Deciding who the best player ever is

[Mainstreet]

Kareem’s early 20’s/peak were still in the niche league years of the NBA but he was still dominant (not as much) once the ABA guys came over and the drafts of the late 70’s/early 80’s really pumped the league full of true talent. Granted a lot of that talent was on his team. Kareem was putting up massive numbers for LA but not winning much before Magic got there.

This adds one more player to the mix in Magic Johnson. Magic deserves considerations as one of the best players in the NBA too. Unfortunately his career was cut short.

 

[Hoop Head]

This adds one more player to the mix in Magic Johnson. Magic deserves considerations as one of the best players in the NBA too. Unfortunately his career was cut short.

Magic is largely regarded as the best PG of all time. I think its easier to get a consensus when discussing best player at each position.

PG - Magic
SG - Jordan
SF - LeBron
PF - Duncan
C - Wilt


Of course there are some guys who might be in the discussion there like Malone for PF, Kareem for C, and Stockton for PG but I would guess more people would agree with that than who is the definitive best player ever.

 

[Mainstreet]

Magic is largely regarded as the best PG of all time. I think its easier to get a consensus when discussing best player at each position.

PG - Magic
SG - Jordan
SF - LeBron
PF - Duncan
C - Wilt


Of course there are some guys who might be in the discussion there like Malone for PF, Kareem for C, and Stockton for PG but I would guess more people would agree with that than who is the definitive best player ever.

It's really hard to compare players in different eras. Also the way the game is officiated today makes a difference.

I do like comparing positions better. It's easier to discuss.

That second team is looking pretty good.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Magic is largely regarded as the best PG of all time. I think its easier to get a consensus when discussing best player at each position.

PG - Magic
SG - Jordan
SF - LeBron
PF - Duncan
C - Wilt


Of course there are some guys who might be in the discussion there like Malone for PF, Kareem for C, and Stockton for PG but I would guess more people would agree with that than who is the definitive best player ever.

If you say that three times in a row, slinslin will appear.

Magic is my all time non-Suns favorite player. He'd be top on my list but Chris Paul and Gary Payton wouldn't be too far behind. I know most would go for Stockton but I'd take either prime CP or GP over John.

 

[Hoop Head]

If you say that three times in a row, slinslin will appear.

Magic is my all time non-Suns favorite player. He'd be top on my list but Chris Paul and Gary Payton wouldn't be too far behind. I know most would go for Stockton but I'd take either prime CP or GP over John.

I loved GP back in Seattle but I don't know if I'd rank him that high. I can definitely see CP3 being that high and might take him over Stockton as well. I'd have Kidd ahead of Payton though. As a player he was in a league of his own during his prime.

 

[95pro]

Richard Jefferson calling out CP3 for falling? Doesn’t sound very professional as a commentator.

 

[95pro]

The infamous 2-1 Booker miss.

 

[GatorAZ]

The ABA lasted from 1967 to 1976. It siphoned off some talent from the NBA, but you also have to remember that the NBA had many fewer teams back in those days. Talent was concentrated on rosters. There were incredibly talented players in the NBA from the early 1960's on.

I will rest my case with this one, since I am not going to change anyone's mind anyway. Wilt is the GOAT, all other discussions are about second place.

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Wilt and Shaq are about even on my all time list. Both could’ve been even better had they had the commitment of other greats. I’d like to think Shaq played in the true center era with Hakeem, Duncan, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo etc.

Wilt towered over everyone including Russell who 6’9”-6’10” tops. It’s just difficult to gauge him vs different era players when he was a high schooler playing against 8th graders. For the record it’s not a knock because you can’t control who you play.

 

[GatorAZ]

If you say that three times in a row, slinslin will appear.

Magic is my all time non-Suns favorite player. He'd be top on my list but Chris Paul and Gary Payton wouldn't be too far behind. I know most would go for Stockton but I'd take either prime CP or GP over John.

Gary was so GD boring to watch but he was definitely great.., Stockton was more skilled, better handles, passer/shooter. He didn’t have the upside as a defender Payton did but he was consistory pretty good in that regard .

