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Bill Cartright was more oa box out guy than a high rebounder. His career rebounding of 6.3 rpg was pretty average but he played with some good rebounders like Horrace Grant (up to 10 with Cartright and 11 after Bill left)
In 1994-95 the Bulls won 47 games. In 1995-06 they won 72 games. In 1994-95 they were +1 net rebounding. In 1995-06 they were +6.6 in net rebounding due almost entirely to adding Dennis Rodman. Rodman averaged:
DETROIT
1990-91 12.5
1991-92 18.7
1992-93 18.3
SAN ANTONIO
1993-94 17.3 - 55 wins
1994-95 16.6 - 62 wins
Rodman was a total pain, but he was undoubtedly the best rebounder of his era. For a guy who was 6'7" 210 and not a super leaper, his strength was mostly technique. I'm surprised there isn't a training video based on learning what he knew. From a few interviews I got some of his approach, but I know I'm only scratching the surface.
1. Go after every rebound. He was too small to block out, so he went for every ball.
2. Know your shooters. Some guys shoot a flat shot and other guys put a lot of arc.. Some guys tend to miss long and others short. Some guys miss one side or the other depending on if he's moving or standing still. In each case, knowing the shooter means being able to anticipate how the ball will go after a miss.
3. Watch where the ball is being shot from. A ball shot from the left wing is likely to go right on a miss. Not always of course, but the odds are that a long shot from the right when missed will go to the left just a big shorter than when shot. A guy with a flat tragectory will go further than one with an arc, but unless it is really flat will tend to go left.
4. Watch the shooter and not the ball. Rodman could get rebounds well away from where he was when the ball was shot. He got accused of leaving too early. But he'd always go to where he thought the ball might go and not wait for it to get to the rim.
Rodman had the added plus of playing with guys who understood blocking out. He also was asked to focus on what he did best and not on scoring where his 7.3 ppg career average was never met in the last half of his career.
Rodman was an amazing flake, but IMHO there is a lot that could be learned from him.
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"I like to act decisively whenever I'm trying to get something done," Dumars said. "But I'm well aware that there has to be another team that's willing, and there has to be a good deal for both teams. Those two things will slow you down in doing a deal."
Last edited by Irish; October 10th, 2008 at 12:58 PM.
You don't "teach" rebounding. It's all about positioning. That's what you teach.
That's my point. But what would make of topic called "Can you teach positioning?" Sounds like an erotic video.
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"I like to act decisively whenever I'm trying to get something done," Dumars said. "But I'm well aware that there has to be another team that's willing, and there has to be a good deal for both teams. Those two things will slow you down in doing a deal."
Rebounding is about getting good position and how to hold that position, and that can be taught. Cartwright was a poor rebounder, dont know what he knows about it, 6.3/game is terrible for a 7 footer. Holding and taking position under the boards takes strength and technique. The technique involves using your strength to full effect and using your opponents strength against him to take his balance. rodman was an even better rebounder since he used so little energy on offense, like none. He would not have been as effective if he had to grind it out on the low block on offense.
You don't "teach" rebounding. It's all about positioning. That's what you teach.
I agree about the positioning part, however, it seems many good rebounders almost instinctively know where the ball will come off the rim and are in position to grab it. Also they also seem to have that special attitude that the rebound belongs to them. I think an instinctive rebounder usually wins a matchup with a position rebounder because they just react more quickly, which usually means getting there first.
__________________ If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging. -Will Rogers
I agree about the positioning part, however, it seems many good rebounders almost instinctively know where the ball will come off the rim and are in position to grab it. Also they also seem to have that special attitude that the rebound belongs to them. I think an instinctive rebounder usually wins a match up with a position rebounder because they just react more quickly, which usually means getting there first.
I think Rodman's rebounding did go beyond just good positioning and seemed to involved "learned instincts". But there is no doubt desire played a big role.
