Old vs New NFL

[football karma]

Interesting to see how the reactions split overall to the Cardinals offseason moves.

there are traditional NFL types and the long time media outlets: ESPN, SI, etc. -- who generally find the Kingsbury hire crazy if not shocking, rank Kyler Murray as a prospect mid to low first round, and, consider the ditch Rosen to get Murray move as perplexing.

vs.

New media types who are much more open minded on all these things: PFF and the Ringer. The Ringer was openly pining for a Murray/ Kingsbury reunion in January.

i see this similar thinking in business -- i used to work in an very old economy and now work in tech.

Old economy was about measuring risk ahead of time, gather as much info as possible, and then, commit to a course of action and see it through.

vs

go fast, take chances, and if things look like they arent working, "fail fast" and correct course.

 

[BW52]

So using your anolgy then if Murray fails to produce quick results then its time to change Coaches and QB again next year?

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Old economy was about measuring risk ahead of time, gather as much info as possible, and then, commit to a course of action and see it through.

vs

go fast, take chances, and if things look like they arent working, "fail fast" and correct course.

I 100%, and will state again 100% agree with this.


I am fine with it in concerns to football,



But, this is what happens when you do things the "new way" in engineering and manufacturing. It is scary.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/industr...-admit-flaw-in-max-design-after-fatal-crashes

That is how you get the Boeing 737 max situation.

It is all cool, till someone you care about is on the plane.

Or as Chuck Palahniuk put it:

Narrator:
A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

Business woman on plane:
Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?

Narrator:
You wouldn't believe.

Business woman on plane:
Which car company do you work for?

Narrator:
A major one.

 

[NJCardFan]

The Kingsbury hiring was a shock because he was a mediocre college coach at least record wise but I understand the Cards thinking with the QB's he's had under his tutelage.


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[dscher]

It's a transition.. they sometimes get a little messy. But inevitable nonetheless. imo

 

[Delmar M Lewis]

So using your anolgy then if Murray fails to produce quick results then its time to change Coaches and QB again next year?

I am doing exactly that used to be a coach / player got a few years to prove themselves but in today's world its one and done of ya dont produce we just saw it play out in person after all Murray can go straight to baseball and most likely will

 

[slanidrac16]

Looking back now the cards brass got together and made the decision to blow this thing up very early on. Perhaps even before the season ended.

Maybe it was a blessing that last season was so bad. It had to be excruciating and embarrassing for Bidwill and Keim to sit thru last year.

New wave. Changing horizon. The new world of analytics. We are there.

 

[NJCardFan]

I am doing exactly that used to be a coach / player got a few years to prove themselves but in today's world its one and done of ya dont produce we just saw it play out in person after all Murray can go straight to baseball and most likely will

His baseball numbers last year were decent but not head turning. For how fast he's supposed to be and to only have 10 stolen bases isn't that great and he was caught 4 times. His OPS is really good though. He strikes out too much for my tastes though.

 

[JeffGollin]

The Kingsbury hiring was a shock because he was a mediocre college coach at least record wise but I understand the Cards thinking with the QB's he's had under his tutelage.


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I'd rather flip things around and take a long hard look at the brief Wilks era.

The Wilks hiring was old school (low risk & by the numbers). Yet for some unexplained reason, "the lights all went out." (The offense stopped working. The defense slowed to a near halt. The team looked like a cardboard cutout of a living, active team.

We had 3 options: (1) pretend nothing was wrong and keep Wilks. (2) Replace Wilks with another old school HC. (3) Take a giant leap of faith right over the edge of the proverbial cliff and go new school with Kingsbury.

We chose Door #3.

Right decision? The only "right decision" will be if we choose the right guy to lead us - this has less to do with old school vs. new school and more with the coaching skills of the guy we hired.

Unlike Wilks (whose deficiencies became clearly evident in record time) it will probably take a year or two to determine whether Kingsbury was the right way to go.

It should be a fun time.

 

[NJCardFan]

I'd rather flip things around and take a long hard look at the brief Wilks era.

The Wilks hiring was old school (low risk & by the numbers). Yet for some unexplained reason, "the lights all went out." (The offense stopped working. The defense slowed to a near halt. The team looked like a cardboard cutout of a living, active team.