 

[Bufalay]

The ABA lasted from 1967 to 1976. It siphoned off some talent from the NBA, but you also have to remember that the NBA had many fewer teams back in those days. Talent was concentrated on rosters. There were incredibly talented players in the NBA from the early 1960's on.

I will rest my case with this one, since I am not going to change anyone's mind anyway. Wilt is the GOAT, all other discussions are about second place.

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I will always think chamberlain is the best too.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Everything you're saying here would be true of all the other players that played at that time. So do you discount Elgin, Jerry, Oscar, Russell and all the other greats? Anyway, I've never seen a player in any era that so physically outclassed every one else on the court. The closest would have been Shaq before he landed in LA and he was a pale, pale, pale shadow of the physical specimen that was Wilt.

Despite what the numbers show, Wilt didn't lose a thing in his career. He was so far above every one else that he didn't just go into cruise mode at times like some do, he virtually ignored the game. Didn't practice, got most of his exercise in the bedroom and enjoyed life away from the court.

Yes I am saying that all of the numbers from players in the 50s to early 60s are inflated.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yes I am saying that all of the numbers from players in the 50s to early 60s are inflated.

But similarly all of the numbers of players in the 90s are deflated.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

But similarly all of the numbers of players in the 90s are deflated.

Specifically mid 90s to mid 00s. The pace was super slow back then.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I just have a hard time taking Wilt’s numbers seriously. He put up his biggest numbers early in his career when the talent wasn’t all that deep. In the early 60s the style of play was also non stop running and it was normal for your best players to play the entire game. His numbers are inflated due to these things.

Yes I am saying that all of the numbers from players in the 50s to early 60s are inflated.

I believe you're focusing on an aspect or two that supports your conclusion and ignoring a few other facts. First off, his drop-off in numbers had nothing to do with the talent in the league. Some of this is speculation (but it's from that time, not after the fact) that Wilt started caring more about numbers than rings because he knew that he'd never be able to match the Celtics numbers.

He was still putting up huge numbers when the Warriors moved to San Francisco but the fans didn't take to him like they had in Philadelphia. When they still couldn't get past the Celtics the local fans turned against him. The more they booed him it seemed the more selfish he became. Eventually the owner sold him back to a Philadelphia franchise and Wilt's interest began to wane.

The Head Coach (and GM Jack Ramsay) talked him into playing team ball for a season or two and they actually win a championship his 2nd or 3rd year back in Philly. His scoring numbers were down (especially attempts which were 25 fewer than his peak) but his efficiency went way up and he was still a dominant rebounder. But for the most part, with the ring on his hand, Wilt's life by this time was about anything other than basketball.

As for the talent level, when Wilt came into the league there were only 8 teams. Maybe by 68 or so when they expanded to 14 teams the talent pool was stretched a little thin but he was well past his big numbers days by that point.

Also, maybe the actual pace was higher than average, I'm not sure, but certainly scoring was higher. But it just wasn't what you're describing, they didn't run all the time. The higher scoring was more about bad shooting, turnovers and offensive rebounds allowing for significantly more attempts. That still allows for padded stat sheets but not demonstrably so yet the difference between Wilt's prime numbers and anyone else's are impressive.

 

[Mainstreet]

@AzStevenCal

This is why I introduced Kareem Abdul-Jabbar into the equation because more fans know how good Kareem was. Chamberlain must have blocked Kareem on three consecutive shot attempts.

 

[AzStevenCal]

@AzStevenCal

This is why I introduced Kareem Abdul-Jabbar into the equation because more fans know how good Kareem was. Chamberlain must have blocked Kareem on three consecutive shot attempts.

I was a huge Kareem fan, not so much when it came to Wilt. He just wasn't very likable as a person and I didn't like watching him play either. The press didn't like either of them but I guess they disliked Kareem a little less at the time, over the years though that probably flipped.

Anyway, it seemed like every offseason in the 70's you'd hear stories about pickup games at UCLA where a retired Wilt would dominate everyone including Kareem. And Jabbar was clearly the best player in the NBA at the time. And then there would be the rumors that Wilt was un-retiring and going to play for us. I started liking him a little more when I heard those stories.

 

[Mainstreet]

I was a huge Kareem fan, not so much when it came to Wilt. He just wasn't very likable as a person and I didn't like watching him play either. The press didn't like either of them but I guess they disliked Kareem a little less at the time, over the years though that probably flipped.

