So how bad are we honestly?

Sam Wise

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Post season thoughts, well not surprised by much of what has happened and no plans to rehash the whole Wis/Warner who cares about the superbowl 5 years ago anyhow. But in fairness when will we be relevant again?

I haven't felt this bad about the Cardinals in years and really there is no light at the end of the tunnel. We are in a division with two young power house teams, and one up and comer. Two very, very good head coaches, and despite Carrol being a jerk he ain't too shabby. When I saw what jobs were availible for coaches I honestly thought about where would I coach based on talent and division. I will not rank them, but the Cardinals were the bottom of the list. Offensively we have Larry, and don't kidd yourself about the rest. Defensively we have tallent, but a DC can destroy that in a heartbeat(enter Todd Bowles). I expect us to be drafting in the top 10 for the next 4 years, our recently fired regime of clowns have ensured we are in trouble for years.
 

MadCardDisease

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We are a mess IMO.

On defense we have holes at ILB, SS and depth issues at NT and OLB.

On offense we are much worse. We currently major issues with starters at QB, RB and all along the OL.

To top it off we are no longer playing in the NFC Worst. SF and Seattle are playoff caliber teams and the Rams are making good moves as well.

Arians and Co. are facing an uphill battle next year.
 

Duckjake

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Post season thoughts, well not surprised by much of what has happened and no plans to rehash the whole Wis/Warner who cares about the superbowl 5 years ago anyhow. But in fairness when will we be relevant again?

I haven't felt this bad about the Cardinals in years and really there is no light at the end of the tunnel. We are in a division with two young power house teams, and one up and comer. Two very, very good head coaches, and despite Carrol being a jerk he ain't too shabby. When I saw what jobs were availible for coaches I honestly thought about where would I coach based on talent and division. I will not rank them, but the Cardinals were the bottom of the list. Offensively we have Larry, and don't kidd yourself about the rest. Defensively we have tallent, but a DC can destroy that in a heartbeat(enter Todd Bowles). I expect us to be drafting in the top 10 for the next 4 years, our recently fired regime of clowns have ensured we are in trouble for years.

There is hope. The 49ers hadn't had a winning season in 8 years, changed coaches and went from 6-10 to 13-3. The Cards had won only 25 games in five years, changed coaches and two years later were in the SB. The Cards were 4-2 in the Division in 2011. They won 11 of 13 games with the QBs we have now.

We have a veteran roster with real NFL talent that was severely hampered by poor offensive line coaching. I don't see this as being the same as the situation that Denny Green entered where he had almost no NFL quality talent and so went 5-11 for three years while they rebuilt the roster.

(It is a credit to someone that the Cards have for the most part rebuilt the roster from the mass exodus after the 2009 season. Warner, Berry, Okeafor, Rolle, Boldin, Dansby, Gandy, Hayes, Robinson, DRC, Reggie Wells, Breaston, Branch and Hightower were all gone by the start of the 2011 season. That's a lot of experience lost.)

On the other hand they also lost 11 of 12 with the current QBs and I'm concerned that Arians is simply Whisenhunt part II and continues to illustrate Michael Bidwill's fascination with the Pittsburgh franchise. Though if you are going to emulate someone they are not a bad choice. Hopefully the new Oline coaches will improve the offense enough to offset any loss on the defensive side from Horton being gone.

So I'm not mainlining the Kool Aid like some here are but I'm also not thinking we are in dire straits as a franchise and destined for yet another 5-11 years of 5-11.
 

D-Dogg

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We have a quality defense, a hall of fame WR and two other good WRs, a young TE and a good blocking TE.

That's about 65% of the way there:

Missing: Solid Oline, QB, RB (though RB is really a function of the Oline, IMO).

So IMO we aren't that bad, but we have three glaring issues on the offensive side of the ball. The oline will be fixed/improved this year, and I would bet RB improves along with it. QB is the question mark, but today we are a slightly above average talent team that was poorly coached.

We now have a staff full of offensive gurus, QB masters and focus on the Oline. Where we are next season would be, I expect, above average.
 

D-Dogg

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There is hope. The 49ers hadn't had a winning season in 8 years, changed coaches and went from 6-10 to 13-3. The Cards had won only 25 games in five years, changed coaches and two years later were in the SB. The Cards were 4-2 in the Division in 2011. They won 11 of 13 games with the QBs we have now.

We have a veteran roster with real NFL talent that was severely hampered by poor offensive line coaching. I don't see this as being the same as the situation that Denny Green entered where he had almost no NFL quality talent and so went 5-11 for three years while they rebuilt the roster.

