Status of the line heading into the off-season

[GuernseyCard]

I've been starting to pray we don't pay Drake or Breida. What a waste of money when we don't have starters at 7-9 positions across the team. If we re-sign Murray or Gilbert we have to look for a better player in the draft. It just has to happen.

And we shouldn't be re-signing Shipley at all. But it looks like what they'll be doing.

If the Cardinals make no changes at OL in a year where we started a street free agent all year long, I'll want to fire Keim even more than I did this past season. It's going to get Kyler killed to keep ignoring it.

Would you please stop with the Kyler 'killed' crap!

If it was going to happen with the present configuration, he'd already be pushing daisies.

 

[BritCard]

Good post.

Knowing Steve Keim I expect the following to happen.

Extend Hump for too much money. Hump will slip on the stairs 2 minutes after he signs that deal and his ACL will somehow vanish.
Extend AQ for too much money, I'm expecting $5m. That's $5m we don't need to spend for average play when we have Cole ready to start.
Extend Gilbert on a cheap deal to compete for RT with Murray.
Draft some guy on Day 3 as per usual who flits around the depth of the team for 2 years before getting cut.

As you can see, I'm optimistic

 

[Solar7]

Would you please stop with the Kyler 'killed' crap!

If it was going to happen with the present configuration, he'd already be pushing daisies.

You never know when it's going to happen. I feel like I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't when it comes to Kyler. I want to see him get better and have time to throw, without happy feet or trying to extend the play and taking a sack? Gotta be a negative thing.

Fine, not killed, just not running for his life. I can't find the pressure numbers for the season anywhere, but I'd imagine they don't look good.

Edit: What I could find was his pressured completion % to clean pocket completion %. 30.6% to 74.4% respectively. I was also able to find a stat from mid-November saying he was the hardest player to sack in the NFL by about 20% to the next guy. The article mentioned he was taking a ton of pressures.

 

[slanidrac16]

I've been starting to pray we don't pay Drake or Breida. What a waste of money when we don't have starters at 7-9 positions across the team. If we re-sign Murray or Gilbert we have to look for a better player in the draft. It just has to happen.

And we shouldn't be re-signing Shipley at all. But it looks like what they'll be doing.

If the Cardinals make no changes at OL in a year where we started a street free agent all year long, I'll want to fire Keim even more than I did this past season. It's going to get Kyler killed to keep ignoring it.

So we don’t sign Drake or Breida. Are you saying we head into next year with DJ as our starting running back? Or perhaps spend a second or third pick on one instead of adding to this defense. Please don’t say DJ is the answer.

 

[Solar7]

So we don’t sign Drake or Breida. Are you saying we head into next year with DJ as our starting running back? Or perhaps spend a second or third pick on one instead of adding to this defense. Please don’t say DJ is the answer.

Yes, I say we go with a combination of DJ, Edmonds, and a draft pick. I think Drake is a bum who just wants to get paid and has never shown he's able to consistently produce. The instant he gets his cash, Miami Drake will be back again, producing one or two hundred yard games a year, only this time with a contract hamstringing us across two RBs. I think Breida is a walking MASH unit and is undersized and limited.

I don't love DJ's production but I sure do prefer it to Justin Murray.

 

[DVontel]

These reason Kenyan Drake has produced this season is because he got away from loser Gase.

As did Ryan Tannehill.

As did DeVante Parker.

As did Jarvis Landry.

As will Sam Darnold once that loser gets away from him.

 

[BritCard]

You never know when it's going to happen. I feel like I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't when it comes to Kyler. I want to see him get better and have time to throw, without happy feet or trying to extend the play and taking a sack? Gotta be a negative thing.

Fine, not killed, just not running for his life. I can't find the pressure numbers for the season anywhere, but I'd imagine they don't look good.

There are a lot of confusing stats about this line.

ESPN has them ranked quite highly in PBWR. But it's ESPN.
PFF ranks them 22nd for the season, but that was dragged down by run blocking which would suggest their pass blocking was around 17th. They also have Kyler as culpable for 22 of the sacks taken.
Next Gen Stats had us 4th in the league for sustained pass block win rate. That is the amount of times our line protected Kyler for more than 2.5 seconds. Last I saw anyway.

But my eyes tell me this.

They were better than previous years, but that was mainly aided by much improved health.

