15 thoughts - training camp

Gandhi

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1 - I have never bought into the “Keim is all in”-mantra. Any general manager, any head coach, any player, and any assistant in those mentioned departments must be all in every single year. If they are not, that is a much bigger reason for firing than only simple insufficiency.

But! It will be interesting to see the first glance of how the new approach to team building will work.

2 - Honestly, I was not excited when Zaven Collins was picked. I thought it was a wasted pick. But now he is a Cardinal and I support him 100%. I also think there are ways that he turns out to be a great pick, and I do think he could help the overall defense.

If you think back on the defenses with both Karlos Dansby and Daryl Washington, I thought it was one of the best Cardinals-defenses in my time as a fan. And those two had a big, big impact on that unit, and I remember that the level dropped significantly when Washington did whatever idiotic things he did. There is also the great 49-defenses with Patrick Willis and NaVorro Bowman, or the Seahawks-defenses with Bobby Wagner and K.J. Wright. You can find other examples of that nature, and the point is that, even though those defenses had a lot of great players on it, the two middle linebackers were arguably essential to make it work.

3 - Obviously depending on unknowns like Robert Alford, Marco Wilson and Taj Gowan, do you foresee a major trade involving at least a first-round pick? Xavien Howard from the Dolphins? Marshon Lattimore from the Saints? Stephon Gilmore from the Patriots?

4 – D.J. Humphries – Justin Pugh – Rodney Hudson – X – Kelvin Beachum. That is a solid, solid offensive line (and, kind of under-the-radar, the unit has been playing well for the last couple of years), but who plays the right guard? Justin Murray? Josh Jones? Brian Winters?

5 - I am excited to follow Dennis Gardeck. I have been on his bandwagon from he was brought in as an undrafted guy, and I thought it was a lot of fun to witness his minor breakthrough last season. I say “minor” because he must back it up now.

6 - Looks like T.E. Green are taking Dan Arnold’s spot in the offense, huh? Good thing that Arnold has never been playing traditional tight end.

7 – I have always been a defensive line-guy, so obviously it intrigues me a lot to find out how Leki Fotu, Rashad Lawrence and Zach Allen will progress.

8 - I am not sure that Chase Edmonds (or is it Deuce Edmonds now?) gets a bigger role in the offense since I never saw him as a backup to Kenyan Drake. I always saw him as a different kind of weapon, and I don’t see that changing this year. But I have always liked him, and it will be interesting if he can take yet another step forward in his progression.

9 - How does Chandler Jones-gate evolve?

10 – It’s big words – I know – but there might not be a player I am more excited to hear about than Rondale Moore.

11 – I know that it is basically an automatic reaction to criticize Vance Joseph, but I thought he did well two years ago, and last year he stepped even further up. Can he continue that trajectory?

12 – Seems a little strange to make this list without mentioning Kyler Murray, so let me do that now.

13 – J.J. Watt. Of course, J.J. Watt.

14 – I think that a lot of people are sleeping on Jalen Thompson, and I think that the safety-unit will be significantly stronger with him back.

By the way, I kind of want to see what James Wiggins, the late round pick, can do. Both because he is extremely athletic even for an NFL player, but also because he was once projected as a much higher draft pick before injuries set him back. Did you know that Jalen Thompson was projected as a second- to early third round pick before he entered the supplemental draft? Maybe history will repeat itself.

15 – Biggest upset after camp (and I am talking about things near the stratosphere of realism)? Andy Isabella making the final squad.
 

JosiahLee

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3. Sign me up for Howard at CB. I like the idea of a other vet while the young guys can be groomed.

4. I think it will be Murray. I think Jones will be slotted as the swing tackle.

6. Don’t worry, Fitz will be our TE ;)

14. Jalen is dead to me until he can prove that he isn’t injury prone. He’s gone done back to back seasons now. I’m really want to get excited about him but seems like he may not be durable. Hopefully I’m wrong.
 

slanidrac16

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3. Sign me up for Howard at CB. I like the idea of a other vet while the young guys can be groomed.

