many rebounds if he wasn’t dogging it so much. That is definitely a concern against a big time opponent. And he knows it too based on his quote after the game.
 

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I’m pretty much done arguing over Ayton. I knew from his college days he wasn’t an alpha/superstar even though he has the talent to be that guy. If he shows up in the playoffs/finals and is impactful in the Suns winning a championship then I’ll be happy giving him whatever he wants.
 

Covert Rain

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Have you watched the last two games? Stats are great. But he got 30 and 8 in a loss. Other guys should have stepped up but it’s not that he “only” got 8 rebounds. It’s how he DIDN’T get more. He was passive and didn’t fight for anything. That’s the problem here. He could have had TWICE as many rebounds if he wasn’t dogging it so much. That is definitely a concern against a big time opponent. And he knows it too based on his quote after the game.
Yes and I was at multiple games the past few weeks. You have ridiculous expectations when it comes to Ayton. There are only 16 people in NBA history to average 12 rebounds or more per game in NBA history. Shaq is in the top 30 of all time averaging 10.85 per game and he was much stronger than Ayton who is getting 10.7. You guys are ridiculous.

I have been critical of him looking passive at times but some of the guys on the top 50 list couldn't do better than what Ayton is doing right now. Tim Duncan averaged 10.8 rebounds per game for his career. David Robinson 10.6. Nobody accused them of being passive on the boards and no I am not suggesting he is as good as either of those players.

THAT IS THE POINT. I get it. Being a #1 pick comes with some lofty expectations. Yes...I agree that there are times when he looks way too passive but you guys lack any perspective when it comes to Ayton and what he is doing. It's the same argument with people saying Book was an empty stat guy which we now know is B.S. People only use that argument when the team loses. When we win nobody makes those arguments.

You want to argue Ayton needs to be more consistent I am with you 100%. Arguing that he should be doing more on the boards averaging 12 per game which would put him in the top 16 all time in NBA history? Meh.
 
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Chaplin

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Yes and I was at multiple games the past few weeks. You have ridiculous expectations when it comes to Ayton. There are only 16 people in NBA history to average 12 rebounds or more per game in NBA history. Shaq is in the top 30 of all time averaging 10.85 per game and he was much stronger than Ayton who is getting 10.7. You guys are ridiculous.

I have been critical of him looking passive at times but some of the guys on the top 50 list couldn't do better than what Ayton is doing right now. Tim Duncan averaged 10.8 rebounds per game for his career. David Robinson 10.6. Nobody accused them of being passive on the boards and no I am not suggesting he is as good as either of those players.

THAT IS THE POINT. I get it. Being a #1 pick comes with some lofty expectations. Yes...I agree that there are times when he looks way too passive but you guys lack any perspective when it comes to Ayton and what he is doing. It's the same argument with people saying Book was an empty stat guy which we now know is B.S. People only use that argument when the team loses. When we win nobody makes those arguments.

You want to argue Ayton needs to be more consistent I am with you 100%. Arguing that he should be doing more on the boards averaging 12 per game which would put him in the top 16 all time in NBA history? Meh.
If he was working hard to get those 8 rebounds then we wouldn’t be having this conversation. But he isn’t and hasn’t for a while now. The difference is that we all KNOW he can do better. He just isn’t.

DA had 1 offensive rebound all night. As a team we only had 6 offensive rebounds, and nobody had more than 1. We missed 64 shots total. How can anyone, especially DA, only get 1 offensive rebound off of that many misses? Even if you remove the misses that he wasn't in the game for, it's still a massive amount of shots that he couldn't get his hands on. By contrast, the Bucks had 14 offensive rebounds. That's a huge discrepancy and DA is our best counter to it. He just didn't get it done.
 
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Covert Rain

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If he was working hard to get those 8 rebounds then we wouldn’t be having this conversation. But he isn’t and hasn’t for a while now. The difference is that we all KNOW he can do better. He just isn’t.
Dear lord...now you want to argue when someone isn't or isn't working hard. The crux of your argument is he should be getting 12 a game which would make him better than most in NBA history. Based on what exactly? His draft position? What makes you think he should be rebounding more than Shaq, Tim Duncan or David Robinson?

Maybe the issue isn't Ayton as much as your expectations. Like I said above, you want to argue that he should be more consistent...I am with you. Maybe part of that is being aggressive at the right times during a game. However, that doesn't equate to him outrebounding some of the best rebounders of all time. Saying he should average 12 per game lacks any perspective at all.
 

Chaplin

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Dear lord...now you want to argue when someone isn't or isn't working hard. The crux of your argument is he should be getting 12 a game which would make him better than most in NBA history. Based on what exactly? His draft position? What makes you think he should be rebounding more than Shaq, Tim Duncan or David Robinson?

Maybe the issue isn't Ayton as much as your expectations. Like I said above, you want to argue that he should be more consistent...I am with you. Maybe part of that is being aggressive at the right times during a game. However, that doesn't equate to him outrebounding some of the best rebounders of all time. Saying he should average 12 per game lacks any perspective at all.
He should be working harder. Do you dispute that? You watched the games. Do you dispute that he is doing everything he can to be aggressive and help his team win? Forget about the scoring for a minute. What else was he doing to help the team win?

