Parallels to 2004 offseason

Folster

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Lots of people are griping about the Suns off-season pointing to poor asset management and underwhelming free agent signings.

Take a look at these transactions heading into the 2004 off-season when Colangelo was preparing to sell the team.

January 5, 2004
Traded Anfernee Hardaway, Stephon Marbury and Cezary Trybanski to the New York Knicks for Howard Eisley, Maciej Lampe, Antonio McDyess, Charlie Ward, Milos Vujanic, a 2004 1st round draft pick (Kirk Snyder was later selected) and a 2010 1st round draft pick (Gordon Hayward was later selected).
We dumped a washed-up Penny onto the hapless Knicks and used a very productive Marbury to do so. This turned out to be a fantastic trade and would've been better had we held on to the picks, but it was widely panned by fans and those around the league

Poor asset management:
February 19, 2004
Traded Tom Gugliotta, a 2004 1st round draft pick (Kirk Snyder was later selected), a 2005 2nd round draft pick (Alex Acker was later selected) and a 2010 1st round draft pick (Gordon Hayward was later selected) to the Utah Jazz for Keon Clark and Ben Handlogten.
We used 2 first round picks to dump Tom Gugliotta and got nothing in return.

Poor asset management:
June 24, 2004
Drafted Luol Deng in the 1st round (7th pick) of the 2004 NBA Draft.
Traded Luol Deng to the Chicago Bulls for Jackson Vroman and a 2005 1st round draft pick (Nate Robinson was later selected).
We all remember this one. Iguodala and Deng were both available. Yuck!

Underwhelming free agent signing:
July 14, 2004
Signed Steve Nash as a free agent.

We were reportedly in the market for Kobe or McGrady and possibly both. But we got Steve Nash. It was underwhelming to many and was criticized as an overpay. Rubio is no Nash, but to be fair Nash was not Nash when we signed him. He was the perfect fit next to Stoudamire, Marion, and JJ.

More underwhelming free agent signings:
July 29, 2004
Signed Quentin Richardson as a free agent.
August 20, 2004
Signed Steven Hunter as a free agent.
I believe Q was an RFA and we overpaid to get him, but he was integral to that team especially that first year. Hunter also provided serviceable back-up big minutes.

I'm not posting this to say the Suns will win 62 games next year like the 04-05 Suns, but to illustrate the combination of good and bad moves that allowed us to change our fortunes quickly.

Sometimes you have to take a step back and cut your losses on some assets in order to move forward.

All data pulled from https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2005_transactions.html.
 
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Mainstreet

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Signing Steve Nash made up for a lot of bad moves.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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Rubio obviously isn't the shooter that Nash was and probably not even the same level of passer either, but he is a good passer and I would not be shocked if he is dishing out around 10 per game this year. It is well within the realm of possibility that he is the catalyst of a big jump in the win total.

Another thing about that 04-05 Suns team was the jump that Stat made with the addition of a good passing PG and we could see a similar type of jump from Ayton with the addition of Rubio.
 

Phrazbit

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Trading the Deng pick was and still is a terrible move. The mishandling of draft assets killed us down the road.
 

iVAN

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Rubio obviously isn't the shooter that Nash was and probably not even the same level of passer either, but he is a good passer and I would not be shocked if he is dishing out around 10 per game this year. It is well within the realm of possibility that he is the catalyst of a big jump in the win total.

Another thing about that 04-05 Suns team was the jump that Stat made with the addition of a good passing PG and we could see a similar type of jump from Ayton with the addition of Rubio.

That's very debatable. The numbers thru first 8 season of their careers don't support your claim.
 

Chaplin

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Trading the Deng pick was and still is a terrible move. The mishandling of draft assets killed us down the road.
Double-edged sword. Getting rid of draft assets killed us, but when we finally had them, we whiffed on pretty much every pick.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I suppose Nash was “underwhelming” as compared to the Kobe/mcgrady thoughts but he was still a well-regarded player. And yeah I think I believed it to be an overpay.

Q-Rich, on the other hand, I believe was a surprise. I don’t recall many people seeing that coming and were happy about the acquisition.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Double-edged sword. Getting rid of draft assets killed us, but when we finally had them, we whiffed on pretty much every pick.
True. And if I recall correctly didn’t we need to move that pick to sign Q-rich?
 

ASUCHRIS

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Seriously?

From the JJ debacle, to sold draft picks, to the KT situation, every one of these decisions chipped away at a potential championship team.