They did well against weak to average defensive lines (Browns, Seahawks with injuries etc) but were murdered by teams with good D lines (Rams, Seahawks healthy, Steelers etc). The only good D line I thought we handled well was the Niners.

That tells me they were average at best.

Here's why I think Keim would be a fool to think this O line is OK to move forward with.

1. What are the odds of them staying healthy again? The odds of them staying healthy one year were slim so 2 years must be tiny.
2. Hump has hit his ceiling. I thought he would progress if he could stay healthy, but he actually regressed slightly as the season went on and his contract year was average. He's a high floor, low ceiling player. Won't suck but will never be great. Do we want a LT that's always going to be average?
3. AQ has always been below average and he isn't getting better with age.
4. We have 3 of the best D lines in the league in our division. Our O line HAS to be top 15 to compete.

Let Hump walk. Draft a LT at #8. Use the $10m saved to improve the D.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Upgrades at C and RT would make a world of difference...and also KM having any resemblance of pocket awareness is probably the biggest catalyst.

 

[TheCardFan]

Upgrades at C and RT would make a world of difference...and also KM having any resemblance of pocket awareness is probably the biggest catalyst.

We need some depth at G as well. If that is Cole and Galliard fine (I trust Kugler) but wonder why neither one can break through at C then.

 

[AZman5103]

Offensive Line: Best and most realistic options for 2020

LT - Humphries on the tag, make him prove last years health and production wasn't a fluke
LG - Pugh Stays
C - Resign Shipley - PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD to a very cheap deal, because he wouldn't even get a FA contract from another team
RG - Sweezy Stays
RT - Resign Murray to a team friendly deal

Bench - Toth as the swing tackle, Cole as interior, Galliard as interior, Draft the best O-Line value within the first 3 rounds. Ideally its someone that could be expected to take over either LT or an interior spot in 2021. Ideas are Trey Smith, Prince Wanagho, Josh Jones, or Trey Adams

Defensive Line:
Keep in the rotation - Peters, Allen, Dogbe, Resign either Kerr or Bullard

Add - 2 big time FA signings, one star and one mid-level guy. Chris Jones and then someone like Ashawn Robinson, Andrew Billings, or Christian Covington (someone who wont break the bank but will probably start for a year or two and be a dependable rotation guy). Chris Jones is the guy we need to back up the brinks truck for if he becomes available, and if someone like Calais is cut then he is worth spending money for.

Draft- At least one D-Lineman in the first 3 rounds. My pick is Raekwon Davis in the 2nd or 3rd round. Tons of talent and impossible to move in the run game. If by chance Kinlaw is their in the 2nd round, which he won't be, you run to the podium and have your 3/4 DE for the next 10 years.

 

[BritCard]

We need some depth at G as well. If that is Cole and Galliard fine (I trust Kugler) but wonder why neither one can break through at C then.

I have a theory.

Keim likes AQ. Personally. I think he gets close to some players.

What GM would extend a bottom 3rd C in the league at that age immediately after an ACL injury? I didn't mind it at the price for depth but then they gave him the starters job back too.

I think his personal liking of players interferes with his judgement. It's why he extended DJ without seeing him play a snap (what a bad move that was), same with Badger.

And I expect the same will happen with Hump. Keim's personal liking of the guy will effect his judgement and he will end up with $14m+ over 4 years and $32m in guarantees.

 

[slanidrac16]

Yes, I say we go with a combination of DJ, Edmonds, and a draft pick. I think Drake is a bum who just wants to get paid and has never shown he's able to consistently produce. The instant he gets his cash, Miami Drake will be back again, producing one or two hundred yard games a year, only this time with a contract hamstringing us across two RBs. I think Breida is a walking MASH unit and is undersized and limited.

I don't love DJ's production but I sure do prefer it to Justin Murray.

I read somewhere that Drake was 3rd in the league in yards after contact. DJ is SLOW to the hole. I’ve seen enough. I love Edmonds. Your problem is you think we simply draft a rookie and everything will be fine.... until he needs to play and misses a blitz pick-up, another problem that DJ has. You want to see this offense come to a grinding halt? Go forward with DJ and PRAY nothing happens to Edmonds. No running game would turn this o-line totally ineffective.

Every point you bring up leaves gaping holes elsewhere. How can you be so damn sure that Drake will turn into a bum?