We had 3 options: (1) pretend nothing was wrong and keep Wilks. (2) Replace Wilks with another old school HC. (3) Take a giant leap of faith right over the edge of the proverbial cliff and go new school with Kingsbury.

We chose Door #3.

Right decision? The only "right decision" will be if we chose the right guy to lead us - this has less to do with old school vs. new school and more with the coaching skills of the guy we hired.

Unlike Wilks (whose deficiencies became clearly evident in record time) it eill probably take a year or two to determine whether Kingsbury was the right way to go.

It should be a fun time.

Wilks wasn't an old school choice but a PC choice, nothing more. I know that's going to rub people the wrong way but Bidwill wanted to hire a black coach to prove how progressive we were(having a black GM, coach, and even a female coach at one time) instead of trying to get a viable candidate to put this franchise back together, black or white. I get that. But as much in disarray this team was after Arians left, hiring a first time HC and one with no real coordinator time wasn't the time to do it. Wilks may yet prove he is head coaching material but he wasn't going to succeed in this clusterflop. Hell, Vince Lombardi would have hung up had he tried to coach last season. They also didn't put Wilks in any position to succeed. They threw a bunch of money at an oft injured QB who NEVER lived up to his potential, found every oft injured offensive lineman they could find, and let whatever WR talent we had walk. Changing our defensive scheme didn't help either. Part of me believes that Wilks was given a raw deal but it was obvious that he wasn't ready to be a head coach. Hopefully scuttling last season will lead to greatness. We'll soon see.

 

[Delmar M Lewis]

His baseball numbers last year were decent but not head turning. For how fast he's supposed to be and to only have 10 stolen bases isn't that great and he was caught 4 times. His OPS is really good though. He strikes out too much for my tastes though.

Unfortunately the strike out ratios have changed too the stolen base is a lost cause it's about the long ball and base hits and other stats that I cant understand way to many for my big time Stl. Cardinal fan brain to understand

 

[Delmar M Lewis]

Wilks wasn't an old school choice but a PC choice, nothing more. I know that's going to rub people the wrong way but Bidwill wanted to hire a black coach to prove how progressive we were(having a black GM, coach, and even a female coach at one time) instead of trying to get a viable candidate to put this franchise back together, black or white. I get that. But as much in disarray this team was after Arians left, hiring a first time HC and one with no real coordinator time wasn't the time to do it. Wilks may yet prove he is head coaching material but he wasn't going to succeed in this clusterflop. Hell, Vince Lombardi would have hung up had he tried to coach last season. They also didn't put Wilks in any position to succeed. They threw a bunch of money at an oft injured QB who NEVER lived up to his potential, found every oft injured offensive lineman they could find, and let whatever WR talent we had walk. Changing our defensive scheme didn't help either. Part of me believes that Wilks was given a raw deal but it was obvious that he wasn't ready to be a head coach. Hopefully scuttling last season will lead to greatness. We'll soon see.

On that post I am in total agreement the sad part is we have hitched our wagon and team to more or less the same wagon ie. College coach with a losing record who had a cup of tea as a NFL player and "generational " Qb with 1 year of college experience all be it a incredible 1 year Sorry but this team deserves it's #31 ranking till proven wrong

 

[Delmar M Lewis]

I'd rather flip things around and take a long hard look at the brief Wilks era.

The Wilks hiring was old school (low risk & by the numbers). Yet for some unexplained reason, "the lights all went out." (The offense stopped working. The defense slowed to a near halt. The team looked like a cardboard cutout of a living, active team.

We had 3 options: (1) pretend nothing was wrong and keep Wilks. (2) Replace Wilks with another old school HC. (3) Take a giant leap of faith right over the edge of the proverbial cliff and go new school with Kingsbury.

We chose Door #3.

Right decision? The only "right decision" will be if we chose the right guy to lead us - this has less to do with old school vs. new school and more with the coaching skills of the guy we hired.

Unlike Wilks (whose deficiencies became clearly evident in record time) it eill probably take a year or two to determine whether Kingsbury was the right way to go.

It should be a fun time.