That team was able to succeed in spite of stupid and ill advised moves!!!

Painting this offseason as anything other than a complete mismanagement of assets/FA is selling sand as water.

Steve Nash ain't walking through that door!
 
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Folster

Folster

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True. And if I recall correctly didn’t we need to move that pick to sign Q-rich?

That was the rationale given. Also remember we balked at extending JJ that summer after giving Nash and Q big contracts. Another bad move that came back to haunt us the next off-season.
 

Phrazbit

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Double-edged sword. Getting rid of draft assets killed us, but when we finally had them, we whiffed on pretty much every pick.

We shipped off almost every meaningful pick we had. Over the a 4 year stretch, starting in 2004, we had 6 first round picks, we kept only one... Alando Tucker, drafted 29th.

Once we started keeping our picks we took Lopez, Clark and Morris over the next 4 years (didn't have a pick one season). Clark was total whiff but, given our draft slots, Lopez and Morris were solid.
 

SunnyBaller

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Seriously?

From the JJ debacle, to sold draft picks, to the KT situation, every one of these decisions chipped away at a potential championship team.

That team was able to succeed in spite of stupid and ill advised moves!!!

Painting this offseason as anything other than a complete mismanagement of assets/FA is selling sand as water.

Steve Nash ain't walking through that door!
You haven't even seen how these moves work yet, the only mismanaged trade was probably Warren , we were never going to get anything for JJ and we don't know if Cam and Saric will be better than Culver , FA wise we didn't have a chance at any big names outside of Russell and he got a Max which was not what the sun's could have paid so they got veterans that could help the team , not flashy signings but probably decent ones
 

1Sun

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But we didn't know that at the time.

But unless you're expecting Rubio to become a HOF point guard out of the blue the way Nash did, there is absolutely no way you can expect anywhere near the same results.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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That's very debatable. The numbers thru first 8 season of their careers don't support your claim.
Maybe, but we have Nash's whole career to take into account and we know for a fact that when given the opportunity Nash showed to be one of the best passers of all time. Rubio has had the opportunity to lead an offense before where as the pre-Suns Nash was playing in an ISO heavy Dallas team with Dirk and Finley. We shall see if Rubio has those same kind of passing chops when surrounded by talented offensive players.
 

1Sun

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Seriously?

From the JJ debacle, to sold draft picks, to the KT situation, every one of these decisions chipped away at a potential championship team.

That team was able to succeed in spite of stupid and ill advised moves!!!

Painting this offseason as anything other than a complete mismanagement of assets/FA is selling sand as water.

Steve Nash ain't walking through that door!

Bingo.
 

iVAN

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Maybe, but we have Nash's whole career to take into account and we know for a fact that when given the opportunity Nash showed to be one of the best passers of all time. Rubio has had the opportunity to lead an offense before where as the pre-Suns Nash was playing in an ISO heavy Dallas team with Dirk and Finley. We shall see if Rubio has those same kind of passing chops when surrounded by talented offensive players.

Nash is the better passer, though he had the benefit of being in Suns offense. But they are not levels apart.
 

ASUCHRIS

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You haven't even seen how these moves work yet,

Oh boy, you're really leading with this?

the only mismanaged trade was probably Warren

You can say that, but the vast majority of NBA thought dumping JJ and including draft picks to do so was dumb. Trading 6 for 11/one year of Saric was an overpay, and does very little for us in the long term, other than have us reach terribly for a 23 year old role player.

we were never going to get anything for JJ

I love that you can assert this with such authority. We're talking about the #4 pick, who has had no consistency in terms of coaching/leadership, dumped before even giving the new staff a chance to rehab him. At the very worst, keep him around like Bender, and see if he improves. I love how people are so sure he's a failure and so desperate to get rid of him in spite of the fact he's still younger than our current first round gem!

The cherry on that turd sundae is acquiring Korver, who seems to fit our offseason blueprint to a tee, and immediately dumping him in lieu of trying to get assets later. (See Tyson Chandler)

and we don't know if Cam and Saric will be better than Culver

One year of a middling PF and a mid-late 20's unitasker for an unquestioned top 10 pick? I don't have my crystal ball out, but there was a reason that trade was panned.