My idea is to keep this offense as intact as we can. Take year two and make some serious upgrades on defense.

Your idea? Dump Drake cause he’ll be a bum. Dump humphries and draft a rookie who might not be there when we pick, sign Conklin who may never leave Tennessee. Replace 3/5ths of the offensive line and everything will be fine. Go with Edmonds who is complimentary back not a bell cow. Stick with DJ cause, we’ll why not. And simply draft a rookie rb to replace Drake. Did I miss something?

 

[slanidrac16]

Offensive Line: Best and most realistic options for 2020

LT - Humphries on the tag, make him prove last years health and production wasn't a fluke
LG - Pugh Stays
C - Resign Shipley - PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD to a very cheap deal, because he wouldn't even get a FA contract from another team
RG - Sweezy Stays
RT - Resign Murray to a team friendly deal

Bench - Toth as the swing tackle, Cole as interior, Galliard as interior, Draft the best O-Line value within the first 3 rounds. Ideally its someone that could be expected to take over either LT or an interior spot in 2021. Ideas are Trey Smith, Prince Wanagho, Josh Jones, or Trey Adams

Defensive Line:
Keep in the rotation - Peters, Allen, Dogbe, Resign either Kerr or Bullard

Add - 2 big time FA signings, one star and one mid-level guy. Chris Jones and then someone like Ashawn Robinson, Andrew Billings, or Christian Covington (someone who wont break the bank but will probably start for a year or two and be a dependable rotation guy). Chris Jones is the guy we need to back up the brinks truck for if he becomes available, and if someone like Calais is cut then he is worth spending money for.

Draft- At least one D-Lineman in the first 3 rounds. My pick is Raekwon Davis in the 2nd or 3rd round. Tons of talent and impossible to move in the run game. If by chance Kinlaw is their in the 2nd round, which he won't be, you run to the podium and have your 3/4 DE for the next 10 years.

Offensive Line: Best and most realistic options for 2020

LT - Humphries on the tag, make him prove last years health and production wasn't a fluke
LG - Pugh Stays
C - Resign Shipley - PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD to a very cheap deal, because he wouldn't even get a FA contract from another team
RG - Sweezy Stays
RT - Resign Murray to a team friendly deal

Bench - Toth as the swing tackle, Cole as interior, Galliard as interior, Draft the best O-Line value within the first 3 rounds. Ideally its someone that could be expected to take over either LT or an interior spot in 2021. Ideas are Trey Smith, Prince Wanagho, Josh Jones, or Trey Adams

Defensive Line:
Keep in the rotation - Peters, Allen, Dogbe, Resign either Kerr or Bullard

Add - 2 big time FA signings, one star and one mid-level guy. Chris Jones and then someone like Ashawn Robinson, Andrew Billings, or Christian Covington (someone who wont break the bank but will probably start for a year or two and be a dependable rotation guy). Chris Jones is the guy we need to back up the brinks truck for if he becomes available, and if someone like Calais is cut then he is worth spending money for.

Draft- At least one D-Lineman in the first 3 rounds. My pick is Raekwon Davis in the 2nd or 3rd round. Tons of talent and impossible to move in the run game. If by chance Kinlaw is their in the 2nd round, which he won't be, you run to the podium and have your 3/4 DE for the next 10 years.

a sensible plan but you’re going to get blasted by basically sticking with the o- line. Jones is going to get tagged. I want to see us add a DE a DT and an OLB. Draft Simmons and we are well on our way to seriously upgrading this pathetic defense.

 

[BritCard]

You have to consider the salary cap implications of all this too.

Hump is going to get $14m.
AQ I hear is being offered $5.

That's $19m of our cap space or 25% gone on average players.

Then you have,

Fitz $11m
Drake $6m
J.Murray $2m
Hundley $4m
Cooper $2m
Depth players to replace Garcia, Gilbert, Mills etc are going to be $4m min

That's $48m gone on just resigning offensive players.

Take off another $9m in rookie draft pool. That's $57m.

That leaves $17m to fix the defense...

That's another reason I think we should let Hump and AQ walk. We can't afford to be assigning that much to average players.

Mason Cole costs about 600k and is better than AQ now. Why pay Shipley when we need that cash elsewhere?

And $14m is just way to much for Hump.