Cartright played with good rebounders with the Bulls and seemed to focus on blocking out; so I'm not sure his stats are that bad. He rebounded better before he came to the Bulls. I don't know what he can teach, but I'd settle for solid positioning compared to previous years.
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"I like to act decisively whenever I'm trying to get something done," Dumars said. "But I'm well aware that there has to be another team that's willing, and there has to be a good deal for both teams. Those two things will slow you down in doing a deal."
rebounding, going for lose balls, and defending can be taught. everything can be taught. whether the student will learn or excel will depend on a couple of factors. one being desire to actually learn, the other one being the discipline to make it a habit. while i believe that there are people that are born with it, just because you're not "gifted" doesn't mean you can't be good...
back in hs when i used to play bball daily to the point that i was cutting classes, i could brag that i was one of the leading rebounders and and shot blockers in our area. now after a couple of years, my jump didn't decrease and neither did my height get shorter but i can't do the things i used to do anymore. i guess what i'm saying is that "instinct" can be acquired through habit. you know how good rebounders seem to know where the ball would fall after a missed shot? or how someone like raja bell who isn't really a quick guy can keep up with younger fellas? should a player dedicate his effort to a certain aspect of the game and make it a habit, not only would he improve his instincts, he could improve his "cheap tricks" (it's almost, if not a must in nba)
Rodman was a great position rebounder but he didn't waste his time butting the opponent with his behind, he tangled his arms with the opponents arms then controlled his movement. It irritated the opponents so much they pushed him away and got called for fouls and eventually they had to keep away from him - the ultimate form of blocking out. Of course, he was a master at holding and elbowing others off balance without detection but his main weapon was the arm tangle.
For a mid-sized player like Rodman or Marion, having a very quick jump is probably among the most important attributes.
Every great rebounder has his own tricks. Garnett uses positioning and his length. Barkley knew the angles. Rodman reacted extremely quickly. Moses Malone used his bulk to create space.
I've always understood that a player's offense comes naturally overtime whereas defense is studied by the books (watching film, actually practicing defense). It's like that for MOST players. Take Shaq for example, he can't shoot a free basket, that's natural.
At 5'10" I used to get rebounds from guys that were 6'8" to 6'10". It's all about boxing out and technique. In fact, many a time if you box out and back your man up as you do it, you can get rebounds after they have bounced on the ground once. It's all about effort and desire.
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Yuma's Dad RIP 03/22/07
I still have a gut feeling Shaq will be better next season (2008/2009) after our docs have a full off season to work their magic on the Big Saguaro!
• Diaw had four games without an assist last season but started the preseason without one in the first two games. He had two Saturday but has been active, grabbing 18 rebounds in the past two games.
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"I like to act decisively whenever I'm trying to get something done," Dumars said. "But I'm well aware that there has to be another team that's willing, and there has to be a good deal for both teams. Those two things will slow you down in doing a deal."
it all depends - i was a pretty good rebounder because I had the desire to fight for the ball and loved it when thing got physical in the post
i was generally a taller guy on the court, but definitely not the strongest - however, leverage can aid in that
it definitely can be taught though, but as with anything there is no magic formula that will work with anyone
things that are important for all would be knowing the shooter and ball angles - you can have the best box out in the world, but it doesn't matter if all it does is open a lane for someone else to come in and take the rebound
footwork is huge - it establishes your base and good footwork gets you to the ball quicker
then start to focus on the strengths/weaknesses of a player - should they be a box our player like bill russell, floating rebounder like rodman, a bull like barkley or malone (pick one)
also if I was coaching a guy who was 6'8" and was losing rebounds to a 5'10" guy he'd be getting worked over in practice until that was fixed
no way you should have a 10" advantage on someone and not have enough leverage. strength or smarts to win that battle every time
i played intramurals with one of my buddies in college who was on the lax team - guy was about 5'6", but had tree trunk legs and was very good at battling for position - most of the time I could use arm length to tip the ball over him if he did have good position or use his force against him ......... if it wasn't a friendly league i probably would of given him a good elbow and knee the first time he tried to get really low
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