FA wise we didn't have a chance at any big names outside of Russell and he got a Max which was not what the sun's could have paid

Wrong Wrong Wrong. Where do you get your info? The Suns could have easily created the space necessary to get Russell, and retain Oubre>

https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo...angelo-russell-and-kelly-oubre-jr/1602234001/


so they got veterans that could help the team , not flashy signings but probably decent ones

Decent? Define decent. What I see is a bad team that gave up the majority of their future assets to avoid another 20 win season. Where is the hope? Outside of Booker/Ayton, which young player on this team shows any star potential?

Paying guys like Rubio 17M per year to be less of an embarrassment makes sense in a vacuum, but when it forces you to dump a bunch of other assets for a player that isn't the long term answer, what's the point?

Is putting a bad/capped out/minimally talented team satisfying to you?
 

1Sun

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Oh boy, you're really leading with this?



You can say that, but the vast majority of NBA thought dumping JJ and including draft picks to do so was dumb. Trading 6 for 11/one year of Saric was an overpay, and does very little for us in the long term, other than have us reach terribly for a 23 year old role player.



I love that you can assert this with such authority. We're talking about the #4 pick, who has had no consistency in terms of coaching/leadership, dumped before even giving the new staff a chance to rehab him. At the very worst, keep him around like Bender, and see if he improves. I love how people are so sure he's a failure and so desperate to get rid of him in spite of the fact he's still younger than our current first round gem!

The cherry on that turd sundae is acquiring Korver, who seems to fit our offseason blueprint to a tee, and immediately dumping him in lieu of trying to get assets later. (See Tyson Chandler)



One year of a middling PF and a mid-late 20's unitasker for an unquestioned top 10 pick? I don't have my crystal ball out, but there was a reason that trade was panned.



Wrong Wrong Wrong. Where do you get your info? The Suns could have easily created the space necessary to get Russell, and retain Oubre>

https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo...angelo-russell-and-kelly-oubre-jr/1602234001/




Decent? Define decent. What I see is a bad team that gave up the majority of their future assets to avoid another 20 win season. Where is the hope? Outside of Booker/Ayton, which young player on this team shows any star potential?

Paying guys like Rubio 17M per year to be less of an embarrassment makes sense in a vacuum, but when it forces you to dump a bunch of other assets for a player that isn't the long term answer, what's the point?

Is putting a bad/capped out/minimally talented team satisfying to you?

This.
 

SunnyBaller

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Oh boy, you're really leading with this?



You can say that, but the vast majority of NBA thought dumping JJ and including draft picks to do so was dumb. Trading 6 for 11/one year of Saric was an overpay, and does very little for us in the long term, other than have us reach terribly for a 23 year old role player.



I love that you can assert this with such authority. We're talking about the #4 pick, who has had no consistency in terms of coaching/leadership, dumped before even giving the new staff a chance to rehab him. At the very worst, keep him around like Bender, and see if he improves. I love how people are so sure he's a failure and so desperate to get rid of him in spite of the fact he's still younger than our current first round gem!

The cherry on that turd sundae is acquiring Korver, who seems to fit our offseason blueprint to a tee, and immediately dumping him in lieu of trying to get assets later. (See Tyson Chandler)



One year of a middling PF and a mid-late 20's unitasker for an unquestioned top 10 pick? I don't have my crystal ball out, but there was a reason that trade was panned.



Wrong Wrong Wrong. Where do you get your info? The Suns could have easily created the space necessary to get Russell, and retain Oubre>

https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo...angelo-russell-and-kelly-oubre-jr/1602234001/




Decent? Define decent. What I see is a bad team that gave up the majority of their future assets to avoid another 20 win season. Where is the hope? Outside of Booker/Ayton, which young player on this team shows any star potential?

Paying guys like Rubio 17M per year to be less of an embarrassment makes sense in a vacuum, but when it forces you to dump a bunch of other assets for a player that isn't the long term answer, what's the point?

Is putting a bad/capped out/minimally talented team satisfying to you?
Wow I had no idea you were so knowledgeable about basketball , what front office do you work in? Most be getting paid alot since you know exactly how a player is going to turn out.

And ya they could have cleared space for Russel I didn't say they couldn't, from reports they didn't want to do that along with other reasons so they didn't. As I said they weren't going to get anyone else at or above his level

And an unquestioned top 10 in a horrible draft oh ya that's gonna be a sure fire all-star for sure

And I love how you can so confidently claim Cam will be nothing more than a role player and yet defend JJ who statistically was one of the worst players in the league his first two years, outside his off the court issues, but ok ya he might improve but Can no chance?,oh man that made me laugh

Is this 1suns second account or something ?
 

