Deandre Ayton and Rookie expectations

Yuma

Suns are my Kryptonite!
Joined
Jan 3, 2003
Posts
20,163
Reaction score
9,606
Location
Laveen, AZ
I've been watching Ayton. And I have been reading posts about Ayton. There seems to be a split of what people want him to be versus what he is.

In college I saw a guy with great footwork, spin moves, and beating guys to the hoop for lay ins, hook shots, or low post jumpers. Now with the Suns the same guy. Win with Fred Astaire moves, like a Hakeem Olajawon.

However, I read frustrated posts wanting a banger, like Shaq, or a rim rocker like Amare Stoudemire.

This guy has never shown those tendencies ever!

I never once in college saw him back some guy down and bull over him like Shaq. Or dominatingly rim blast like Stoudemire. Yet every game people are like, when will he start doing these things?

Really? Did you watch him in college? what ever made you think he was a Shaq or Stoudemire?

This guy has a soft shot, and tries to manuever smartly to the rim.

Not to say someday he won't learn the power game.

Give a guy with Fred Astaire moves time to learn to break dance.
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
88,109
Reaction score
60,421
I've been watching Ayton. And I have been reading posts about Ayton. There seems to be a split of what people want him to be versus what he is.

In college I saw a guy with great footwork, spin moves, and beating guys to the hoop for lay ins, hook shots, or low post jumpers. Now with the Suns the same guy. Win with Fred Astaire moves, like a Hakeem Olajawon.

However, I read frustrated posts wanting a banger, like Shaq, or a rim rocker like Amare Stoudemire.

This guy has never shown those tendencies ever!

I never once in college saw him back some guy down and bull over him like Shaq. Or dominatingly rim blast like Stoudemire. Yet every game people are like, when will he start doing these things?

Really? Did you watch him in college? what ever made you think he was a Shaq or Stoudemire?

This guy has a soft shot, and tries to manuever smartly to the rim.

Not to say someday he won't learn the power game.

Give a guy with Fred Astaire moves time to learn to break dance.

Hakeem Olajuwon came out of the womb playing defense... despite the fact that he didn't start playing basketball until he was a teenager. Defense is about desire. The criticisms overwhelmingly come on that end where we see next to none of it.
 
OP
OP
Yuma

Yuma

Suns are my Kryptonite!
Joined
Jan 3, 2003
Posts
20,163
Reaction score
9,606
Location
Laveen, AZ
Hakeem Olajuwon came out of the womb playing defense... despite the fact that he didn't start playing basketball until he was a teenager. Defense is about desire. The criticisms overwhelmingly come on that end where we see next to none of it.
While I agree with your assesment of Olajawon and his defense as a rookie, what in college led anyone to believe Ayton was a 2 or 3 block a game lock down defender? The games I watched he guarded out to the three point line and was adept at switching on defense. The low block stuff was done by the Center on Ayton's team. Yeah, Ayton played PF at Arizona. So, again, the expectations of our fans versus the player we drafted are two different things.
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
88,109
Reaction score
60,421
While I agree with your assesment of Olajawon and his defense as a rookie, what in college led anyone to believe Ayton was a 2 or 3 block a game lock down defender? The games I watched he guarded out to the three point line and was adept at switching on defense. The low block stuff was done by the Center on Ayton's team. Yeah, Ayton played PF at Arizona. So, again, the expectations of our fans versus the player we drafted are two different things.

dude... you gotta stop putting words in people's mouths. I'm not talking about expecting Hakeem D out of the gate. I'm talking BASIC EFFORT which we are seeing almost none of from Ayton to defend the basket.

People made A LOT of excuses for that when he was on the Cats because he played "PF" and said once he was a C, you'd see that. There's almost none of it. A massive lack of defensive intensity, much less knowing how and when to help.

And sure... he's a rookie so he'll learn those things, but I've been stunned that he's had to learn seemingly everything at that end of the court, including even wanting to make an impact.
 
OP
OP
Yuma

Yuma

Suns are my Kryptonite!
Joined
Jan 3, 2003
Posts
20,163
Reaction score
9,606
Location
Laveen, AZ
dude... you gotta stop putting words in people's mouths. I'm not talking about expecting Hakeem D out of the gate. I'm talking BASIC EFFORT which we are seeing almost none of from Ayton to defend the basket.

People made A LOT of excuses for that when he was on the Cats because he played "PF" and said once he was a C, you'd see that. There's almost none of it. A massive lack of defensive intensity, much less knowing how and when to help.