No disagreement here it could be noted the offense and defense coordinator weren't very good either in fact the only area of improvement at all was special teams which didnt have no where to go but up anyway

 

[nidan]

I 100%, and will state again 100% agree with this.


I am fine with it in concerns to football,



But, this is what happens when you do things the "new way" in engineering and manufacturing. It is scary.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/industr...-admit-flaw-in-max-design-after-fatal-crashes

That is how you get the Boeing 737 max situation.

It is all cool, till someone you care about is on the plane.

Or as Chuck Palahniuk put it:

Narrator:
A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

Business woman on plane:
Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?

Narrator:
You wouldn't believe.

Business woman on plane:
Which car company do you work for?

Narrator:
A major one.

That is NOT new, major companies have been doing that for a very long time

 

[THESMEL]

A front of the curve paradigm shift is Keim and Michael Bidwills goal - I respect it - it’s like keims last gasp - and historic. THE RUN GAME is still the engine of Kingsbury air raid offense. DJ can rule it! BA should be proud of this riskit biscuit- if Murray goes down from marquee defensive pass rushes in our division - it’s a fail - if Rosen can’t run it - who the hell else can?

I love me some Dan Fouts and the success he willed! Falcons glanville red gun offense including Whisenhunt was a fail - what were shooting for is is Air coryells Dynamics. Nfl was moving toward it then in the 70s - defenses are already adjusted to pro passing rules in players and schemes - will see how forward pushing this cardinal effort will achieve.

If Murray stays upright this may go 9nly as far as DAVID JOHNSON can take it!

CARDINAL UP AND TAKE IT LIKE A FAN!



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Coryell

In American football, Air Coryell is the offensive scheme and philosophy developed by former San Diego Chargers coach Don Coryell. The offensive philosophy has been also called the "Coryell offense" or the "vertical offense".

With Dan Fouts as quarterback, the San Diego Chargers' offense was among the greatest passing offenses in National Football League history. The Chargers led the league in passing yards an NFL record six consecutive years from 1978 to 1983[1] and again in 1985. They also led the league in total yards in offense 1978–83 and 1985. Dan Fouts, Charlie Joiner, and Kellen Winslow would all be inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame from those Charger teams.



Contents


Pre-Coryell NFLEdit
The pro set was the default NFL scheme prior to Don Coryell.[2] It was generally a running offense that used play action fakes to set up deep passing attempts when defenses stacked up vs the running game. On pass plays, it provided one or even two backs to help protect the quarterback.

The pro set features a TE, 2 WRs, and a Halfback and fullback, often split behind the QB. While QBs can take snaps from under center or from the shotgun position, QBs generally take snaps from under center in the pro set to allow for more effective use of the play action pass. Offenses tended to be ball-control, grind-it-out style offenses.[3] In 1978, the contact from defenders on receivers was minimized with the passing of the Mel Blount Rule.[4]

 

[Dr. Jones]

Ayton vs. Doncic. The NFL is changing and we are on the forefront of that evolution.

I'm glad that Keim & co. made the right choice.

 

[BW52]

Skeptical about the whole deal.KM/KKs offense...…...

 

[NJCardFan]

No disagreement here it could be noted the offense and defense coordinator weren't very good either in fact the only area of improvement at all was special teams which didnt have no where to go but up anyway

Ironically enough, neither does our offense.

 

[BW52]

And people have been trying to re-invent the wheel for how long?
Looking for a better mousetrap for how long?
Its really a simple game...you block the guy,you tackle the guy,you move the ball down the field,you stop the other from moving the ball down the field.
there isn`t a offense around that hasn`t been seen or tried at some point in the NFl.Anything can be schemed against.No offense is foolproof.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

That is NOT new, major companies have been doing that for a very long time

Just getting worse, trust me on that.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Wilks wasn't an old school choice but a PC choice, nothing more. I know that's going to rub people the wrong way but Bidwill wanted to hire a black coach to prove how progressive we were(having a black GM, coach, and even a female coach at one time) instead of trying to get a viable candidate to put this franchise back together, black or white. I get that. But as much in disarray this team was after Arians left, hiring a first time HC and one with no real coordinator time wasn't the time to do it. Wilks may yet prove he is head coaching material but he wasn't going to succeed in this clusterflop. Hell, Vince Lombardi would have hung up had he tried to coach last season. They also didn't put Wilks in any position to succeed. They threw a bunch of money at an oft injured QB who NEVER lived up to his potential, found every oft injured offensive lineman they could find, and let whatever WR talent we had walk. Changing our defensive scheme didn't help either. Part of me believes that Wilks was given a raw deal but it was obvious that he wasn't ready to be a head coach. Hopefully scuttling last season will lead to greatness. We'll soon see.