4. I think it will be Murray. I think Jones will be slotted as the swing tackle.

6. Don’t worry, Fitz will be our TE ;)

14. Jalen is dead to me until he can prove that he isn’t injury prone. He’s gone done back to back seasons now. I’m really want to get excited about him but seems like he may not be durable. Hopefully I’m wrong.
You must really love Alford , huh?
 

Solar7

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I've been a bit out of touch on football for the past couple of months - new job, and dedicating time to the Suns will do that. So, I only have real feedback on one item.

3. If we allow Keim to trade a first for anything, I'll have a meltdown.
 

Krangodnzr

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1 - I have never bought into the “Keim is all in”-mantra. Any general manager, any head coach, any player, and any assistant in those mentioned departments must be all in every single year. If they are not, that is a much bigger reason for firing than only simple insufficiency.

But! It will be interesting to see the first glance of how the new approach to team building will work.

2 - Honestly, I was not excited when Zaven Collins was picked. I thought it was a wasted pick. But now he is a Cardinal and I support him 100%. I also think there are ways that he turns out to be a great pick, and I do think he could help the overall defense.

If you think back on the defenses with both Karlos Dansby and Daryl Washington, I thought it was one of the best Cardinals-defenses in my time as a fan. And those two had a big, big impact on that unit, and I remember that the level dropped significantly when Washington did whatever idiotic things he did. There is also the great 49-defenses with Patrick Willis and NaVorro Bowman, or the Seahawks-defenses with Bobby Wagner and K.J. Wright. You can find other examples of that nature, and the point is that, even though those defenses had a lot of great players on it, the two middle linebackers were arguably essential to make it work.

3 - Obviously depending on unknowns like Robert Alford, Marco Wilson and Taj Gowan, do you foresee a major trade involving at least a first-round pick? Xavien Howard from the Dolphins? Marshon Lattimore from the Saints? Stephon Gilmore from the Patriots?

4 – D.J. Humphries – Justin Pugh – Rodney Hudson – X – Kelvin Beachum. That is a solid, solid offensive line (and, kind of under-the-radar, the unit has been playing well for the last couple of years), but who plays the right guard? Justin Murray? Josh Jones? Brian Winters?

5 - I am excited to follow Dennis Gardeck. I have been on his bandwagon from he was brought in as an undrafted guy, and I thought it was a lot of fun to witness his minor breakthrough last season. I say “minor” because he must back it up now.

6 - Looks like T.E. Green are taking Dan Arnold’s spot in the offense, huh? Good thing that Arnold has never been playing traditional tight end.

7 – I have always been a defensive line-guy, so obviously it intrigues me a lot to find out how Leki Fotu, Rashad Lawrence and Zach Allen will progress.

8 - I am not sure that Chase Edmonds (or is it Deuce Edmonds now?) gets a bigger role in the offense since I never saw him as a backup to Kenyan Drake. I always saw him as a different kind of weapon, and I don’t see that changing this year. But I have always liked him, and it will be interesting if he can take yet another step forward in his progression.

9 - How does Chandler Jones-gate evolve?

10 – It’s big words – I know – but there might not be a player I am more excited to hear about than Rondale Moore.

11 – I know that it is basically an automatic reaction to criticize Vance Joseph, but I thought he did well two years ago, and last year he stepped even further up. Can he continue that trajectory?

12 – Seems a little strange to make this list without mentioning Kyler Murray, so let me do that now.

13 – J.J. Watt. Of course, J.J. Watt.

14 – I think that a lot of people are sleeping on Jalen Thompson, and I think that the safety-unit will be significantly stronger with him back.

By the way, I kind of want to see what James Wiggins, the late round pick, can do. Both because he is extremely athletic even for an NFL player, but also because he was once projected as a much higher draft pick before injuries set him back. Did you know that Jalen Thompson was projected as a second- to early third round pick before he entered the supplemental draft? Maybe history will repeat itself.

15 – Biggest upset after camp (and I am talking about things near the stratosphere of realism)? Andy Isabella making the final squad.
1. I disagree on some levels. Some teams just aren't at the point that you go "all in". You could argue that the Cardinals saying they are all in is kind of just....talk. The team still has ample salary cap space and could make one more splash.