 

[Solar7]

I read somewhere that Drake was 3rd in the league in yards after contact. DJ is SLOW to the hole. I’ve seen enough. I love Edmonds. Your problem is you think we simply draft a rookie and everything will be fine.... until he needs to play and misses a blitz pick-up, another problem that DJ has. You want to see this offense come to a grinding halt? Go forward with DJ and PRAY nothing happens to Edmonds. No running game would turn this o-line totally ineffective.

Every point you bring up leaves gaping holes elsewhere. How can you be so damn sure that Drake will turn into a bum?

My idea is to keep this offense as intact as we can. Take year two and make some serious upgrades on defense.

Your idea? Dump Drake cause he’ll be a bum. Dump humphries and draft a rookie who might not be there when we pick, sign Conklin who may never leave Tennessee. Replace 3/5ths of the offensive line and everything will be fine. Go with Edmonds who is complimentary back not a bell cow. Stick with DJ cause, we’ll why not. And simply draft a rookie rb to replace Drake. Did I miss something?

Nah, lots missing there. (Also, apologies, this is on my phone.)

Ideally:
- Don’t re-sign Drake. I would re-sign him if we could somehow get out of DJ’s contract, but it’s just too much to tie up into an RB. Unless of course, Drake comes crawling back to us with no offers and plays on the cheap. No Breida. Draft an RB in the third and accept we signed a bad deal with DJ and have to make it work. I don’t think Drake is a bum, just a never-was and never-will-be.

- Franchise Humphries, if we feel confident he will play for it, and draft an OT at 8, ideally Thomas or Wirfs. If he is really going to hold out upon being tagged, just pay him.

- Sign Conklin if available. Tender Murray as an RFA either way, hopefully as a backup. If Conklin is not available, try to re-sign Gilbert on the cheap. In that case, aim for a top tackle at 8.

- Tell Shipley we appreciate his hard work, and sign one of the top two centers.

- Spend the rest of FA dollars on defense. Add reasonably priced rotational DEs, an OLB and ILB. If we get Conklin, go hard after Isaiah Simmons or one of the top two WRs.

Hope I didn’t miss anything. Again, on phone.

 

[TheCardFan]

@BritCard

Welcome to the board! Really enjoying your posts.

Newbie buys. I will take a pint of dry cider and a tomahawk ribeye.

 

[AZman5103]

You have to consider the salary cap implications of all this too.

Hump is going to get $14m.
AQ I hear is being offered $5.

That's $19m of our cap space or 25% gone on average players.

Then you have,

Fitz $11m
Drake $6m
J.Murray $2m
Hundley $4m
Cooper $2m
Depth players to replace Garcia, Gilbert, Mills etc are going to be $4m min

That's $48m gone on just resigning offensive players.

Take off another $9m in rookie draft pool. That's $57m.

That leaves $17m to fix the defense...

That's another reason I think we should let Hump and AQ walk. We can't afford to be assigning that much to average players.

Mason Cole costs about 600k and is better than AQ now. Why pay Shipley when we need that cash elsewhere?

And $14m is just way to much for Hump.

I dont know if thats 100% accurate, but it sure paints a disappointing picture. We have been hearing for 2 years that this was the offseason we could spend money and upgrade talent.

I will be VERY disappointed if we end up spending 25% of our money on Humphries and Shipley. They just aren't that good.

I think as you said, Cole could do just as well, and a 2nd round pick at Center would be an upgrade.

At LT, Thomas would be an upgrade, but if we don't spend that 1st round pick on defense it's looking like we are not going to be able to upgrade much.

Do you let Hump, AQ, and Drake all walk...and spend your first 3 picks on LT, OC, and RB? You might end up with 3 superior players and an extra ~25 million to spend on the defense.

 

[TheCardFan]

When did NFL teams stop back-loading contracts?

 

[slanidrac16]

Nah, lots missing there. (Also, apologies, this is on my phone.)

Ideally:
- Don’t re-sign Drake. I would re-sign him if we could somehow get out of DJ’s contract, but it’s just too much to tie up into an RB. Unless of course, Drake comes crawling back to us with no offers and plays on the cheap. No Breida. Draft an RB in the third and accept we signed a bad deal with DJ and have to make it work. I don’t think Drake is a bum, just a never-was and never-will-be.

