How long until the Suns are back in the playoffs? - Page 2

ASUCHRIS · April 6th, 2011, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheesebeef

someone who no other team thinks is a MAX player so we overspend to get him?

Well, yes. There are plenty of max players that are far more questionable, and Amare would rank among somewhere in the middle among max players. I'm not arguing that Amare is a perfect max option, but other than Lebron/Durant/Wade/Rose/Howard, who else would you say is an obvious max player, and clearly better than Amare? I'd be interested to see your list.

Again, Amare has his flaws, but you never know when our next star player will come. It may not be for awhile. Bird in the hand theory...

cheesebeef · April 6th, 2011, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASUCHRIS

Well, yes. There are plenty of max players that are far more questionable, and Amare would rank among somewhere in the middle among max players. I'm not arguing that Amare is a perfect max option, but other than Lebron/Durant/Wade/Rose/Howard, who else would you say is an obvious max player, and clearly better than Amare? I'd be interested to see your list.

Again, Amare has his flaws, but you never know when our next star player will come. It may not be for awhile. Bird in the hand theory...

oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not even talking about an Amare type player. I see us getting really desperate at some point and signing the equivalent of a Zach Randolph type stat stuffer/low impact guy to a MAX deal.

ASUCHRIS · April 6th, 2011, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheesebeef

oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not even talking about an Amare type player. I see us getting really desperate at some point and signing the equivalent of a Zach Randolph type stat stuffer/low impact guy to a MAX deal.

Exactly my point, which is why I think it would be much better to roll the dice. I totally expect us to end up with a ton of cash, then wasting it like Detroit on the Ben Gordon/Chuck Villenueva poo poo platter.

With Amare, it's pretty obvious what a difference he made, with essentially the same team. With him, we were a game away from the finals, without him, an also ran in the West. I just have no confidence in the current regime to figure out a better option than re-signing Amare despite the risks, especially because they got rid of Kerr. The Kerr loss angered me almost as much as Amare.

Chaplin · April 6th, 2011, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASUCHRIS

Well, yes. There are plenty of max players that are far more questionable, and Amare would rank among somewhere in the middle among max players. I'm not arguing that Amare is a perfect max option, but other than Lebron/Durant/Wade/Rose/Howard, who else would you say is an obvious max player, and clearly better than Amare? I'd be interested to see your list.

Again, Amare has his flaws, but you never know when our next star player will come. It may not be for awhile. Bird in the hand theory...

And what would your attitude be in 3 years when we would have to pay MAX money to a player that will barely play because his knees have went out on him? Even if he does figure out a way to play--he'll be Chris Webber in those last 2 years. And I certainly didn't want that. The Suns took a practical approach to the Amare negotiations, but New York just said "screw it" and took a huge chance.

And now that Carmelo is DOMINATING the team now over there, Amare is now second fiddle. But hey, he's making 20 million a year, and in NYC, so it's all good.

slinslin · April 6th, 2011, 10:56 AM

My guess is that Kerr wanted to rebuild the team in his own way and Sarver let him go because he does not want to rebuild and be bad for a while...

slinslin · April 6th, 2011, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaplin

And what would your attitude be in 3 years when we would have to pay MAX money to a player that will barely play because his knees have went out on him? Even if he does figure out a way to play--he'll be Chris Webber in those last 2 years. And I certainly didn't want that. The Suns took a practical approach to the Amare negotiations, but New York just said "screw it" and took a huge chance.

And now that Carmelo is DOMINATING the team now over there, Amare is now second fiddle. But hey, he's making 20 million a year, and in NYC, so it's all good.

Who the hell cares? The Suns could have traded Amare this season for ten times the value that they got by signing Childress and Warrick.

Even if Amare's knees become an issue again letting him go will never be justified because the same money was spent on Warrick, Childress and Frye. 2 Players who we couldn't care less about and one decent role player.

Griffin · April 6th, 2011, 11:44 AM

If the Suns trade Nash, it could very well be a long time before they make playoffs again. In fact, the current team we have, without Nash, would have a good shot at setting NBA record for fewest wins in a season. Not something to look forward to.

If the Suns keep Nash, they might sneak into the playoffs next year as one of the last seeds, or miss out like this year. Not something to look forward to either. This could change if the Suns somehow could manage to pick up a major all-star caliber player in the off-season, but that has not happened under Sarver.

The Suns have only missed playoffs four times in the last 23 seasons. But twice now under Sarver, and counting. The team he inherited had Amare, Marion, Joe Johnson, and just acquired Nash. That's four all-stars in their primes. In his time, he let all but Nash go, without adding a single comparable player in return.

Quote:

Originally Posted by slinslin

And the 4th best record is meaningless.

We have 2 finals appearances to show for it and no title.

So would you consider the Suns more successful overall had they won a title, say back in '76, and only made a handful of playoff appearances since then?

slinslin · April 6th, 2011, 11:48 AM

The bottom line is always titles and nothing else.

Nobody cares if you squeaked into the playoffs many times and won many regular season games but often got eliminated in the first or second round.

ASUCHRIS · April 6th, 2011, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaplin

And what would your attitude be in 3 years when we would have to pay MAX money to a player that will barely play because his knees have went out on him?

Completely speculative on your part. Amare has been played to death this year by Mike D, and still has barely missed any time. There have been plenty of other really good players that have been injured this year and missed time. (CP, Boozer, Noah, Rudy Gay, etc...) Of course there is an injury risk associated with re-signing Stat, but that's the price you pay to stay competitive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaplin

Even if he does figure out a way to play--he'll be Chris Webber in those last 2 years.