2. Collins wasn't the pick I'd make, but Keim's rationale was actually pretty sound. ILB is just not a splashy position, but it's not hard to argue that ILB was one of poorest performing positions on the team. Collins has outstanding upside, and when you hear that Belichick was considering Collins if Mac Jones wasn't available, it makes you feel better about him as a player. Sometimes the best players aren't at premium positions and sometimes it's better to go with more of a sure thing.

3. I don't think Keim is looking at adding a high priced vet corner via trade because he brought in Butler and Dennard and brought back Alford. I think that Keim went the approach of flooding a position of weakness with picks (Wilson and Gowan) and I'm happy that he at least went with guys that have upside.

4. I'd guess Murray wins the job even though I want Jones to. Murray is a solid player, but I would love him as the swing backup.

6. Maybe. I think Green signals that the team wants more from that other outside receiver spot and I think Kirk is going to be much better in the slot where he sometimes gets matched with backers and safeties which he can outquick and outrun.

7. I'll be happy if 2 of the three end up being solid rotation guys.

8. I agree with your assessment. I don't look at Chase as an every down back, but I think he is effective as an offensive weapon. Get him a decent running lane and he can get some extra yards.

10. I think Moore ends up being mostly a gadget player year one and the team probably lets Kirk walk next year and Moore will end up as the slot long term. I want to see some mesh plays with Kirk and Moore...teams will have to be very wise in picking their poison.

11. Joseph runs kind of a bend don't break kind of defense that seems to break in big moments, but is actually more effective than most fans give him credit for. Outside of the issues at corner, Joseph's defense really needs to step up again this year.

12. Murray goes as the Cardinals go. He must improve or the Cardinals are going to be super streaky. This team is built around him and the buck stops with him as far as players go. Murray is already one of my favorite Cardinals of all time and the sky is the limit on this kid.

13. JJ Watt's acquisition is being UNDERRATED by this board. Barring injury, he will be one of the Cardinals best players this year and the defense should be better with adding him alone. He is one of those rare DL who can impact the offense's ability to run AND pass.

14. Jalen Thompson is already a good NFL player, but he needs to stay healthy. No more excuses. I think Wiggins was brought in because he will be a core special teamer who will also provide quality depth in the future. Wiggins has the talent to surprise.

15. I think it's going to be tough for Isabella to make the roster. Hopkins, Green, Kirk, and Moore are pretty much locks. Isabella is going to have to play special teams and he hasn't been great on that end as of yet. I think he is very much on the bubble this year.
 

Solar7

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I think he has been particularly successful with making trades, Solar.
I don't think he should be here next year, and I don't think he should be spending a new GM's assets.

Does anyone really think we're winning it all this year? The team has to be significantly rebuilt next year based off of our team age and lack of young assets. Is Stephon Gilmore winning us a championship in a short deal for a first round pick?
 

slanidrac16

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I don't think he should be here next year, and I don't think he should be spending a new GM's assets.

Does anyone really think we're winning it all this year? The team has to be significantly rebuilt next year based off of our team age and lack of young assets. Is Stephon Gilmore winning us a championship in a short deal for a first round pick?
Ha! Winning it all??? We’ll be lucky to win 8 games. Take the under. Not being a Debbie downer or a darksider. JMHO.
 
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Gandhi

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1. I disagree on some levels. Some teams just aren't at the point that you go "all in". You could argue that the Cardinals saying they are all in is kind of just....talk. The team still has ample salary cap space and could make one more splash.

Well, it obviously depends on the definition of “all in.” To me, it is not only about spending a lot of money.

6. Maybe. I think Green signals that the team wants more from that other outside receiver spot and I think Kirk is going to be much better in the slot where he sometimes gets matched with backers and safeties which he can outquick and outrun.

Oh, I certainly agree. :) I meant his spot in a literal way. As being one of the often used on offense in the passing attack. :) I am also very excited to see Kirk more inside. Do you also think he might be at least above average there?
 

Krangodnzr

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unless kirk‘s arms lengthen or kyler’s inside accuracy improves, I’m not so hopeful

It opens up mesh routes more. To run mesh effectively, you need two outside receivers that have to at least be respected minimally by the defense.
 

Krangodnzr

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Well, it obviously depends on the definition of “all in.” To me, it is not only about spending a lot of money.