ASUCHRIS

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Wow I had no idea you were so knowledgeable about basketball , what front office do you work in? Most be getting paid alot since you know exactly how a player is going to turn out.

You started with your moronic "haven't seen how these moves will turn out" post, and aren't disappointing with your follow up.

And ya they could have cleared space for Russel I didn't say they couldn't

Wow, now you're straight up lying. It's literally what you said.

FA wise we didn't have a chance at any big names outside of Russell and he got a Max which was not what the sun's could have paid

And an unquestioned top 10 in a horrible draft oh ya that's gonna be a sure fire all-star for sure

Let's continue down the list of logical fallacies - straw man anyone? Crazy idea here - why not take the best player, or if you're infatuated for some reason for a late 20's pick, then why not trade down? Basic understanding of asset management here.

And I love how you can so confidently claim Cam will be nothing more than a role player

Please show me a draft profile or provide an argument that he's anything but a role player. He's 23! He's been in college basketball long enough to actually show what he is - a knock down 3 point shooter. He can't defend the 2/3/4, he doesn't create, and was projected late first round because he IS a 23 year old role player, and doesn't have the requisite athleticism to make a leap. This isn't my opinion - it's the consensus among the basketball world.




and yet defend JJ who statistically was one of the worst players in the league his first two years, outside his off the court issues, but ok ya he might improve but Can no chance?,oh man that made me laugh

If you can't see the difference in potential from a 23 year old college role player and a 22 year old #4 overall pick lauded for his athleticism, I don't know what to tell you.

Is this 1suns second account or something ?

And complete your masterpiece with an ad hominem...well done! Still waiting for something substantive - I'm not holding my breath.
 

1Sun

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You started with your moronic "haven't seen how these moves will turn out" post, and aren't disappointing with your follow up.



Wow, now you're straight up lying. It's literally what you said.





Let's continue down the list of logical fallacies - straw man anyone? Crazy idea here - why not take the best player, or if you're infatuated for some reason for a late 20's pick, then why not trade down? Basic understanding of asset management here.



Please show me a draft profile or provide an argument that he's anything but a role player. He's 23! He's been in college basketball long enough to actually show what he is - a knock down 3 point shooter. He can't defend the 2/3/4, he doesn't create, and was projected late first round because he IS a 23 year old role player, and doesn't have the requisite athleticism to make a leap. This isn't my opinion - it's the consensus among the basketball world.






If you can't see the difference in potential from a 23 year old college role player and a 22 year old #4 overall pick lauded for his athleticism, I don't know what to tell you.



And complete your masterpiece with an ad hominem...well done! Still waiting for something substantive - I'm not holding my breath.

Don't get your hopes up. The retort seems to be limited to misrepresentation, name calling or putting posters on ignore.
 

SunnyBaller

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You started with your moronic "haven't seen how these moves will turn out" post, and aren't disappointing with your follow up.



Wow, now you're straight up lying. It's literally what you said.





Let's continue down the list of logical fallacies - straw man anyone? Crazy idea here - why not take the best player, or if you're infatuated for some reason for a late 20's pick, then why not trade down? Basic understanding of asset management here.



Please show me a draft profile or provide an argument that he's anything but a role player. He's 23! He's been in college basketball long enough to actually show what he is - a knock down 3 point shooter. He can't defend the 2/3/4, he doesn't create, and was projected late first round because he IS a 23 year old role player, and doesn't have the requisite athleticism to make a leap. This isn't my opinion - it's the consensus among the basketball world.






If you can't see the difference in potential from a 23 year old college role player and a 22 year old #4 overall pick lauded for his athleticism, I don't know what to tell you.



And complete your masterpiece with an ad hominem...well done! Still waiting for something substantive - I'm not holding my breath.
Well I did contradict myself saying they could get Russel then salary wise didn't realize I put couldn't instead of wouldn't, I'm busy so im not debating every stupid point in this argument anymore, only one I'm going to mention is the JJ one. Saying JJ has more potential than Cam, who was their leading scorer not really a role player, in a basketball standpoint is obvious , JJ mostly devalues himself with his MANY off the court issues , this isn't the NFL, the cowboys aren't knocking on our door to get this Trainwreck of a kid, they gave up almost nothing to get rid of him, most consider that a win
 

SunnyBaller

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Don't get your hopes up. The retort seems to be limited to misrepresentation, name calling or putting posters on ignore.
Ya have never done either , but considering you're ignored by half the board I guess that's fair statement...sort of
 

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