Suns @ Warriors Tuesday game thread 5-11-2021

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
59,897
Reaction score
51,213
Location
SoCal
I'd agree if he was the only one involved. But if we bomb out in the playoffs and that's the straw for Devin, I think we'd see CP opt out and Booker demand a trade. At that point, gambling on DA makes less sense. If DB is still committed though, I think we have to take the risk and pay Ayton a lot of money.
Agreed. If Paul bolts and book wants out I think you go OKC and it’s a fire sale for draft picks.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
59,897
Reaction score
51,213
Location
SoCal
how come Dario doesn’t do 360 windmill dunks during the game’s?

complaining about something a guys not isn’t going to make him who you want him to be no matter how much you complain.

should and could be are different than reality
Lol bc Dario physically cannot do that. Ayton can be a star. He’s demonstrated that over stretches when he plays with effort and aggression. He controls that - it is not a physical limitation. How you fail to understand that is beyond me.

so I suppose you won’t complain about bookers mental meltdowns anymore, right? I mean, he’s established that’s who he is over a much longer period of time than has ayton.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
59,897
Reaction score
51,213
Location
SoCal
I can't think of a plan involving Ayton that doesn't feel a little insane.

As for motivation, I really believe he wants to be loved, he wants to be great and he wants money (big money). But how hard is he really willing to work in order to get any of those things? With what he's made so far and what he's sure to get as a free agent even if he doesn't step it up, he and his family will be set for generations if the money is handled properly.
This
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
59,897
Reaction score
51,213
Location
SoCal
And Booker isn’t going to be LeBron or Steph no matter how much you complain, but you still do it. None of us are banging on you to stop “crying”about Booker, so why do you feel the need to keep banging on us about the guy we’re disappointed in?
It’s complete hypocrisy on Finito’s part. The fact that he can’t see and admit it when it’s pointed out to him in its simplest form means it’s just not a worthwhile conversation.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
59,897
Reaction score
51,213
Location
SoCal
you really want to compare how I talk about Booker to you and your brother on the Ayton train? Seriously?

Ayton isn’t a 2x all star either.
And Booker isn’t an anytime all nba performer, MVP, or finals MVP. What’s your point?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
59,897
Reaction score
51,213
Location
SoCal
Who exactly is DA? That's the frustrating part, at least for me.

Is he the guy that averaged 21ppg and 12.5rpg during an 18 game stretch last season that included a 26 point 21 rebound game and a 28 and 19 game. Or, is he the shy timid child we have seen lately?
Exactly. He has a range of potentials. Whether he exerts the effort to max out is on him, despite what finito wants to believe.
 

Dr dumas

Veteran
Joined
Dec 27, 2018
Posts
147
Reaction score
147
Location
Arizona
Booker from time to time still has mental lapses where his immaturity gets the best of him. It’s hard to be upset with Book in the same way as Ayton as you can at least see the determination with Book.

Ayton HAS shown flashes of greatness, so that’s where the frustration is coming from. When the guy shows up for every 1 out of 4/5 games, how can you not be frustrated.

I personally just don’t think the guy has the grit/determination/fire.. whatever you want to label it to ever be consistent and achieve greatnesses. He would prefer to float through games.
 

Chaplin

Better off silent
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
44,677
Reaction score
14,127
Location
Round Rock, TX
I called the team below average when Ayton disappears, not when he fails to play well. You've even responded (and quoted) my posts where I made this point over and over and yet you continue to misrepresent my comments. Please stop doing that.

Without Ayton's effort on defense, we are a below average team. That's why we have 14 losses this season to teams that were below average or missing their best players. And that does not include our losses to teams that were missing non-star starters (Atlanta for example) or teams that have played the entire season without a key player (last night's loss for example).

When DA mails it in on defense, we are a below average team, even if he puts up a double double. His defense is critical to our success and his lack of intensity on defense is a significant factor in most of our losses.
This is what you said.

This team, with bad Ayton or no Ayton, is below average.

"No Ayton" is referring to when Ayton disappears, but "bad Ayton" does mean that he isn't playing well. Not sure why you are calling me out on this one.
 
OP
OP
Mainstreet

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
112,537
Reaction score
51,772
Booker from time to time still has mental lapses where his immaturity gets the best of him. It’s hard to be upset with Book in the same way as Ayton as you can at least see the determination with Book.

Ayton HAS shown flashes of greatness, so that’s where the frustration is coming from. When the guy shows up for every 1 out of 4/5 games, how can you not be frustrated.

I personally just don’t think the guy has the grit/determination/fire.. whatever you want to label it to ever be consistent and achieve greatnesses. He would prefer to float through games.

Ayton's weaknesses are magnified because he is so integral to the Suns defense. They don't have a defensive power forward that can help. They also need his offense but his defense is critical to the success of the team.

Maybe Ayton eventually grows into the role, maybe not, but it is more of a personnel issue that there is not more athletic size on this team. Being reliant on the center to carry the Suns interior load offensively and defensively is asking too much night in and night out.

A team like the Lakers have Drummond, Gasol, Harrell, Davis, Morris and Lebron.
 

elindholm

edited for content
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Posts
26,831
Reaction score
8,074
Location
L.A. area
But even if he was like 26, that's the PRIME of your athletic career!

Right, except he came to the game very late. What appears to be lack of effort could instead be extremely poor instincts. Like Bender, he gets overwhelmed by anything that's not a clear-cut decision. That could easily be because he didn't pick up the game until he was 16, instead of at age 12 like his bio says. (And even 12 is awfully late.)
 