And sure... he's a rookie so he'll learn those things, but I've been stunned that he's had to learn seemingly everything at that end of the court, including even wanting to make an impact.
I am not. There's a whole thread about his blocks or lack thereof. It's been a thing on this message board. Seriously.

I see a style thing versus a lack of effort thing. The Suns let him go all the way out to the three point line on switches, instead of staying on the low post like most centers. Sure he alters some three point shots. But then he's not there for rebounds or blocked shots on guys who get offensive rebounds. I have been watching him on plays even when he's not involved, and he plays a ton on the perimeter, like a PF. So you and I are approaching the conclusion from seperate ways, or views. He helps a lot on guys driving and then gets burned when they pass to the centers like Adams he has left to play help defense. I see he doesn't stay home enough on some centers like that. He tries too much. His effort is not appropriate for a Center, More like a PF. He really needs a Center to be brought in to teach him the center position in the NBA.
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
88,109
Reaction score
60,421
I am not. There's a whole thread about his blocks or lack thereof. It's been a thing on this message board. Seriously.

I see a style thing versus a lack of effort thing. The Suns let him go all the way out to the three point line on switches, instead of staying on the low post like most centers. Sure he alters some three point shots. But then he's not there for rebounds or blocked shots on guys who get offensive rebounds. I have been watching him on plays even when he's not involved, and he plays a ton on the perimeter, like a PF. So you and I are approaching the conclusion from seperate ways, or views. He helps a lot on guys driving and then gets burned when they pass to the centers like Adams he has left to play help defense. I see he doesn't stay home enough on some centers like that. He tries too much. His effort is not appropriate for a Center, More like a PF. He really needs a Center to be brought in to teach him the center position in the NBA.

maybe. I'm just really surprised by the seeming lack of instincts a big guy like that has.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
35,866
Reaction score
14,554
maybe. I'm just really surprised by the seeming lack of instincts a big guy like that has.

There was a time during the season where I just wanted no part of Ayton with our pick. I changed my mind because despite his lack of awareness, he still dominated in his own way.
 
OP
OP
Yuma

Yuma

Suns are my Kryptonite!
Joined
Jan 3, 2003
Posts
20,163
Reaction score
9,606
Location
Laveen, AZ
There was a time during the season where I just wanted no part of Ayton with our pick. I changed my mind because despite his lack of awareness, he still dominated in his own way.
I know. He's not playing like a center. But at the end of the day he has double doubles, on a team where guys are struggling to get points or rebounds. Arguably, he doesn't know his position or how to play in the NBA, and he still is contributing more than 2/3's of the team. That's why I believe his upside is so huge. When he finally discovers how to play, what in the hell will his stats be then?
 
OP
OP
Yuma

Yuma

Suns are my Kryptonite!
Joined
Jan 3, 2003
Posts
20,163
Reaction score
9,606
Location
Laveen, AZ
Suns center Deandre Ayton named finalist for Rookie of the Year

Phoenix Suns center Deandre Ayton was named a finalist for the NBA’s 2018-19 Rookie of the Year Friday, the NBA announced.

Ayton, the No. 1 overall pick in the 2018 NBA Draft, was the only rookie to average a double-double. Ayton’s 10.3 rebounds per game was the top mark among rookies and his 16.3 points per game ranked fourth behind Luka Doncic, Trae Young and Collin Sexton.

The 20-year-old’s rookie season was the most efficient historically given his production levels. Ayton is one of 35 rookies to average at least 16 points and 10 rebounds a game and his 60.8 TS% is the best of them all. Ayton is the the third rookie this decade to average a double-double, joining Blake Griffin and Karl-Anthony Towns.
 

Superbone

Phoenix native; Lifelong Suns Fan
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Posts
5,885
Reaction score
2,843
Location
San Diego, CA
Shaq tonight on TNT:

“Deandre Ayton had a OK season but you know he was out a lot with injuries.”
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
112,537
Reaction score
51,772
Shaq tonight on TNT:

“Deandre Ayton had a OK season but you know he was out a lot with injuries.”

Doncic played in 72 games while Ayton played in 71.

Trae Young played in 81 games.
 

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
15,976
Reaction score
10,863
Location
Tempe, AZ
This essentially guarantees his spot on the All-Rookie 1st team so I guess it's good. I hope Bridges makes the 2nd team. I know Ayton isn't winning this and that's ok. He can shoot for "Most Improved" next year.
 