(It is a credit to someone that the Cards have for the most part rebuilt the roster from the mass exodus after the 2009 season. Warner, Berry, Okeafor, Rolle, Boldin, Dansby, Gandy, Hayes, Robinson, DRC, Reggie Wells, Breaston, Branch and Hightower were all gone by the start of the 2011 season. That's a lot of experience lost.)

On the other hand they also lost 11 of 12 with the current QBs and I'm concerned that Arians is simply Whisenhunt part II and continues to illustrate Michael Bidwill's fascination with the Pittsburgh franchise. Though if you are going to emulate someone they are not a bad choice. Hopefully the new Oline coaches will improve the offense enough to offset any loss on the defensive side from Horton being gone.

So I'm not mainlining the Kool Aid like some here are but I'm also not thinking we are in dire straits as a franchise and destined for yet another 5-11 years of 5-11.

:stick:
 

desertdawg

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If our O-line continues to improve on where they left off last year, we are going to be way better, and we have the coaches to do that. If we keep Kolb and get a real back up QB (SAY ONE THAT CAN PLAY FOOTBALL), we are talking above .500 and anything can happen at that point.
 

82CardsGrad

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We have a quality defense, a hall of fame WR and two other good WRs, a young TE and a good blocking TE.

That's about 65% of the way there:

Missing: Solid Oline, QB, RB (though RB is really a function of the Oline, IMO).

So IMO we aren't that bad, but we have three glaring issues on the offensive side of the ball. The oline will be fixed/improved this year, and I would bet RB improves along with it. QB is the question mark, but today we are a slightly above average talent team that was poorly coached.

We now have a staff full of offensive gurus, QB masters and focus on the Oline. Where we are next season would be, I expect, above average.

Yea... great. We'll just have to continue to hope our defense out-scores our opponents... :bang:

Also, I don't know the actual number, but... how many 1st rounders do the 9ers have starting and contributing in big ways on their team, particularly on offense?
While we have.... um.... Fitz? Sure, we have roughly 60% of what is needed to be a contender. However, the 40% or so that remains is really akin to having 90% of what is needed, as we SUCK SO BAD in the 40% area....
 

Cardsfanstl

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As things stand right now we are a mess with our O-line and QB. Also I am skeptical of our defense now has to learn a new scheme with Horton being gone.
 

Mulli

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Honesty? We are so bad....I got nothing. The Cardinals are just terrible.
 

RugbyMuffin

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I think one big fat agree is in order for this thread.

All the things noted above.

About a year away from competing outside of our division and at the very least 2 years from competing in our own division.
 

ARZCardinals

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A few injuries and a few lucky ball bounces and anything can happen.

but straight up if everyone is healthy on every team...there's no chance.
 

HookemCards

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I think we are screwed next year for sure, so may as well cut bait on some of these guys to save some future cap space, and let the young guys we bring in learn on the job. May as well keep Kolb for next year and let him get pounded, no need to beat up our young QBs behind what promises to be a fairly bad line and an offense that kills the QB.

I do think we have the potential to compete in 2014 though. Kaepernick, Wilson are likely to miss some time with there style, and Bradford is fragile.

We need a couple of solid starters to replace some aging guys on D, a pass rushing OLB and the defense is set. I'm curious to what BA and TM think of our line.
 

jf-08

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We are 2 recruiting classes from rising up from Div II.
 

D-Dogg

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Yea... great. We'll just have to continue to hope our defense out-scores our opponents... :bang:

Also, I don't know the actual number, but... how many 1st rounders do the 9ers have starting and contributing in big ways on their team, particularly on offense?
While we have.... um.... Fitz? Sure, we have roughly 60% of what is needed to be a contender. However, the 40% or so that remains is really akin to having 90% of what is needed, as we SUCK SO BAD in the 40% area....


2006 6 Vernon Davis TE
2007 26 Joe Staley OT
2009 10 Michael Crabtree WR
2010 11 Anthony Davis OT
17 Mike Iupati G
2012 30 A. J. Jenkins WR

There are the number one picks on offense that start for the Niners. They drafted several OT, we did not. The end. That was the death knell for Whis. Ignored the OL, and QB. The niners drafted Alex in 2005, then jumped us to draft Kaep in 2011. Another death knell for Whis.

We have Levi (woop) Larry and Floyd (who will be better than Crabtree after he seasons a couple of years). We start Beanie, for now, but he sucks.

Frank Gore was a third round pick. You can rattle off tons of RBs that are good that were taken in 3-6. So I'm not concerned about RB getting fixed. That will happen in due course. Look what BA did with Vick Ballard out of the 5th round.