OP
OP
Mainstreet

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
112,537
Reaction score
51,772
Right, except he came to the game very late. What appears to be lack of effort could instead be extremely poor instincts. Like Bender, he gets overwhelmed by anything that's not a clear-cut decision. That could easily be because he didn't pick up the game until he was 16, instead of at age 12 like his bio says. (And even 12 is awfully late.)

It's frustrating when Ayton has digit scoring and rebounding 3 out of his last four games. Actually there are a number of games like this during the season but it is become more pronounced after the last win over Utah.

Ayton has performed well most of the season but the Suns have no salve when he under performs especially since Saric' play has diminished.

Maybe we should be talking about how the team is built rather than simply Ayton. It's built for small ball when the league is going big.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
35,866
Reaction score
14,554
This is what you said.



"No Ayton" is referring to when Ayton disappears, but "bad Ayton" does mean that he isn't playing well. Not sure why you are calling me out on this one.

This is what you said that I am referring to: Calling the team below average when Ayton doesn't play well is DEFINITELY exaggeration. When Ayton doesn't play well it means every other level of performance that isn't considered "playing well" and that was never my point. When he has an okay but not great game, we're still pretty good. When he disappears or gives half-hearted effort for most of the game, we are below average.
 

Proximo

ASFN Icon
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Posts
11,763
Reaction score
9,355
Who exactly is DA? That's the frustrating part, at least for me.

Is he the guy that averaged 21ppg and 12.5rpg during an 18 game stretch last season that included a 26 point 21 rebound game and a 28 and 19 game. Or, is he the shy timid child we have seen lately?

I think he is both.

Here is what I mean. Ayton's production is largely a function of how well the team feeds him the ball.

I don't really see how anyone can argue with that - he creates ZERO offense for himself. Maybe 5 times a season he will take the ball from the top of the key and attempt to make a move towards the basket.

ALL of his offense either comes from pick and roll, feeding him in the post, or offensive put backs.

He hit 4 of 5 shots in last nights game. He did not play badly offensively - he just did not get the ball.

His defensive effort is really only noticable when he is facing a team that has a post up threat, or likes to slash to the basket a lot.

Golden state last night primarily just shot jump shots, or posted up wiggins. Of course he did not have much impact last night.
 

Finito

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Posts
20,906
Reaction score
13,586
It’s complete hypocrisy on Finito’s part. The fact that he can’t see and admit it when it’s pointed out to him in its simplest form means it’s just not a worthwhile conversation.

I’ve already addressed this time and time again.

like I said if he’s the reason we suck when he’s not playing well then he’s the reason we’re good to right


But nope it’s well um if he plays like this or like that and if it’s a full moon on Sunday and the wind blows towards the East lol


I hold Booker to a higher standard than Ayton if you don’t and you see them as equals well then I don’t see a bright future for this team and why are we even having this conversation
 

Finito

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Posts
20,906
Reaction score
13,586
Right, except he came to the game very late. What appears to be lack of effort could instead be extremely poor instincts. Like Bender, he gets overwhelmed by anything that's not a clear-cut decision. That could easily be because he didn't pick up the game until he was 16, instead of at age 12 like his bio says. (And even 12 is awfully late.)

stop with the Bender stuff I think one thing everyone can agree there’s no comparison between those two
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
88,099
Reaction score
60,401
I think he is both.

Here is what I mean. Ayton's production is largely a function of how well the team feeds him the ball.

I don't really see how anyone can argue with that - he creates ZERO offense for himself. Maybe 5 times a season he will take the ball from the top of the key and attempt to make a move towards the basket.

ALL of his offense either comes from pick and roll, feeding him in the post, or offensive put backs.

He hit 4 of 5 shots in last nights game. He did not play badly offensively - he just did not get the ball.

His defensive effort is really only noticable when he is facing a team that has a post up threat, or likes to slash to the basket a lot.

Golden state last night primarily just shot jump shots, or posted up wiggins. Of course he did not have much impact last night.

wha? They dominated the glass and scored 62 points in the paint. Both areas that Ayton should at LEAST make an impact considering he’s bigger than everyone on the court. He was also atrocious on switches, barely even putting effort in to contest at the end of the game.

and You can’t feed a guy on offense who takes himself out of it most of the time.
 

Chaplin

Better off silent
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
44,677
Reaction score
14,127
Location
Round Rock, TX
This is what you said that I am referring to: Calling the team below average when Ayton doesn't play well is DEFINITELY exaggeration. When Ayton doesn't play well it means every other level of performance that isn't considered "playing well" and that was never my point. When he has an okay but not great game, we're still pretty good. When he disappears or gives half-hearted effort for most of the game, we are below average.
And I disagree with that.
 
OP
OP
Mainstreet

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
112,537
Reaction score
51,772
We can't forget the Suns have the second best record in the NBA and a winning percentage of .696.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
35,866
Reaction score
14,554
And I disagree with that.

Nothing wrong with that but it would help if you were more specific. Which part of my post do you disagree with? Do you disagree that there are levels between Ayton playing well and Ayton playing horribly? Or do you disagree that when Ayton loafs on defense we become a below average team?
 

Chaplin

Better off silent
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
44,677
Reaction score
14,127
Location
Round Rock, TX
Nothing wrong with that but it would help if you were more specific. Which part of my post do you disagree with? Do you disagree that there are levels between Ayton playing well and Ayton playing horribly? Or do you disagree that when Ayton loafs on defense we become a below average team?
I said it -- if Ayton is missing or not playing well, I still think we are NOT a below average team. At worst without Ayton we are average. We've had to play more with a bad Ayton this year than with a good one and we have won 40 games.
 

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
534,787
Posts
5,246,324
Members
6,273
Latest member
sarahmoose
Top