Anyway, it seemed like every offseason in the 70's you'd hear stories about pickup games at UCLA where a retired Wilt would dominate everyone including Kareem. And Jabbar was clearly the best player in the NBA at the time. And then there would be the rumors that Wilt was un-retiring and going to play for us. I started liking him a little more when I heard those stories.

Chamberlain playing for the Suns would have been pretty cool.

Admittedly I was an admirer of Kareem's game even after the Suns lost the coin flip. He played center with grace and elegance like few players can.

Surprisingly after watching some old videos there seemed to be a consensus that Kareem was the better offensive player even by Wilt unless he was being sarcastic. They didn't seem to like each other very much.

 

[ajcardfan]

Gary was so GD boring to watch but he was definitely great.., Stockton was more skilled, better handles, passer/shooter. He didn’t have the upside as a defender Payton did but he was consistory pretty good in that regard .

And Kevin Johnson routinely lit up both of them. Especially Stockton.

 

[ajcardfan]

Specifically mid 90s to mid 00s. The pace was super slow back then.

The NBA got damn near unwatchable during that stretch. It was thug basketball.

 

[GatorAZ]

And Kevin Johnson routinely lit up both of them. Especially Stockton.

Stockton killed him in 91’ (based on the stats). Utah was the better team but still.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

The main reason why Jordan had fewer finals (other than playing less years) is that he played during a time that the East was really good. LeBron played in the East during a time that the East was really poor.

LeBron's biggest opposition was always in the Finals and that is why he only went 4 of 10 in the finals. Jordan's biggest opposition was often on the way to the finals which is why his teams made "only" 6 finals, but is also why they went 6/6 and never even faced a game 7 in the finals, but went to 7 multiple times on the way there.

Jordan had relatively easy roads to the Finals most of the years he made it (the West was far stronger than the East in the 90s):

1991: he went up against the 16th, 15th, and 9th best teams (equivalent this year would be Miami, Memphis, and Dallas: first round sweep, loss in 5, loss in 7)

1992: 21st, 7th, and 5th

1993 (an anomaly): 16th, 2nd, 5th

1996: 13th, 10th, 5th

1997: 13th, 5th, 4th

1998: 14th, 11th, 4th


If the Suns take down Utah next round, they will have gone through the 8th, 6th, and 1st best teams in the league: a tougher row than Jordan ever had to hoe to make a Finals.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

You are the gm. You have all the players who have ever played NBA ball healthy and standing against the wall like pickup games in elementary school.

Who is your first pick?

For me, its Wilt, without a doubt.

It depends on what era the game is played in:

1. Before the 3-pt line, I am probably going with Shaq, Wilt, or Kareem

2. Post 3-pt line but pre Warriors revolution, I am probably considering Jordan or LeBron.

3. Modern NBA of right now with the need to have elite defensive bigs that can’t get played off the floor as well as elite shooting and passing are at a premium there is a good argument for KG or maybe Hakeem.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

The ABA lasted from 1967 to 1976. It siphoned off some talent from the NBA, but you also have to remember that the NBA had many fewer teams back in those days. Talent was concentrated on rosters. There were incredibly talented players in the NBA from the early 1960's on.

I will rest my case with this one, since I am not going to change anyone's mind anyway. Wilt is the GOAT, all other discussions are about second place.

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Wilt reminds me of Giannis.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It depends on what era the game is played in:

1. Before the 3-pt line, I am probably going with Shaq, Wilt, or Kareem

2. Post 3-pt line but pre Warriors revolution, I am probably considering Jordan or LeBron.

3. Modern NBA of right now with the need to have elite defensive bigs that can’t get played off the floor as well as elite shooting and passing are at a premium there is a good argument for KG or maybe Hakeem.

Shaq? Pre3? OK. You just rang the bell on the barber shop again.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Shaq? Pre3? OK. You just rang the bell on the barber shop again.

Absolutely, pre-3pt era the most important component of winning was control of the rim area: Shaq was arguably the most dominant rim force in league history. Kareem and Wilt are the only two bigs that compare. This isn’t rocket science.