Oh, I certainly agree. :) I meant his spot in a literal way. As being one of the often used on offense in the passing attack. :) I am also very excited to see Kirk more inside. Do you also think he might be at least above average there?
That remains to be seen, but I think Kirk and Rondale opens up the playbook more.
 
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Gandhi

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unless kirk‘s arms lengthen or kyler’s inside accuracy improves, I’m not so hopeful

I think it is a more overall issue, CN, with Murray’s not-so-great intermediate throwing. I think that he needs to be better at taking what the defense gives him, and who knows if it will even result in a big play occasionally.

I do think Kirk is a better slot receiver than outside guy, and I do think it will be interesting if he can improve on his play – partly because of his and Murray’s relation.
 

slanidrac16

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Yes, you literally are.

...dbs
There is a difference between a darksider and being realistic. Don’t think you will want to research my years of posting. Most time my glass is almost always 3/4 full. The year we hired Wilks I predicted 3 wins. Last year I felt playoffs were within reach. This year I don’t think signing old and often injured players past their prime is the recipe for success.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I think it is a more overall issue, CN, with Murray’s not-so-great intermediate throwing. I think that he needs to be better at taking what the defense gives him, and who knows if it will even result in a big play occasionally.

I do think Kirk is a better slot receiver than outside guy, and I do think it will be interesting if he can improve on his play – partly because of his and Murray’s relation.
I have to admit, when we first drafted Kirk I thought he’d be a great slot guy. His stature and move abilities seem suited for that. But his big drops last year seemed to come on a shorter routes. Like he’s unable to adjust quickly enough on balls that reach him with velocity. That gives me concern about his play in the slot where his reaction time will likely be even shorter.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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There is a difference between a darksider and being realistic. Don’t think you will want to research my years of posting. Most time my glass is almost always 3/4 full. The year we hired Wilks I predicted 3 wins. Last year I felt playoffs were within reach. This year I don’t think signing old and often injured players past their prime is the recipe for success.
Wear “darksiders” as a badge of honor. On this board it has more often than not equated to being realistic and proven correct.
 

Krangodnzr

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Wear “darksiders” as a badge of honor. On this board it has more often than not equated to being realistic and proven correct.
Right. Pan every Cardinals move every year.

Takes a ton of creativity and bravery.

It was hilarious to read you guys do this act in 2015 or in 2008.
 

daves

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Ha! Winning it all??? We’ll be lucky to win 8 games. Take the under. Not being a Debbie downer or a darksider. JMHO.

Yes, you literally are.

There is a difference between a darksider and being realistic. Don’t think you will want to research my years of posting.
Blah blah... when you say "We’ll be lucky to win 8 games. Take the under" you may or may not be right, but by definition you're definitely being a Debbie Downer.

...dbs
 
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Krangodnzr

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Blah blah... when you say "We’ll be lucky to win 8 games. Take the under" you may or may not be right, but by definiteion you're definitely being a Debbie Downer.

...dbs
I look at the Cardinals as an around .500 ball club that could go either way depending on player growth and fit and injuries.

There have been years where the team was obviously going to be really bad, but this year isn't one of them.
 

slanidrac16

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Blah blah... when you say "We’ll be lucky to win 8 games. Take the under" you may or may not be right, but by definiteion you're definitely being a Debbie Downer.

...dbs
Okay call it what you want. But forgive me if I don’t call a pig with lipstick beautiful. You’ve got that covered.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Right. Pan every Cardinals move every year.

Takes a ton of creativity and bravery.

It was hilarious to read you guys do this act in 2015 or in 2008.
Except we didn’t because we praise the cardinals when they do well or when we see something we think will do well. We just don’t credit for it because you like to harp on the negative takes.

in the history of the cards in AZ who has been most accurate most frequently you think, darksiders or koolaid? A hint: not koolaid.

all one has to do is look at the suns board to see those tabbed as darksiders here being positive. In other words, darksiders isn’t a default, it’s driven by what we see from a mostly historically poorly run franchise. In The Whis and arians years were typically optimistic because we saw promise. In the Skelton-hall-scud years people complained about our “pessimism” lol at those complainers.

Fans that try to be realistic and temper expectations will always be called darksiders by those fans who refuse to read the tea leaves laid out before them.
 

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