Man, I really need to get access to your crystal ball, must be amazing! Again, completely speculative on your part. He could be just as effective as he is now by the end of the contract. You just don't know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaplin

The Suns took a practical approach to the Amare negotiations,

All hail practicality! Thank God we went the practical route, and went from competing for a Finals berth to paying 3 clowns more than Amare, and not even coming close to making the playoffs with bleak future prospects. I'm so glad we're so practical these days!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaplin

And now that Carmelo is DOMINATING the team now over there, Amare is now second fiddle. But hey, he's making 20 million a year, and in NYC, so it's all good.

And that's Amare's fault because... The problem ain't Amare. After putting up MVP numbers in the first half, "Coach" D has run him into the ground playing him insanely stupid minutes, and the Melo trade has been an unmitigated disaster.

cheesebeef · April 6th, 2011, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaplin

And what would your attitude be in 3 years when we would have to pay MAX money to a player that will barely play because his knees have went out on him?

this is wild speculation at this point, especially in a world where guys are playing more and more after these surgeries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaplin

Even if he does figure out a way to play--he'll be Chris Webber in those last 2 years.

you can't say this with ANY degree of certainty. Dude seems to be getting stronger and stronger the further he's getting away from the surgery. Webber's surgery came a couple years before Amare's AND he was MUCH older when it happened. I don't think there's really any basis to make a comparison between the two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaplin

And I certainly didn't want that. The Suns took a practical approach to the Amare negotiations, but New York just said "screw it" and took a huge chance.

And now that Carmelo is DOMINATING the team now over there, Amare is now second fiddle. But hey, he's making 20 million a year, and in NYC, so it's all good.

just because the Knicks were stupid and handed the keys to the castle over to Melo doesn't mean Amare didn't turn that team around before Dolan nuked the entire team.

AzStevenCal · April 6th, 2011, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slinslin

The bottom line is always titles and nothing else.

Nobody cares if you squeaked into the playoffs many times and won many regular season games but often got eliminated in the first or second round.

That's just nonsense. Winning games may be meaningless to you but for those of us that watch each and every game it means a hell of a lot. Give us a title or two surrounded by 40 years of miserable basketball games and I'm sure not going to be happy. And, for the most part, I've been very happy as a Suns fan. It isn't just about titles, it's about building towards those titles.

Steve

cheesebeef · April 6th, 2011, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin

If the Suns trade Nash, it could very well be a long time before they make playoffs again. In fact, the current team we have, without Nash, would have a good shot at setting NBA record for fewest wins in a season. Not something to look forward to.

agreed. the downside is we'll be terrible. REALLY terrible. But the upside is we'll be bad enough to get really high draft picks and thus get impact players who can rebuild the team, giving us a future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin

If the Suns keep Nash, they might sneak into the playoffs next year as one of the last seeds, or miss out like this year. Not something to look forward to either. This could change if the Suns somehow could manage to pick up a major all-star caliber player in the off-season, but that has not happened under Sarver.

agreed as well. the downside here is we're not very good AND we never have a chance to draft great young talent needed to rebuild, and perpetually end up with picks late in the lottery where we've shown no ability whatsoever to identify any one of any merit. The upside is... NOTHING. This team doesn't have any pieces to pick up a major all-star caliber player.

there really shouldn't be ANY question as to what this team should do at this point.

elindholm · April 6th, 2011, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slinslin

The Suns could have traded Amare this season for ten times the value that they got by signing Childress and Warrick.

On his contract? Hell no. After the Knicks and Suns, Stoudemire had very few suitors at his price tag. It's true that Childress and Warrick appear to be bad signings, but that's a false comparison: Stoudemire makes more than twice as much as those two players put together, over the remainder of those deals.

Quote:

Even if Amare's knees become an issue again letting him go will never be justified because the same money was spent on Warrick, Childress and Frye. 2 Players who we couldn't care less about and one decent role player.

It's much, much easier to move a small bad contract than a huge one. Warrick is owed only $14 million over the next three years, and he has shown enough that his trade value isn't much less than zero. Childress looks like a mistake, but even if he doesn't turn it around, I'd much rather be stuck with his deal than with Stoudemire's. The Knicks are going nowhere, and the main reason is that neither Stoudemire nor Anthony is worth the contract he's on.

Superbone · April 6th, 2011, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzStevenCal

That's just nonsense. Winning games may be meaningless to you but for those of us that watch each and every game it means a hell of a lot. Give us a title or two surrounded by 40 years of miserable basketball games and I'm sure not going to be happy. And, for the most part, I've been very happy as a Suns fan. It isn't just about titles, it's about building towards those titles.

Bingo! We've actually had it pretty good. We've had a lot of fun along the way in spite of our lack of championships.

Ask a diehard Clippers' fan if they're jealous.

Actually, the Bucks are a good example. They had a championship back in 1971 but haven't had much success since then.

Griffin · April 6th, 2011, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheesebeef

agreed. the downside is we'll be terrible. REALLY terrible. But the upside is we'll be bad enough to get really high draft picks and thus get impact players who can rebuild the team, giving us a future.

Yes, but there is a risk involved there too. The Clippers, for example, have a high lottery pick virtually every season. The T-Wolves had been in the lottery for the past six years. Kings haven't made playoffs since '06. Warriors have one playoff appearance in the last 16 years. Lots of lottery picks there. Yet none of these teams, and there are many more examples, have ever been able to build a contender. Who is to say that the Suns and Sarver will do any better given a few high lottery picks?

I think there is an assumption that a few really bad years will result in a championship contender, but that is far from guaranteed. More likely, the few bad years will turn into a few more bad years and we won't be talking about titles, but about how great it used to be to have a team that made playoffs every year.

I am not saying that this will happen, or that there is a way to prevent this from happening regardless of what we do this summer, but it's a definite possibility.