- Franchise Humphries, if we feel confident he will play for it, and draft an OT at 8, ideally Thomas or Wirfs. If he is really going to hold out upon being tagged, just pay him.

- Sign Conklin if available. Tender Murray as an RFA either way, hopefully as a backup. If Conklin is not available, try to re-sign Gilbert on the cheap. In that case, aim for a top tackle at 8.

- Tell Shipley we appreciate his hard work, and sign one of the top two centers.

- Spend the rest of FA dollars on defense. Add reasonably priced rotational DEs, an OLB and ILB. If we get Conklin, go hard after Isaiah Simmons or one of the top two WRs.

Hope I didn’t miss anything. Again, on phone.

So I have to giggle. In this post your scenario shows a possibility to have the same starting 5 offensive linemen. Probably Won’t get Conklin. Same two guards, rf Murray, sign Gilbert but only if he comes cheap and a draft pick that may not be there.

 

[Solar7]

So I have to giggle. In this post your scenario shows a possibility to have the same starting 5 offensive linemen. Probably Won’t get Conklin. Same two guards, rf Murray, sign Gilbert but only if he comes cheap and a draft pick that may not be there.

If players aren't there, they're not there. I'd strongly consider Bulaga alongside Conklin if he comes available. And like Chopper said, McGovern or Glasgow at center.

My scenario has the possibility of the same starting five, but it would be a disaster. LT is practically set as long as we don't end up in contract fights, but C is in a silly spot. It's probably set too, but if I were GM, I'd be moving on. RT desperately needs to improve somehow.

I'm not sure what you're looking for from me - I can't manufacture better players to be available, but I can identify strong tackle candidates in the draft. There's plenty of ifs, but this team should not rely on the same OL again.

 

[slanidrac16]

If players aren't there, they're not there. I'd strongly consider Bulaga alongside Conklin if he comes available. And like Chopper said, McGovern or Glasgow at center.

My scenario has the possibility of the same starting five, but it would be a disaster. LT is practically set as long as we don't end up in contract fights, but C is in a silly spot. It's probably set too, but if I were GM, I'd be moving on. RT desperately needs to improve somehow.

I'm not sure what you're looking for from me - I can't manufacture better players to be available, but I can identify strong tackle candidates in the draft. There's plenty of ifs, but this team should not rely on the same OL again.

Just bustin your footballs. Truth is there are numerous roads we can go down.

 

[WildBB]

We need an upgrade at RT. Murray improved there, but is he really the long term answer??
There are three very sure NFL starting T's in this draft. There are also two sure fire #1 WR's, possibly a couple more. We also have a somewhat injury prone likely LT & starting G. Something else to consider. Can Cole start there? We need to be more physical overall up front. Did you see what Tenn. just did and has to a physical Baltimore squad?!

 

[GatorAZ]

We need an upgrade at RT. Murray improved there, but is he really the long term answer??
There are three very sure NFL starting T's in this draft. There are also two sure fire #1 WR's, possibly a couple more. We also have a somewhat injury prone likely LT & starting G. Something else to consider. Can Cole start there? We need to be more physical overall up front. Did you see what Tenn. just did and has to a physical Baltimore squad?!

The young talent at OL/DL is far worse than any skill position. TRENCHES.

 

[don7031]

- Franchise Humphries, if we feel confident he will play for it, and draft an OT at 8, ideally Thomas or Wirfs. If he is really going to hold out upon being tagged, just pay him.

It has been overlooked in the debate of whether or not to pay Humphries elite money is that the Cardinals are probably going to have to tag him to prevent him from becoming a free agent. If he isn't under contract for 2020 by the draft, that does make taking a potential replacement for him in the draft a priority.

 

[BritCard]

@BritCard

Welcome to the board! Really enjoying your posts.

Newbie buys. I will take a pint of dry cider and a tomahawk ribeye.

Thanks mate.

I have been a heavy contributor over at ROTB but thought I'd come over here for a change of scenery.

ROTB is great for content and I applaud Seth and the staff there for their editorial work but they treat users like ungrateful children. You have to take thier opinion as gospel or be treated like a naughty boy for daring to have a different opinion.

The atmosphere over there is really becoming one of staff vs users. You will often see 2 or 3 staff / mods band together in comments against one reader.

So thought I'd try over here where its fans only.