Irish

I have very little use for combo stats, mostly because they are so hard to break down. Ordinarily I'd like to see a sensitity analysis and perhaps multiple regression, but PER is just a combination of stats.

I don't go as far as Diaw who only cares if the team wins, but stats taken in isolation are danagerous to use. The biggest problem in basketball is that it doesn't measure things like defense, effective picks, continuation passing, diving for loose balls, etc. Dirt work is a key to why some teams are successful and others aren't So rankings based ENTIRELY on stats are almost allways deceptive if not stupid.

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"I like to act decisively whenever I'm trying to get something done," Dumars said. "But I'm well aware that there has to be another team that's willing, and there has to be a good deal for both teams. Those two things will slow you down in doing a deal."

mojorizen7

This thread is

What would be really interesting is to take a private poll of all the starting centers in the league and ask them one question.
"Which NBA center do you hate to face the most?"
I guarantee that Shaq would be ranked higher than many of his younger, highly skilled, proven peers.
I would only be speculating but i would say that Shaq would only fall behind a few names like Duncan,Howard,Garnett....and Garnett isn't even a center but you get the point.
Shaq is still a beast to handle deep in the paint & thats where defenders get beat up, forced to hack or facialed. These are things that NBA players would most like to avoid.
Yao Ming? Puleeeze. He's doughboy soft.
Bynum? We'll see.
Is Al Horford abusing people in the paint?
Okefor?
Kamen?
Camby?
Chandler?
These are good centers IMO & as a GM of course you'd be a fool not to take one of these guys over Shaq in '2008 but i believe that Shaq would rate higher than all these guys if such a poll was to be taken.
Just sayin.

Thats why i hate using statistics to rate players sometimes. Just watch the games.
Point being is that while there are many centers that are better than the 38(?)yr old Shaq in terms of numbers and stamina etc..., his impact on opposing big men & anybody trying to guard him or have their way in the lane is still near the top IMO.

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"A quiet leader with a stern forceful hand, but still has a lot of humility about him. A calmness that resonates to the people around him in the middle of the storm. That’s the sports business we’re in and that makes for good leadership." Steve Kerr on HC Terry Porter
Eavesdropping on the St. Louis Rams Front Office
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU3D5C1XnV0

mojorizen7

You are an assho.....meh, nevermind.

__________________
"A quiet leader with a stern forceful hand, but still has a lot of humility about him. A calmness that resonates to the people around him in the middle of the storm. That’s the sports business we’re in and that makes for good leadership." Steve Kerr on HC Terry Porter
Eavesdropping on the St. Louis Rams Front Office
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU3D5C1XnV0

Maligzar

You sir have restored my faith a little in this board.

I think Okur got robbed, he should be ranked above Shaq. He abused Shaq last night.

To be fair you would expect Shaq's PER to rise if he plays an entire season with a good team.

JCSunsfan

No it is not. His list is based upon what he PROJECTS the players PER will be this year.

You might want to read the article before you start pronouncing CRAP over everyone's posts.

msdundee

It would be a lot more interesting to take a private poll of all the starting centers in the league and add two more words to your question:
"Which NBA center do you hate to face the most........and why?"

Most likely Shaq would be "ranked higher than many of his younger, highly skilled, proven peers" in such a poll. And nobody would argue his "impact on opposing big men and anybody trying to guard him or have their way in the lane."

But let's get honest about the "and why" part, just for a change. Shaq still has some moves, and he sometimes demonstrates real agility for a big man, but nothing that's necessarily that much better or more impressive than some of the others. The biggest reason opponents have trouble stopping him or getting past him in the lane is that he's so B-I-G, as he reminded everyone in the video. With the exception of Yao, Shaq outweighs every other center on your list by 50 to 90 pounds--and that's assuming he's at the 325 they list every year in his bio, no matter what he weighs.

Hollinger's PER has nothing to do with Shaq's single most effective remaining big asset () ..... his size.

da_suns_fan

Hollinger hits the nail on the head with how ineffective Shaq has become.

He has a ridiculous turnover rate yet he continues to take up plenty of possessions.

Of course, whats worse is how many times Shaq gets fouled and misses both free throws. This should be a turnover as well (Hollinger does use it as part of his true shooting percentage but its not weighted as bad as a turnover). Plus when he gets the ball everyone else stops moving an our offense gets out of sync.

Also, Shaq makes stupid fouls that get us into the penalty quicker.

I would rather have anyone of those guys ranked above him, and thats not even factoring in how much our hands are tied due to the size of his salary.

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The Phoenix Suns: Paying for the Miami Heat's 2006 title since 2008.

Superbone

But other than that, you're a big Shaq fan, right?

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Stoudemire's basket attacks are among the most violent in the league.

-Marc Stein

TJ UofA2004

....which proves my point that his PER is baseless and nonessential.

Why are you so uptight?

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HooverDam

Right, didn't I say that in my post? Lets look at the tape:

Yep, there it was, I said Hollinger was making projections about what the players PER was going to be this year, based on last years PER and generally reasonable assumptions (i.e. Shaqs will decline a bit because of age).

My point is, no where is Hollinger stating that he projects Shaq as the leagues #24 Center.


I'm not being uptight, its just insane that the thread went as long as it did with literally every single person either 1. not reading what the actual article said or 2. not understanding the article. I'd hope our fair board here has a bit more intelligence than all of that.

Irish

Either you buy into the value of PER or you don't.

As for Shaq's stats, half the season he was with the worst team in the NBA and a big part of his time in Phoenix he was stuck in a radically differnt offense with no preseason preparation. Would his stats be the same the last 20 games of the regular season?

Did Okur "abuse" Shaq last night? Okur is an outside shooter, so I'd expect him to shoot OK. The only guys that did well for the Jazz were outside shooters: Okur, Korver, and Almond. But the guys who attack the basket weren't:

Williams 3-8
Brewer 1-2
AK 1-3
Miles 1-5
Milsap 3-8
Price 1-4

Overall the Jazz shot 42.3%.

__________________
"I like to act decisively whenever I'm trying to get something done," Dumars said. "But I'm well aware that there has to be another team that's willing, and there has to be a good deal for both teams. Those two things will slow you down in doing a deal."

HooverDam

I'm not sure if you're directing this at me or not. I'm not making any value judgement about PER in this thread (I happen to think its a neat stat, but nothing to base a whole ton off of), only that Hollinger isn't saying Shaq is the #24 center in the league. If Shaq was #25 among Centers in blocks or something, and someone mentioned this, they aren't saying he's the 25th best guy, just 25th in that category.