So dig deep and look at OT, OG, QB. Two of those positions CAN be fixed in this draft. It is so deep. And do what SF did, trade up and get some more.

For those that are talking about how we need a QB so bad, look what SF did. They had a first round draft pick QB in Alex, he sucked. They built their oline, got a good coach and even Alex looked good. They kept drafting QBs and replaced the first round pick with a second rounder that's even better. They added their WR "studs" in the first round, and we've already done that.

Fix the OL, it is crucial to success. There is NO better year to do it than now. None. IF we address the OL in this draft, we can turn this ship around relatively quickly. If we widdle waddle around and reach for a freaking QB without shoring up the OL, we are in for a continual period of suck.

We are at a tipping point. Where we are right now, given the strength of this draft and our needs, we aren't so bad off. But it all depends on our decisions.
 

Catfish

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Post season thoughts, well not surprised by much of what has happened and no plans to rehash the whole Wis/Warner who cares about the superbowl 5 years ago anyhow. But in fairness when will we be relevant again?

I haven't felt this bad about the Cardinals in years and really there is no light at the end of the tunnel. We are in a division with two young power house teams, and one up and comer. Two very, very good head coaches, and despite Carrol being a jerk he ain't too shabby. When I saw what jobs were availible for coaches I honestly thought about where would I coach based on talent and division. I will not rank them, but the Cardinals were the bottom of the list. Offensively we have Larry, and don't kidd yourself about the rest. Defensively we have tallent, but a DC can destroy that in a heartbeat(enter Todd Bowles). I expect us to be drafting in the top 10 for the next 4 years, our recently fired regime of clowns have ensured we are in trouble for years.

Honestly, We are not as bad as most people think. Our talent level, (including O-linemen), wasn't that bad, especially those we drafted. With a coaching philosophy of coach-em up, and fit them in to play, instead of Whiz' plug em in and play-em, we just might bring some untapped talent to the forefront. I also like that BA wants to incorporate more of a zone blocking scheme. That might go pretty far to solve some of our O-line woes.

If BA's QB gurus can get some production from that position, we might just have a significant improvement in the W-L column from last year. Our drafts have been graded out as pretty sound even during the Whiz years. Our talent level is almost assuredly better than what has been coached out of them so far. I'm not so sure about the talent level of the free agents we have taken, but at least the drafted players have some up-side. This might just become interesting. Hang in there for a little longer, you might be surprised.
 

SeattleCard

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Our biggest problem lies in the fact that the NFC West is now a powerhouse, and we are on the bottom.
 

D-Dogg

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As things stand right now we are a mess with our O-line and QB. Also I am skeptical of our defense now has to learn a new scheme with Horton being gone.

The scheme will be similar. Not exactly the same, but similar. Base 3-4. They aren't going to a 4-3.
 

Gottalean

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If we can make the line better we will be good, it all depends on how we go about it in the draft and FA. But if we land a franchise QB which is ultimately. more important, IMO we will be back in the playoffs. I mean look at what Warner did? That alone is proof but with 3 Pro bowlers and 2 on the defensive side I am optimistic about this team.
 

Chopper0080

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We are a mess IMO.

On defense we have holes at ILB, SS and depth issues at NT and OLB.

On offense we are much worse. We currently major issues with starters at QB, RB and all along the OL.

To top it off we are no longer playing in the NFC Worst. SF and Seattle are playoff caliber teams and the Rams are making good moves as well.

Arians and Co. are facing an uphill battle next year.

I will disagree a bit.

We need a QB and that is the biggest issue.

We need to be able to run the ball which means we need to get stronger and more athletic in our interior offensive line. Not impossible, but we need to use resources to get this done.

We need a pass rusher so we don't have to blitz as much.

We need to figure out our RB situation. Not impossible, but we need answers rather than more questions. (Which is why I wouldn't be shocked if we added a guy like Stepfan Taylor).

We need to figure out our plan to transition from older players like Adrian Wilson, Darnell Dockett, Kerry Rhodes, Nick Eason, Vonnie Holliday, and Paris Lenon.

Maybe not all of this can be done in one offseason, but we should be able to get a good start on it.
 

JeffGollin

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We have a quality defense, a hall of fame WR and two other good WRs, a young TE and a good blocking TE.

That's about 65% of the way there:

Missing: Solid Oline, QB, RB (though RB is really a function of the Oline, IMO).

So IMO we aren't that bad, but we have three glaring issues on the offensive side of the ball. The oline will be fixed/improved this year, and I would bet RB improves along with it. QB is the question mark, but today we are a slightly above average talent team that was poorly coached.