You can throw around your "good lords" all you want, but you have yet to address the eye test. He's not even challenging for rebounds! And it doesn't concern you?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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The fact that people are arguing in support of his career low rebounds per game, a number that routinely got amare torched, after a game in which AYTON HIMSELF ADMITTED HE HAS TO BE A BETTER REBOUNDER, is hilarious.
 

Covert Rain

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He should be working harder. Do you dispute that? You watched the games. Do you dispute that he is doing everything he can to be aggressive and help his team win? Forget about the scoring for a minute. What else was he doing to help the team win?

You can throw around your "good lords" all you want, but you have yet to address the eye test. He's not even challenging for rebounds! And it doesn't concern you?
I addressed that pretty clearly. I still dispute 100% the ridiculous take he should be getting 12 rebounds per game and the other ridiculous expectations that lack any perspective at all. There is no basis at all and I don't care who says it that Ayton should be rebounding better than players like Shaq, Duncan, Robinson for example. LOL. Ayton can say what he wants about wanting to do better. HE SHOULD.

I will repeat just to be clear. I think Ayton's issues are not the number of rebounds per game he is getting. It's his consistency. It's knowing when to assert himself. It's been the same on the offensive end for example when he tries to lay it up instead of dunk. It's been that lack of nasty we would like to see at times. All things I have been critical of him about. All the rest is just hilarious fan fodder.

The entire team didn't do squat on the boards. Saying this was on Ayton is stoooooopid.
 
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We can argue about Ayton rebounding better but where was everybody else?

Crowder had 5 which is about his average. The same with Craig with 4.

However, Bridges had 0 in extended minutes. This hurt the most.

Also McGee had 1 and Biyombo 3 in limited minutes, lower than what they should produce.

When Cam Johnson plays, he averages about 4.
 
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Mainstreet

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An equally large problem, where was the Suns defense and why were they called for so many fouls?

The Suns lost the game at the free throw line.

Suns shot only 8-11 while the Bucks feasted shooting 23-29 from the free throw line.
 
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Covert Rain

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We can argue about Ayton rebounding better but where was everybody else?

Crowder had 5 which is about his average. The same with Craig with 4.

However, Bridges had 0 in extended minutes. This hurt the most.

Also McGee had 1 and Biyombo 3 in limited minutes, lower than what they should produce.

When Cam Johnson plays, he averages about 4.
Thank you! That's not even including the rebounding that was out of the lineup with Booker, Paul and Cam combined. Second chance points and rebounding has been the issue in our losses. Not one guy getting 4 more rebounds in a game.
 

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The Suns played a lot of zone and that always makes you susceptible to offensive rebounds since it's harder to block out.
 

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An equally large problem, where was the Suns defense and why were they called for do many fouls?

The Suns lost the game at the free throw line.

Suns shot only 8-11 while the Bucks feasted shooting 23-29 from the free throw line.

Yeah the FTs let them keep the game close. We really missed the defense that CP3 and Booker bring right now.

I had this written off as a loss from the start so not worried about it.
 
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Yeah the FTs let them keep the game close. We really missed the defense that CP3 and Booker bright now.

I had this written off as a loss from the start so not worried about it.
The really disappointing thing is how badly our defense has fallen off since CP3 went down. I thought it was going to be our commitment to D that would carry us down the stretch, but outside the Portland game, it’s become like a layup line and we’re giving up a ton of offensive rebounds. And while Ayton has definitely raised his game on O with Paul out, he’s also led the way to that defensive collapse in the last six games.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Yeah the FTs let them keep the game close. We really missed the defense that CP3 and Booker bright now.

I had this written off as a loss from the start so not worried about it.
Yeah I always hope to steal a game when they’re right there, but I had chalked this up to a loss so it doesn’t sting quite so much.
 

Covert Rain

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The really disappointing thing is how badly our defense has fallen off since CP3 went down. I thought it was going to be our commitment to D that would carry us down the stretch, but outside the Portland game, it’s become like a layup line and we’re giving up a ton of offensive rebounds. And while Ayton has definitely raised his game on O with Paul out, he’s also led the way to that defensive collapse in the last six games.
What is really scary? It fell that far off with a 36 year old Chris Paul. He was averaging the most steals since 2018. I think it's just his intensity. I don't think the team has anybody else to get in their face unless Paul is out there. The very definition of leadership.
 

zett

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I was proud of the way the team competed for 3 and a half quarters, in a game we had no business being in. I thought with 6 min to go it was possible to pull this off and then crunch time came and they were blistering hot, and we kinda caved. there were several things that went wrong. this argument over Ayton is a bit of frustration over the lack of effort he puts out on the boards. its not really about how many boards one gets, but more about opportunity McGee did not get enough run in this game in my opinion as Biyombo took a lot of his min and got pushed around to easily. McGee's 1 rebounding was at least an offensive one and got us 2 points. when they show the replays it's pretty easy to see whats going on who's working to block out who's getting shoved in the back with no call, and who is giving no effort at all. the complaints about Ayton's are legit to many times he just doesn't try. as far as Bridges is concerns his opportunities are limited due to the fact he is outside guarding shooters. some times a lot of balls will bounce his way, but he's not in there to bang the boards unless he ends up guarding a post up player. so comparing his numbers to a guy who's main job is under the rim to rebound is apples and oranges
 

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