So Michael made a coach hiring based on racial public relations... what a load of nonsense unless he kept him after his craptastic coaching

 

[DeAnna]

So Michael made a coach hiring based on racial public relations... what a load of nonsense unless he kept him after his craptastic coaching

Yeah, that was baffling NJCardFan. The Cardinals were the first team to hire a black female in the front office; they've had other black head coaches, a black GM, etc.

That was strictly a reactional, old school hire - play defense and run the ball. Complete opposite of BA and now they've come full circle. Time will only tell if this trend becomes commonplace. I watched a youtube clip about the "air raid offense' which basically said these concepts have been used in the NFL for over 20 yrs, so nothing new. The so called "mesh" play is basically just a shallow crossing route.

 

[JeffGollin]

Wilks wasn't an old school choice but a PC choice, nothing more. I know that's going to rub people the wrong way but Bidwill wanted to hire a black coach to prove how progressive we were(having a black GM, coach, and even a female coach at one time) instead of trying to get a viable candidate to put this franchise back together, black or white. I get that. But as much in disarray this team was after Arians left, hiring a first time HC and one with no real coordinator time wasn't the time to do it. Wilks may yet prove he is head coaching material but he wasn't going to succeed in this clusterflop. Hell, Vince Lombardi would have hung up had he tried to coach last season. They also didn't put Wilks in any position to succeed. They threw a bunch of money at an oft injured QB who NEVER lived up to his potential, found every oft injured offensive lineman they could find, and let whatever WR talent we had walk. Changing our defensive scheme didn't help either. Part of me believes that Wilks was given a raw deal but it was obvious that he wasn't ready to be a head coach. Hopefully scuttling last season will lead to greatness. We'll soon see.

I have always championed ethnic diversity and no one rooted harder for Dennis Green and Coach Wilks than me. But I don't think Wilks was a PC option (we've hired white and minority coaches interchangeably throughout the years and our attitude to our HC's has been pretty much color-blind).

The release of Wilks was an example of an equal opportunity firing -made necessary because the team flat out didn't respond (i.e. Steve W would floor the gas pedal and the engine simply wouldn't rev).

Rather than point fingers at things like poor budget management or lousy personnel policy, I feel the responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of Coach Wilks (because it's the HC's job to motivate the players and steer the right strategic course). More than any Cardinal team I can ever remember, the Cardinal players were "flatter" than flat and the team's offensive and defensive strategies clueless toward delivering necessary answers. Usually when things aren't working, you can zero in on a handful of changes needing to be made, but the Cardinals under Wilks weren't responsive.

 

[football karma]

That is how you get the Boeing 737 max situation.

in fairness, the "go fast and break things" approach works great for places like Netflix, where the down side is you dont get your free streaming for an hour

not so much on aircraft flight controls, medical systems, etc

business has the benefit of faster change cycles ( it generally doesnt have to wait for the offseason) --

but to answer a question: i think this experiment has to show promise in the next two cycles -- two seasons -- or yes, you do start over - this time with a new architect

 

[jf-08]

And people have been trying to re-invent the wheel for how long?
Looking for a better mousetrap for how long?
Its really a simple game...you block the guy,you tackle the guy,you move the ball down the field,you stop the other from moving the ball down the field.
there isn`t a offense around that hasn`t been seen or tried at some point in the NFl.Anything can be schemed against.No offense is foolproof.

You are correct, but CKK has shown to take advantage of his offense players strengths and create mismatches with those strengths - whether it be a TE who can't be covered, a good RB, a physically gifted QB, etc,....

So hopefully with the tools that he has now, his scheme will be to create mismatches with the personnel, not fit the personnel into his system. Thank freaking gawd.