Superbone

Phoenix native; Lifelong Suns Fan
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Posts
5,885
Reaction score
2,843
Location
San Diego, CA
Doncic played in 72 games while Ayton played in 71.

Trae Young played in 81 games.
Don’t shoot the messenger. :) I agree that he wasn’t injured “a lot”. Also, he played better than “OK”. He did some things very few have done before and one thing nobody has done before.
 

BC867

Long time Phoenician!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
17,827
Reaction score
1,709
Location
NE Phoenix
I think, to be unbiased, that the eye test showed that Ayton's influence on wins
didn't match his impressive rookie stats. And, as a Suns fan, I agree.

But the fault wasn't his. It was on a fired Coach who didn't use him properly on
offense. And revolving General Managers who didn't provide a solid Point Guard
to feed him or Power Forward to take pressure off him in the post.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
59,911
Reaction score
51,244
Location
SoCal
I think, to be unbiased, that the eye test showed that Ayton's influence on wins
didn't match his impressive rookie stats. And, as a Suns fan, I agree.

But the fault wasn't his. It was on a fired Coach who didn't use him properly on
offense. And revolving General Managers who didn't provide a solid Point Guard
to feed him or Power Forward to take pressure off him in the post.
Lots of culpable actors in this play, but let’s not alleviate Ayton of his share of the blame. He was part of it all. I hope we see leaps and bounds in his growth this offseason.
 
OP
OP
Yuma

Yuma

Suns are my Kryptonite!
Joined
Jan 3, 2003
Posts
20,163
Reaction score
9,606
Location
Laveen, AZ
Ayton's style of defense is to rotate to whoever has the ball. If that guys is behind the three point line, he is going to close out on that guy. I think that just leaves the paint open for offensive rebounds, and missed shot block opportunities. Until he sticks in the paint, and defends the paint like most highly regarded NBA defensive centers, we will always be light on defense in the paint. Partly it's up to a coach to change a guys tendencies for the betterment of the team. Ayton is just playing like he did in college defensively. No one on the Suns seemed to be able to change that, or they wanted him to play that way.
 

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
15,976
Reaction score
10,863
Location
Tempe, AZ
I think, to be unbiased, that the eye test showed that Ayton's influence on wins
didn't match his impressive rookie stats. And, as a Suns fan, I agree.

But the fault wasn't his. It was on a fired Coach who didn't use him properly on
offense. And revolving General Managers who didn't provide a solid Point Guard
to feed him or Power Forward to take pressure off him in the post.

That's not unbiased, that is applying your usual bias by putting blame on others while absolving any and all blame directed towards Ayton himself. Claiming Ayton needed others to get him more involved is highlighting why he doesn't deserve an award for his play because he didn't do enough to earn it.

What makes Ayton special if it takes changing 50% of the players on the court with him, and getting a new coach for him, to get him to impact the game more? Why then would it be Ayton impacting the game more and not those 2 other players and coach?
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
112,537
Reaction score
51,772
Don’t shoot the messenger. :) I agree that he wasn’t injured “a lot”. Also, he played better than “OK”. He did some things very few have done before and one thing nobody has done before.

Oh, I was agreeing with you.

I think Shaq was off base saying Ayton was injured a lot. That's why I included the breakdown on games played for the three primary rookie of the year candidates.
 

BC867

Long time Phoenician!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
17,827
Reaction score
1,709
Location
NE Phoenix
Ayton's style of defense is to rotate to whoever has the ball. If that guys is behind the three point line, he is going to close out on that guy. I think that just leaves the paint open for offensive rebounds, and missed shot block opportunities. Until he sticks in the paint, and defends the paint like most highly regarded NBA defensive centers, we will always be light on defense in the paint. Partly it's up to a coach to change a guys tendencies for the betterment of the team. Ayton is just playing like he did in college defensively. No one on the Suns seemed to be able to change that, or they wanted him to play that way.
Ayton played his one year at UofA at Power Forward. He was not the Center.

It takes a talented big-man coach to teach him to play Center without any
history of it beyond High School. And the Suns (evidently) did not have that
Assistant Coach.

Blaming Ayton (and Booker and all of the Small Forwards covering Power
Forward) is unfair to the players.

Hopefully, that will change this coming season with Sarver taking steps
back from his micro-managing and his hire of Monty. And hopefully, with
his turning the team over to Jones. We're pulling for him, even though
he didn't earn the promotion.
 

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
534,818
Posts
5,246,622
Members
6,273
Latest member
sarahmoose
Top