We now have a staff full of offensive gurus, QB masters and focus on the Oline. Where we are next season would be, I expect, above average.
That.

But we're in faster company in our division than we were before we made the SB run. And we'll need our luck to break somewhere north of 50-50 (i.e. the best laid plans...)
 

D-Dogg

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We need a QB and that is the biggest issue.

I disagree - like the Niners, I think our biggest issue is OL. They had a bust QB on their roster, yet they stacked their OL in draft after draft. Then their bust QB played well.

We can't pass the ball or run the ball - that's OL. And this so happens to be a horrifying QB draft class and a stellar OL class. Fix the OL, we will be set for long term success. Reach for QB, we will find ourselves looking for a QB and a new coach again in 3-4 years. Simple as that, IMO.

I'll take Wilson in the second round, but no way at 7. If there can be some trades to get more picks in the first, ok, maybe, but not if there is a blue chip OL staring us in the face at 7.
 

Chopper0080

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I disagree - like the Niners, I think our biggest issue is OL. They had a bust QB on their roster, yet they stacked their OL in draft after draft. Then their bust QB played well.

We can't pass the ball or run the ball - that's OL. And this so happens to be a horrifying QB draft class and a stellar OL class. Fix the OL, we will be set for long term success. Reach for QB, we will find ourselves looking for a QB and a new coach again in 3-4 years. Simple as that, IMO.

I'll take Wilson in the second round, but no way at 7. If there can be some trades to get more picks in the first, ok, maybe, but not if there is a blue chip OL staring us in the face at 7.

Pass protection is mostly on the QB not the offensive line. Good QBs make their pass protection look better than it actually is.

Running the ball is a reflection of your interior offensive line. Our lack of talent inside makes our RBs look worse than they are.

Our offensive strength is in Fitz, Roberts, Housler, and Floyd. A quality QB makes those guys more impactful more than an OT will. And don't kid yourself on San Fran, we don't have their defense. Their defense made Alex Smith look better than he was because Alex Smith could run a draw on 3rd and long and consider a punt a good option. Same goes for Kaepernick. The defense allows him to try and make plays down the field or with his feet, more than his line does. Their line is very good, but it is more impactful to their running game than their passing game IMO.
 

82CardsGrad

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2006 6 Vernon Davis TE
2007 26 Joe Staley OT
2009 10 Michael Crabtree WR
2010 11 Anthony Davis OT
17 Mike Iupati G
2012 30 A. J. Jenkins WR

There are the number one picks on offense that start for the Niners. They drafted several OT, we did not. The end. That was the death knell for Whis. Ignored the OL, and QB. The niners drafted Alex in 2005, then jumped us to draft Kaep in 2011. Another death knell for Whis.

We have Levi (woop) Larry and Floyd (who will be better than Crabtree after he seasons a couple of years). We start Beanie, for now, but he sucks.

Frank Gore was a third round pick. You can rattle off tons of RBs that are good that were taken in 3-6. So I'm not concerned about RB getting fixed. That will happen in due course. Look what BA did with Vick Ballard out of the 5th round.

So dig deep and look at OT, OG, QB. Two of those positions CAN be fixed in this draft. It is so deep. And do what SF did, trade up and get some more.

For those that are talking about how we need a QB so bad, look what SF did. They had a first round draft pick QB in Alex, he sucked. They built their oline, got a good coach and even Alex looked good. They kept drafting QBs and replaced the first round pick with a second rounder that's even better. They added their WR "studs" in the first round, and we've already done that.

Fix the OL, it is crucial to success. There is NO better year to do it than now. None. IF we address the OL in this draft, we can turn this ship around relatively quickly. If we widdle waddle around and reach for a freaking QB without shoring up the OL, we are in for a continual period of suck.

We are at a tipping point. Where we are right now, given the strength of this draft and our needs, we aren't so bad off. But it all depends on our decisions.

Sorry dude... no way can I get on that bullet-train you're riding... We not only need to fix the o-line, but, our QBOF isn't on our team right now!
As for your analogy of what the 9ers did with Smith at the helm, Smith is > any QB on our roster at present, including Kolb.
So, we have to not only revamp our o-line, but we also have to somehow address the QB position as well. Oh, and our RB situation is horrid as well. The 9ers have Gore who is 1,000,000,000x better than any RB we have on our roster.

The rebuilding process for the Cards will not be quick. My prediction is we will not see the playoffs for at least the next 4 years... probably longer. In part, because we suck so badly... and in part, because the Hawks and the 9ers have become beasts who will literally kick our asses 4 times a year. And of course, the Rams are coming now too...we'd be lucky to split with them each season.
 

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